New docking laws

[joce]

I consider all my dogs working dogs. I wouldn't ahve them if they didn't fill some role and they are sure not pampered and carried around in purses so I want to know how anyone is going to tell me my dog should have a tail amputated at a late age because some idiot who knows nothing about docking decided it hurts a pup at three days old So an amputation is better than a couple minutes of squirming around?!

A breeder will not know at three days what dog will or will not be a working dog so how are they supposed to decide who gets docked. How stupid.

 

[JennSLK]

A breeder will not know at three days what dog will or will not be a working dog so how are they supposed to decide who gets docked. How stupid

Yup. Not to mention what about dual dogs? Jazz is going to be a show dog, but I want to train her in Sutzhund, posibly.

What about those Aussies (they are born with tails I think) who are sow dogs, but also are doing working titles?

what about that? So some law is going to take away my personal choice to have both a working and show dog?

 

[Gallien Jacks]

What i meant about the showing is at the moment a docked dog will be picked over a undocked dog, obviously judges will have to re think when the ban commences, but there will be the pups with tails and the older docked dogs, so for some time there will still be a mixture in the ring, which isn't fair for new comers with a pup that would be frowned upon my a old fashioned judge. And in the shows where countries are mixed so will docked and un docked be mixed which means their will be prejudice

 

[Dizzy]

because some idiot who knows nothing about docking decided it hurts a pup at three days old

Tehy haven't just pulled some "idiot" in off the street. It's pretty naive to think they are considering banning it just off the say so of one "idiot".

 

[joce]

The bans always come up ehre because some (and I will call them idiot) perosn hears a story about scissors or something and then this all gets something started up. So yes,it is due to some idiots.

 

[JennSLK]

I just want to know what they are plannin on doing if the dog is a show AND a working dog.

Every dog looks like a little rat at 5 days old. how can they say who is show or working quality. Its hard enough to tell at 8 weeks.

 

[Boxerowner]

Once it is banned, give it a couple of years and you won't even remember how they used to look.

Do you really want to forget what they once were/looked like sorry but that is just a silly statement I will never forget what the breed I love ever looked like without a tail or any other part of its body.

Sorry but I have both undocked and docked breeds and I really think it is stupid to banned docking its a personal preference if you dont want to dock then dont but dont take it away from people that happen to work and show or just want a pet with a docked tail.

 

[Dizzy]

I am not the one banning it. I am the one who will not be opposing it.

Do you really want to forget what they once were/looked like sorry but that is just a silly statement I will never forget what the breed I love ever looked like without a tail or any other part of its body.

That is not a silly statement. Like I have said once before, cropping has been banned here, and to see a dog with cropped ears looks very unusual. People are now accustomed to seeing natural ears and on the whole PREFER the look, and usually are horrified with how cropped ears are produced (I remember discovering as a child and thought it was awful!). Bear in mind, there will have been the same feeling amongst people who owned cropped breeds when that ban came in too. In time, it will be the same for tails. As it is in other european countries.

I am not telling YOU what to do. I am telling you what I prefer.

 

[Selkhet]

I own a docked breed, and even though I decided not to crop his ears, I still would have docked the tail. I don't approve of the cropping process (IMO), but have to agree that the end result looks nice.

I worked for a vet and saw firsthand the effects of docking and cropping. The place I worked for used a special tool kinda like a cigar cutter to dock tails. The pups may have let out a little squeal, but nothing more than if they are given a shot. It only takes 1 or 2 stitches to close the wound, and it's healed in a couple of days.

The cropping process is much more invasive. It brought tears to my eyes to see the pups when they woke up from surgery. They didn't know what happened or where they were, they just knew their mommy was gone and their ears hurt. All they did was cry and cry.

Most of them hurt so much (even on pain meds) that they would just lay there and look at you with those eyes. After the first day they were better, but they still needed pain medication. And there is also a long process of taping and retaping the sore ears because they don't usually stay up when the pup scratches and shakes his head.

It was my personal experience that led me to the decision not to crop, but I don't look down upon anyone who does it. The dogs do get over it, just like women forget the pain of labor. What I don't agree with is people docking and cropping for senseless reasons. (breed standard is the only acception IMO) I've seen mutts - usually rott or pitt or dobe mixes - with docked tails and cropped ears just because they have that breed in their blood. I think that's wrong, and no selfrespecting vet would condone that.

EDIT: If a tail is being damaged or causing pain, that's another reason I agree with docking, though at that point it would be an amputation.

 

[Gallien Jacks]

I just want to know what they are plannin on doing if the dog is a show AND a working dog.

Every dog looks like a little rat at 5 days old. how can they say who is show or working quality. Its hard enough to tell at 8 weeks.

They cant do both, a show dog is usually different to a working dog looks wise, and thats where i feel the laws will be causing troubble, as most working boxer breeders dont health test or follow the standered, so if docked boxers are more popular then the working breeders will be producing more of them even if its just for pets and the boxer we know and love will change over time

 

[Gallien Jacks]

Animal Welfare Bill, As Amended
New Clauses

Docking of dogs’ tails

(1) A person commits an offence if —

(a) he removes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment;

(b) he causes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail to be removed by another person, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment.

