Next Herder?? ACD/Aussie?? Kelpie/Koolie?

[Emily]

I think she's referring to "Edge" or "sharp" which tends to refer to a natural desire for guarding, environmental awareness, and wariness /caution. I have known more aussies with an edge than without. These aspects make a fantastic guard dog and sometimes make for a dog that can be more serious in sport, referring to bite sports. My PSA/FR Malinois is extremely edgey, she's also very socially acceptable, IMO a perfect balance. She takes Bitework as real fight and has been called a "nasty Tasmanian devil bitch", however this doesn't effect her agility and she joyously works hard.

Yep, I don't even need a dog who is particularly serious in bitework as long as the prey drive (and fight for the prey) is high enough, but I do prefer dogs that have some hardness, some wariness, some sharpness. Both my herder girls are social but the underlying watchfulness remains, which I appreciate.

Totally not an insult and just a matter of different strokes. My experience with Aussies has been much the same as Adrianne's, which is why I posed the question about Koolies.

 

[SaraB]

Yep, I don't even need a dog who is particularly serious in bitework as long as the prey drive (and fight for the prey) is high enough, but I do prefer dogs that have some hardness, some wariness, some sharpness. Both my herder girls are social but the underlying watchfulness remains, which I appreciate.

Totally not an insult and just a matter of different strokes. My experience with Aussies has been much the same as Adrianne's, which is why I posed the question about Koolies.

I got ya, just a difference in understanding of a term.

 

[FG167]

We must be talking about a different kind of edge then. *shrug* I have not met many Koolies at all but the ones I have do not posses the kind of edge or hardness I desire in my dogs. From what Falon has said about her preferences in dogs, and why she does not want an Aussie (and why she is attracted to Mals, GSDs, ACDs, etc), I'm surmising that she might feel that same, but only she can clarify.

And yes, I was saying that Koolies lack natural aggression and guardiness, which are things I desire in my dogs and part of what I consider "edge." It's not meant as an insult.

Hmm, I think I'm somewhere in between the two descriptions. I think of "edge" with Mals/GSDs as definitely containing some natural aggression/guardiness. HOWEVER, when I think of "edge" in breeds that do not naturally have those tendencies, I am referring more to drive. Higher drive, not for everyone, can't be handled by just anyone etc.

I think of Zinga as having an edge. Oddly, Zuma did not strike me the same way. Sort of on the verge of being totally out of control - needs a strong, clear handler to be able to compete comfortably.

Kastle has a wonderful off-switch...and drive leaking out of his ears. Not everyone wants to, nor can, handle him JUST due to his drive level, not even taking his GSD-ness into consideration. I guess an explosive, excited, may-get-bit-because-of-enthusiasm kind of drive.

I *do* enjoy the guardiness and aggression in my GSDs, I do not need it for NextDog. I'm also ridiculously demanding on my IPO dog and MOST Mals I know, do not fit what I want in an IPO prospect so I think for the purposes of next agility dog, a non-bitesport prospect would do just fine. I have two IPO dogs that I'm fairly pleased with right now.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

That makes sense, yeah, we just refer to that as drive generally speaking. Drive is expected to overcome stress of challenge or environment. Either the dog has it and will perform all over or it doesn't and needs drive building or drive confidence.

That's interesting though learning how different breeds and sports use the same words for different things. Like the first time I heard gamey used by anyone not referring to a fighting pit bull having game. That was startling. lol

 

[Emily]

Hmm, I think I'm somewhere in between the two descriptions. I think of "edge" with Mals/GSDs as definitely containing some natural aggression/guardiness. HOWEVER, when I think of "edge" in breeds that do not naturally have those tendencies, I am referring more to drive. Higher drive, not for everyone, can't be handled by just anyone etc.

I think of Zinga as having an edge. Oddly, Zuma did not strike me the same way. Sort of on the verge of being totally out of control - needs a strong, clear handler to be able to compete comfortably.

Kastle has a wonderful off-switch...and drive leaking out of his ears. Not everyone wants to, nor can, handle him JUST due to his drive level, not even taking his GSD-ness into consideration. I guess an explosive, excited, may-get-bit-because-of-enthusiasm kind of drive.

