Next Herder?? ACD/Aussie?? Kelpie/Koolie?

[Shai]

If you have a particular breeder in mind for ACDs, it would depend on their particular dogs but as others have said I've known too many DA/DR/SSA ACDs to default recommend them for what you want. And depending on the body type they don't always make good agility dogs. But they are a cool breed if you are picky with what you get.

I've only met three related Koolies so can't speak to that. A Traveler clone would probably fit your list but if there is a Traveler clone he is MINE

Aussies again probably varies based on line. Some are pretty goofy lol. One with recent working lines, though...there are some very fun Aussies in this world. Stable, drivey, just enough assholeness to be fun, appropriate in social settings...

That reminds me of the dog snobs post "(We refuse to believe anyone actually enjoys Border Collies.)"

Ha. This is my life right now.

"I'm thinking my next dog may be a border collie."

"Oh for agility?"

"Well I'd like to do agility with him but mostly I just like the breed."

*blank stare*

 

[FG167]

I think kelpie.

ACD's have a tendency to bully/SA/DA, but fit your harder requirement.

Aussies tend to be softer unless you go with a working line but then you have the same SA/DA to deal with in certain lines.

Koolies can't play AKC unless they are altered. They can do USDAA, NADAC, ASCA, CPE though. As long as you research your lines you should have a dog that has plenty of confidence and no tendency to DA/SA. I beat my dogs daily (during play) and they love it.

This is what I was wondering about with Aussies. Thank you.

Limit can't play AKC either, unless altered. I'm a TINY bit nervous about Kelpie again because of health and our current fear stage (fingers crossed its a stage). I don't recall Didgie or Zinga going through this as Robin and Limit??

 

[Beanie]

I do! I'm actually marker training Robin to growl when we tug and also to "enjoy" me thumping on him LOL

I also like a dog a little less thoughtful. I prefer more drive than smarts but a good off switch.

How about a Payton?
He is a bit of a thinker though. More drive than smarts when he's in working mode but he will over-think some other things. Like WHY DID YOU MOVE THE TABLE ON THE DECK. THIS SHOULD NOT BE HERE. IT SHOULD BE TWO INCHES TO THE LEFT. THIS IS WRONG. NO.


Seriously though, a nice drivey sheltie might work, but if you're not game for a BC, well... they have quirks like a BC, just different ones... also no guarantees they'll like water. Most don't. Payton is special because when he was a puppy I was like "IN THE POOL" and he was like "okay."

 

[Shai]

I think kelpie.

ACD's have a tendency to bully/SA/DA, but fit your harder requirement.

Aussies tend to be softer unless you go with a working line but then you have the same SA/DA to deal with in certain lines.

Koolies can't play AKC unless they are altered. They can do USDAA, NADAC, ASCA, CPE though. As long as you research your lines you should have a dog that has plenty of confidence and no tendency to DA/SA. I beat my dogs daily (during play) and they love it.

Kelpies can't play AKC unless they are altered either. There's one who runs here but she's listed as an All American.

 

[FG167]

Cardigans might be a good fit for you. I hesitate recommending them to people, but I think you're active enough.

Most fit well into a pack scenario, even the feisty girls, and they're really a blast to train and do performance.

I prefer Cardi females of the boys...it seems like after the boys hit maturity at three that they become real pills if they're not neutered. But, all the intact girls I've had have been very agreeable, even when in heat.

Bear in mind, I dog sit alot and my real pack only consists of two, although there could be up to four cardigans in my house at any given time.

My girl, Miz Naughty, is very very high drive for a cardigan and incredibly intelligent and very trainable.

Her daughter, Lil Sis, is only 9 weeks old but already shows biddability and promise, and I'm really excited to show her.

Both my girls are very intelligent and also very stable.

Cardigans are great off lead dogs when properly trained and it's fairly easy to get a Ch title as there's so much variation in the breed.

Just can't say enough about my girls and this breed in general. With the right owner, they're so fantastic.

OMG how did I not list this!?! Lol I'm an idiot. We have two girl Cardis now. Mine has agility titles among others and Jason's is in training for same. Lol although Eden does not enjoy swimming. I think I want a taller dog but the right girl Cardi is a def possibility!!