I *do* enjoy the guardiness and aggression in my GSDs, I do not need it for NextDog. I'm also ridiculously demanding on my IPO dog and MOST Mals I know, do not fit what I want in an IPO prospect so I think for the purposes of next agility dog, a non-bitesport prospect would do just fine. I have two IPO dogs that I'm fairly pleased with right now.

This makes sense to me.

ETA:

That makes sense, yeah, we just refer to that as drive generally speaking. Drive is expected to overcome stress of challenge or environment. Either the dog has it and will perform all over or it doesn't and needs drive building or drive confidence.

Yeah this is like what I was thinking.

But thinking about it, Falon's explanation does make sense to me in regards to the term edge - like, there's a reason I rarely allow non-dog friends to tug with B, despite the fact that she is friendly with them, she's just... too much, too much teeth chattering, snatching, lacking a consistent "out" right now, bubbles over easily and needs a handler to help her have a brain. I can now see how that adds up to edgy, I just always called it driven/crazy. LOL. But ok, I can see it now.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Falon, get a mal and do ring. Do it or we can't be friends anymore. I'll even give you a Sloan puppy next year, don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[SaraB]

I think of Zinga as having an edge. Oddly, Zuma did not strike me the same way. Sort of on the verge of being totally out of control - needs a strong, clear handler to be able to compete comfortably.

This. So much this. I would not describe Zuma as having an edge at all. She has tons of drive though and will work through pretty much anything if she knows the game but she is far more sensitive than Zinga.

 

[Shai]

I think she's referring to "Edge" or "sharp" which tends to refer to a natural desire for guarding, environmental awareness, and wariness /caution.

In the admittedly limited time I've spent with a couple of the Koolies here, I would say they have the environmental awareness, intensity, and desire to engage, but without the wariness/suspicion, for the most part so their engagement looks totally different.

I felt more comfortable walking into Traveler's front yard, knowing he doesn't know me, with him a tethered intact male on home turf, than I do walking into a longtime friend's property with her Mal out even if she's out with him. They both engage, but one is intense and open to interaction whereas the other, despite knowing me very well and me being one of only a bare handful who can handle him when his people aren't around, may very well decide I did something inappropriate and would likely let me know, quite possibly with his teeth.

Just depends on your perspective. Me, I like a lot of Mals but don't want to deal with that kind of edge. And liability. Others love it. I prefer dogs with the intensity.

 

[SaraB]

That's the word Shai, intensity.

Zuma is intense when she knows the game, Zinga is intense all of the time.

ETA: with an appropriate off-switch of course.

 

[Fran101]

Lack of edge?
Sharpness?
Guardiness?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MY BIG FLUFFY BALL OF NINJA STEALTH?!

Lol ok, so maybe he isn't the hard edge and reserveness and wound tight spring people are looking for.

Not to say he isn't a spring because frankly he bounces everywhere lol

Just my 2 cents.. I think aussies are awesome, let me preface with that. And I just don't like the idea of people seeing them as stepping stones to more "serious" breeds or anything like that because honestly, I think they are quite splendid the way they are and I think that is a dangerous way to think and a great way to end up with the WRONG dog.
and if you get into them with the idea of "well they are a watered down version of ______" I think you will be disappointed. They are quite unique IMO and if you get into it expecting them to be calmer border collies or more human friendly ACDs for example then yea.. you are likely to feel a bit confused.

Working with Merlin is fun. It is lol and not in a "I find training to feel successful and it makes me feel accomplished to do it" way.
It is literally fun.
To Merlin, life is a game, training is fun and there are a few serious tasks he takes VERY seriously (which I've found to be true with many aussie owners I speak to)
It works for me, it works with the way I train and more importantly the way I live everyday.

I think the ASCA put it's wonderfully with..
" Their loyalty, drive, character, and whimsical sense of humor place them in a class by themselves"

tl;dr: Don't get an aussie because you want another version of something else. They are fun awesome dogs. Get an aussie because you want one.

Also, meet the dogs this breeder is producing because as with all herding breeds.. there is some variation in what you are going to find.

AKA: The breed standard says "reserved" and Merlin thinks the entire universe is his best friend and backing his butt onto people for butt scratches is an appropriate introduction

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I think intensity is definitely an across the board description.