 

[Cardiparty]

Miz Naughty LOVES swimming, but she's also a total nut job. lol

Yeah, they're fantastic dogs, but typically do well with people who are used to herding dogs and their quirks.

Congrats on the titles!!!!!!!! Yay!!!!!!

Most people who have cardigans seem to do something with them. It's hard not to! They're just so much fun when it comes to training.

 

[Sekah]

I think kelpie.

ACD's have a tendency to bully/SA/DA, but fit your harder requirement.

Aussies tend to be softer unless you go with a working line but then you have the same SA/DA to deal with in certain lines.

Koolies can't play AKC unless they are altered. They can do USDAA, NADAC, ASCA, CPE though. As long as you research your lines you should have a dog that has plenty of confidence and no tendency to DA/SA. I beat my dogs daily (during play) and they love it.

I think this is pretty accurate.

I would probably recommend an ACD over an Aussie for you. (I think it's funny that ACD people are recommending Aussies and vice versa.) I don't know too many ACDs personally, but there's this one tiny sweet amazing little one that competes locally in agility, and I totally love to watch her work. From the right breeder, I could see an ACD being right up your alley.

Aussies are a real mixed bag these days. I would say that the vast majority are kind of ... boring dogs. I think you would have to pay close attention to the lines from which the dog comes to really find one that matches your desires. I don't think the average Aussie would suit you well -- you'd have to look for the exceptional. I would say that I dislike 90% of the Aussies I meet because they're too flat. Heck, even mine feels a bit too flat for me sometimes.

Some of the sports bred Aussies can be quite nice for performance, but they're mostly minis and most of them are either dangerously human aggressive or nervy and fearful. It sort of feels like you need to be Goldilocks, avoiding the ones who are too hot and too cold to find one that would fit your needs.

That said, I love my Aussie. She's both physically and mentally resilient, biddable, easily motivated and fast. Not BC fast, but fast enough. If I'd known more of what I was doing when I first got her I bet I could have built up that speed and drive more effectively. (She's my first dog...) She's adept at multiple sports and is a total Jack Of All Trades type of dog.

 

[AmberH]

I vote kelpie but that's just because I want one. Can you not show in UKC with them? Or is it hard to find a UKC breeder? I admit, I've done a little researched and not found any kelpie breeders who register UKC. Most working bred dogs.

 

[Laurelin]

I know some really nice Aussie but theyre all smaller working line dogs. Many are just as fast and flashy as BCs. But a lot of the show line Aussies are pretty flat for me too. There is one NICE show line boy at our club though. He is super awesome but a ton of dog. He can be a butt face with other dogs and also likes to be a jerk to his handler now and again. The other showline dogs are a lot softer and much less work ethic. I consider Aussies again and again but lines would play a big role.

You probably wouldn't like my breed preferences though. I love BCs and tervs lol. Tervs are incredible dogs. The ones I know are tons of drive and work ethic and a very up and happy working style.

I reall haven't been impressed with the ACDs as sports dogs. Seems like a lot have drive issues and most I've met are dog aggressive. Or maybe it's not drive issues but a lot seem ho hum about agility.

We have a lot of Cardis around here. A few are wicked awesome and fast but most aren't. I like them but the ones I like are lighter boned and leggier. There's a Merle cardi here that rocks.

 

[Linds]

Stupid AKC.

I actually really do think you could find a Kelpie that fits what you're looking for. But, I do think it would take some real digging, immersing yourself in the world and finding the right people to talk to because I do get the feeling that a ton goes on behind the scenes and isn't spoken about.

Kelpies have that edge I think you want without the overall softness. That being said I also think there is a really wide variety of temperaments in them so sorting through will be a challenge.

I really actually do think you sound like a good fit for a Koolie, but I don't know if it's worth all the hassle of finding one if a Kelpie (or even another breed) fits just as well.

I wouldn't call Koolies serious or edgy really but not soft. They just take great joy in all things. Neither Traveler nor Didgie went through any distinct fear period that I can remember. That could be me failing to notice it though.

But, they aren't prone to any DA or HA so that's nice! And most have a built in hardwired off switch (Needs to be encouraged and so on but it's a good base to work with)

That all being said you would have to research lines and breeders and all that jazz because there are lines that are softer and less drivey.

I have a write up that I made up about them that's part ramble for someone recently, I could message that to you if you would like?

ETA: What about a sport mix of some kind? I know that still kicks you out of AKC but still an idea?

 

[stardogs]

I think with either Aussie or ACD it'll depend HEAVILY on the lines. Cattle bred dogs of both breeds tend to be physically better designed for sports, but have that edge that can create issues with DA/SSA. Show line dogs are less likely to have the DA/SSA issues, but also tend to be softer toward their handlers and heavier in build.

There's a cattle bred ACD boy that just started at our IPO club, but his confo bred ACD housemate has no interest whatsoever. They are like night and day.

ACDs tend to be more neutral to aloof with strangers than Aussies ime.

And then you'll meet Kes, who is PAL'd as an ACD, but is pretty much the opposite of an ACD in his attitudes toward dogs and people. LOL Snipe is also ACD mixed and she can be uber social or totally business-like.

 

[DJEtzel]

When you say show, are you talking about conformation? I can only imagine since you're speaking about registration for AKC...

Keep in mind, at least around here, a lot of show bred Aussies don't have the drive for sports. There are a few show aussies at our dog park and in my agility classes and OMG I can't get them to move! And a lot of working line breeders don't let/want you to show them. Something to consider? That could all vary by breeder, too! But you may then run into a working line not finishing/doing well in confo because it's a different style and a show line not having the drive. If you weren't worried about shipping I'm sure you could find a show breeder with some drive too, I would just worry about one or the other being easier to find and not a mix? Just some rambling!

 

[Laurelin]

I should add the people that have he awesome Aussie also have a second (I think littermates? Same age). The second is super soft and sensitive and a worrier. He is not very fast in agility either. I love him though. He is so so sweet and totally not a butt like his brother is. The little working line girl though is incredible. If she had a tail you would be unable to differentiate her from a border collie.

 

[SaraB]

This is what I was wondering about with Aussies. Thank you.

Limit can't play AKC either, unless altered. I'm a TINY bit nervous about Kelpie again because of health and our current fear stage (fingers crossed its a stage). I don't recall Didgie or Zinga going through this as Robin and Limit??

Heck no, Zinga has never met a stranger, whether that was person, dog, loud banging noise, umbrella, giant odd looking rock... etc.

I agree with Linds. WHATEVER breed you go with, you absolutely have to immerse yourself into the breed community. That is the only way you learn about lines and the temperaments that follow. Find people with the dogs from those lines and talk to them. Talk to breeders. Talk to everyone that has ever been involved with the breed. Soak up all of the information you can before jumping into another breed.

 

[Julee]

My vote goes to a Koolie, because Koolies. Or a Kelpie.

 

[FG167]

A Traveler clone would probably fit your list but if there is a Traveler clone he is MINE

Ooooo if I went Koolie, I could get a boy??

Can you not show in UKC with them? Or is it hard to find a UKC breeder?

You can and it's not necessary. If they're registered with the Kelpie registry, UKC will recognize and register under that pedigree. Unfortunately, now that I live in TN, hardly any UKC going on.

I actually really do think you could find a Kelpie that fits what you're looking for. But, I do think it would take some real digging, immersing yourself in the world and finding the right people to talk to because I do get the feeling that a ton goes on behind the scenes and isn't spoken about.

Kelpies have that edge I think you want without the overall softness. That being said I also think there is a really wide variety of temperaments in them so sorting through will be a challenge.

I really actually do think you sound like a good fit for a Koolie, but I don't know if it's worth all the hassle of finding one if a Kelpie (or even another breed) fits just as well.

I wouldn't call Koolies serious or edgy really but not soft. They just take great joy in all things. Neither Traveler nor Didgie went through any distinct fear period that I can remember. That could be me failing to notice it though.