I absolutely love my Malinois, I feel they are very correct and I wouldn't do it any other way, but they are a liability breed which takes extra handler steps like my pit bulls always have except instead of needing back up leashes, control spray, and special walk routes we now are careful to manage guard behaviors, encouraging them where we like them and managing elsewhere.

It's not the breed for everyone which prior to my joke is why even though I trust Falon above many to be able to handle the breed I'm not sure she wants one. Trust your gut, unless you find the right mal you'll likely be fighting an uphill battle keeping it as you desire.

 

[Fran101]

That's the word Shai, intensity.

Zuma is intense when she knows the game, Zinga is intense all of the time.

ETA: with an appropriate off-switch of course.

This is a great example, speaking of intensity.

At agility class, there are quite a few herding breeds.
If they were human beings racing cars or something, Merlin would be the one driving the course as fast as he can screaming
"WOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO THIS IS AWESOMEEEEEEEE!!! YESSSSSS!!!!!! PARTAAYYYYYYYYYYY!"

and I mean that literally.
You can always hear when an aussie is running a course.

What do you mean I'm not supposed to run with my mouth open?!
HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO BARK THEN?!

 

[Emily]

Lack of edge?
Sharpness?
Guardiness?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MY BIG FLUFFY BALL OF NINJA STEALTH?!

LOL I ****ing love him, he's so cute and seems like more fun than a barrel full of monkeys.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Aussies make noise? Wahhhhhh!?



A good friend who used to run aussies and now has a mal & BC was joking one day and said if a mal or BC barks on the course you know you messed up, if an Aussie barks its just running. lol

 

[Emily]

we now are careful to manage guard behaviors, encouraging them where we like them and managing elsewhere.

Too true, with their obsessive qualities and natural guarding behaviors, things can very out of hand very quickly if the handler doesn't take the reins regarding those behaviors. Blossom maaaay have tried to climb through our old wrought iron fence a few times before we got a handle on solid call offs and impulse control in the backyard. (And put a tarp across the wrought iron, LOL.) They are just a breed that needs fairly constant monitoring in those respects.

 

[Panzerotti]

I think intensity is definitely an across the board description.

I absolutely love my Malinois, I feel they are very correct and I wouldn't do it any other way, but they are a liability breed which takes extra handler steps like my pit bulls always have except instead of needing back up leashes, control spray, and special walk routes we now are careful to manage guard behaviors, encouraging them where we like them and managing elsewhere.

Yep. I know non- Mal people must get sick of us always saying, "It's a Mal thing," but really, it is a Mal thing. I don't care how many you've "been around," if you haven't owned one or personally trained one, you don't know what it's like.

Falon, get a mal and do ring. Do it or we can't be friends anymore. I'll even give you a Sloan puppy next year, don't say I didn't warn you.

This! Do it!!!!

 

[PWCorgi]

Not losing drive no matter the environment/distraction. Tendency to act first rather than think things through. I guess I see it more of a drive term, probably based on our difference in sports.

Okay, so ridiculously off-topic and purely out of curiosity, but....

I think our definitions of edge are similar? I definitely think about them more along these lines than the guardy/sharp lines that bitework people are thinking.

Based on that, do you think that Siri has edge? I only ask you because other than Megan and Ryan, I think you've spent the most time around her, and you have definitely seen her working/playing at disc more than anyone. Because to me, I feel like she is either on, or off. When she's on she is 100% about the game. Otherwise she stands there like I'm stupid. So is that drive/a drive issue? A motivation issue? Does that mean she lacks edge?

I'm honestly just curious to see what your thoughts are on her at this age.

 

[FG167]

That makes sense, yeah, we just refer to that as drive generally speaking. Drive is expected to overcome stress of challenge or environment. Either the dog has it and will perform all over or it doesn't and needs drive building or drive confidence.

That's interesting though learning how different breeds and sports use the same words for different things. Like the first time I heard gamey used by anyone not referring to a fighting pit bull having game. That was startling. lol

Yes but...I know loads of really nice, drivey BCs and they just...lack that edge, that spark, that extra Oomph that makes them click well with me.

there's a reason I rarely allow non-dog friends to tug with B, despite the fact that she is friendly with them, she's just... too much, too much teeth chattering, snatching, lacking a consistent "out" right now, bubbles over easily and needs a handler to help her have a brain. I can now see how that adds up to edgy, I just always called it driven/crazy. LOL. But ok, I can see it now.