But, they aren't prone to any DA or HA so that's nice! And most have a built in hardwired off switch (Needs to be encouraged and so on but it's a good base to work with)

That all being said you would have to research lines and breeders and all that jazz because there are lines that are softer and less

I don't even know how to start. The "sport" Kelpies I've met were way softer than Limit, but with him coming from straight cattle driving lines, I cannot add another like him. He's (right now, will see if he grows out of this but I am beginning to doubt it) sharp, edgy, and has the potential to be dog aggressive and a biter. As a 1 year old, he's very uncomfortable enclosed with others (like small classes), being touched or handled (he was SUPER social as a puppy) by strangers, and totally unforgiving to strange rude dogs that approach - he will bite then in the face. I've worked really hard with him and most of this is almost invisible to outsiders. However, even if his knees come out good, I don't know if we'll be able to trial or if he would enjoy it (due to the atmosphere). That's all up in the air and will see once he's a bit older (and neutered). On the other hand, his food and toy drive is fantastic, he's very sweet and biddable etc.

One of the biggest hang ups for me is when I say I want a drivey dog, trusting that the person knows what I mean. Before I got Limit, I was on a list for an ACD litter. The breeder said performance prospects and drive etc. I had a good friend check them out, he told me no way, very little drive. Of all the breeds listed, the only dog of those breeds I've seen where the temperament AND drive (and size) were what I wanted was Zinga. However, I don't know if that's normal for all those breeds or not. Something that definitely concerns me. I was originally considering Koolie vs Kelpie but wasn't sure about importing an unknown breed. Before.

 

[Keechak]

An Aussie could fit you but as others have said you're going to have to be picky with lines. There are lots of versatility kennels out there to choose from, there are a few breeders I could recommend to you but non in your state.

 

[Laurelin]

I think really digging deep is a good suggestion. I'm looking at pyrsheps and have talked to so so many breeders and owners. Both good and bad things. They vary a lot in drive too. I think most breeds do to some extent. The only koolie I've seen in real life was not very drivey for example. I've met border collies that rent drivey either. And Aussies and ACDs and Shelties and... You get the picture.

For me I want to see what the breeder considers drivey and a performance dog. I also want a breeder that will really listen and get what I am looking for out of this dog. Someone that will talk to me in depth. I'm really lucky to have people in both breeds I am really considering that will do that. I also am able to talk to performance people with dogs from there that will tell me good bad and ugly. What worked and what didn't. Etc.

I do think drive is often just as much due to handling and drive building. But you definitely want a breeder that is somewhat on the same page though. Drive means different things to people involved in different sports.

This is a new experience for me. I've always stuck to the familiar (Shelties and paps). Choosing a new breed to try is rough. I don't think you really know for sure till you jump. Do what you can then pray for he beat and develop the dog you get.

I also want health testing and a good guarantee. That is a Big Deal after Mia's knee problems.

 

[Equinox]

I vote for Kelpies if you can find the right breeder/litter/lines, or Koolies if you can deal with the noise They look like so much fun (but only because I can't hear the barking through photos).

I do think you can find a good Aussie if you look hard - Keechak would be a good person to talk to about the breed - but overall they probably don't match up to your expectations in a sport dog. I know you made a thread a year or two back to ask about different breeds before ultimately deciding that English Shepherds weren't a good fit. I think there are a lot of similarities between ES's and Aussies, and Sekah's description of Cohen reminds me of what I hear about English Shepherds (resilient, jack of all trades dog). Of course then there are the sport bred dogs to consider, but Sekah and other members have already commented on that possibility.

I do! I'm actually marker training Robin to growl when we tug and also to "enjoy" me thumping on him LOL

I also like a dog a little less thoughtful. I prefer more drive than smarts but a good off switch.

oh my god just take Trent now. He has both but somehow they have trouble coexisting, at least when it comes to games/sports/prey.

 

[FG167]

I vote for Kelpies if you can find the right breeder/litter/lines, or Koolies if you can deal with the noise They look like so much fun (but only because I can't hear the barking through photos).

oh my god just take Trent now. He has both but somehow they have trouble coexisting, at least when it comes to games/sports/prey.

The noise haha NOTHING can top the terrible, ear shattering, non-stop shrieking that Eden produces when she's in drive. Nothing. LOL It is the most irritating sound EVER. Followed closely by Robin's airless scream. *sigh* herders.

Um, lol, I don't think Trent fits the "small" or the "female" stipulations very well hahahahahaha Trent's presence would hurt Kastle's masculine self esteem (due to being 65 lbs and a long coat that is frequently called a "pretty girl").