Precisely! Even of my dog friends, only some get to EVER tug with Kastle. "Um excuse me, his grip is a problem, could you NOT let him tug that way"..."oh, he regripped on your hand and then HELD ON FOR DEAR LIFE? Awesome!" lol Not to mention even some GSD owners (not working-line) are overwhelmed by his...enthusiastic response to all things above his frustration threshold...which is almost all the things LOL I get, "wow, he seemed so sweet in the parking lot, but...he's a LOT of dog" when they see him about to work.

Falon, get a mal and do ring. Do it or we can't be friends anymore. I'll even give you a Sloan puppy next year, don't say I didn't warn you.

OMG do NOT tempt me. Plus, she'd probably have to do PSA because Ring clubs are a little rare around here. I would LOVE a Sloan puppy. Are you breeding her next year?????? Seriously, I would potentially make allll kinds of allowances for a dog with her temperament.

That's the word Shai, intensity.

Zuma is intense when she knows the game, Zinga is intense all of the time.

ETA: with an appropriate off-switch of course.

Yes! Intensity is the closest word I can agree with. And yes, that is exactly what I meant regarding Zinga.

Lack of edge?
Sharpness?
Guardiness?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MY BIG FLUFFY BALL OF NINJA STEALTH?!

Oh gosh, the cute! I totally think I could love an Aussie, but perhaps later. Or perhaps if just the right one came along. HOWEVER, it would be tricky so I may not play that gamble just yet. We'll see though, I don't know enough in person to make a determination. The working-herder ones are TOO serious, and too bark-bark frustrated whereas the show ones are just a touch too laid back. I enjoy a goofy dog, one that makes me laugh, but with that "edge" that lets me tap into them and really get going.

I am finding this conversation RIVETING btw

A friend has a really nice Border-Staffy, which I am also loosely considering...but, most people will only place in Flyball homes and I am not currently active in Flyball (although I do plan on that happening again sometime).

 

[FG167]

Yep. I know non- Mal people must get sick of us always saying, "It's a Mal thing," but really, it is a Mal thing. I don't care how many you've "been around," if you haven't owned one or personally trained one, you don't know what it's like.

Certain working-line GSDs are VERY similar. I had a Dutchie before Kastle, and I requested a DS in a GSD body, with better nerve. That's what I got. Kastle does NOTHING at less than 110%. He flings, jumps, flies, screams, runs, at the most power he can withstand. I am fairly certain he would do those things until he literally dropped dead if I didn't stop him. He bashed his teeth out on a dog's head going for a frisbee at 9 months old. Then he RETRIEVED THE FRISBEE. I so <3 that BUT, I want something smaller and with a good dog-neutral switch so that I can compete regularly and without worrying about venue (how big are the rings, how close are the people, how many dogs will we have to pass?).

Based on that, do you think that Siri has edge?

I do not know Siri, but in my opinion, MOST Terriers have the sort of edge I'm talking about. With a side of brat-opinion to boot. Terriers are pretty kickin' dogs!

Staffy is on the list as well but I KNOW NO Staffies that are doing agility - all that I know are doing Flyball and that's where their pups go. I'm also aware of some SSA/DA that can happen there, but for the ones I know, not a problem. HOWEVER, I despise their coat. I hate non-double coated dogs, their hair doesn't ball up into the corners so I can just pick them up, I would have to actually SWEEP :yikes: lol

The perfect rescue Pittie is also an option...my friend just got an AMAZING dog out of rescue...but I also really want a puppy so I can do all the fun formative puppy stuff...and puppies are such a crapshoot!

 

[Panzerotti]

BUT, I want something smaller and with a good dog-neutral switch so that I can compete regularly and without worrying about venue (how big are the rings, how close are the people, how many dogs will we have to pass?).

Ah, that's understandable.

The perfect rescue Pittie is also an option...my friend just got an AMAZING dog out of rescue...but I also really want a puppy so I can do all the fun formative puppy stuff...and puppies are such a crapshoot!

I am so tempted to get a rescue Pit one day as well. I go through the same dilemma in my mind too, it's cool to raise a dog from a pup, but you never *really* know what you're going to get. It's a tough call.