(2) A person commits an offence if —

(a) he is responsible for a dog,

(b) another person removes the whole or any part of the dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment, and he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the dog is a certified working dog that is not more than 5 days old.

(4) For the purposes of subsection (3), a dog is a certified working dog if a veterinary surgeon has certified that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with-

(a) law enforcement,

(b) activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces,

(c) emergency rescue,

(d) lawful pest control, or

(e) the lawful shooting of animals.

(5) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (1) or (2) to show that he reasonably believed that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (3) applies.

(6) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he owns a subsection (3) dog, and

(b) fails to take reasonable steps to secure that, before the dog is 3 months old, it is identified as a subsection (3) dog in accordance with regulations made under this section.

(7) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee,

(b) the dog’s tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and

(c) removal took place on or after the commencement day.

(8) Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (7) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog.

(9) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (7) to show that he reasonably believed—

(a) that the event was not one to which members of the public were admitted on payment of an entrance fee,

(b) that the removal took place before the commencement day, or

(c) that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (8) applies.


(10) A person commits an offence if he knowingly gives false information to a veterinary surgeon in connection with the giving of a certificate for the purposes of this section.

(11) The appropriate authority may by regulations—

(a) make provision about the giving by veterinary surgeons of certificates for the purposes of this section;

(b) make provision about the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs;

(c) make provision about the functions of inspectors in relation to certificates for the purposes of this section and the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs.

(12) Power to make regulations under subsection (11) includes power to make incidental, supplementary, consequential provision or transitional provision or savings.

(13) Before making regulations under subsection (11), the appropriate national authority shall consult such persons appearing to the authority to represent any interests concerned as the authority considers appropriate.

(14) In this section— “commencement day” means the day on which this section comes into force; “subsection (3) dog” means a dog whose tail has, on or after the commencement day, been wholly or partly removed without contravening subsection (1), because of the application of subsection (3).’.

 

[JennSLK]

Bull S**T

 

[Gallien Jacks]

Yep I had to read and re-read some it seems they are designed to confuse

 

[Selkhet]

Bull S**T

lol, well said.

 

[joce]

So can you jsut say you hunt and get the dogs docked? Or do you have to rbing in a dead deer with you or something

 

[Gallien Jacks]

I really hope we can sort this, its turning the thought of showing not as enjoyable as i hoped, I will be getting my girl in a year or two, but the taught that she will not do well because she will have a tail is making me think twice

 

[amymarley]

I don't give a cr*p about showing... that is for people, not animals....

As for the dobie person above, yes, you can do what you want.... thank goodness you live in a country as great as ours, too bad the laws were not more strict.

You (dobie) did not put one reference concerning your dogs well-being or choice, just yours as cosmetic reasons, to make you feel better about you and your dog.

I don't expect to get a good response from you, since you alaready stated that you are going to mutilate your dog for your own personal enjoyment... and I am not going to go back and fourth with you on it either.

You stated a stupid fact..."I want dobies to look like dobies.." well, then take them as they are born, not manufactured by people to make money or show quallity. That is just stupid talk.

K, I am all for all HUMAN babies to turn out to look like Michael Jackson..... why not? He is a legend in his own time, makes millions, lets change all of our children to look like him! Then parade him/her around a ring for people to judge....Why not? Lets cut and probe and make them an "image" of our own....(Pleeeeze)

I do have a question for more INFORMED people out there, esp. boxer people... there has been so much debate on boxers tails, that I would love to hear more about (regarding being a medical ness., not a cosmetic, selfish thing).

Bottom line, if anyone could have a one on one talk with their dog, and spoke truly to each other, do you really think your dog is going to say, YEA, deform me, cut me open and have pain for no other reason to make YOU happy. Sadley, most dogs would say yes, only to make their MASTERS happy, because unlike most humans, your dog is all he/she has, and of course going to do anything to make you happy.

 

[brock23]

Speaking only as a GSP owner, all I can say is that for this breed it really is for medical purposes since most GSP's are hunters. My particular dog does not, but there is no way to know I wouldn't hunt him at 3 days old. So for this breed has a whole I believe it to be in their best interest to protect the dog.

 

[amymarley]

brock, I don't know about other breeds.... that may be well and true. I simply don't know....(so, no I am not bashing you).

My question was about boxers, and I know we have several "experts" on boxers here....

As for the post I posted above, that was telling someone that he/she is selfish for just doing "cosmetic" things on her dog. That is bad...in my opinion... she was defensive before anyone even "attacked" her, therefore, my thought, she knows in her heart that she is being selfish and unwilling to spare pain for her dogs..... It makes me sad.

 

[Dobiegurl]

I don't give a cr*p about showing... that is for people, not animals....

As for the dobie person above, yes, you can do what you want.... thank goodness you live in a country as great as ours, too bad the laws were not more strict.

You (dobie) did not put one reference concerning your dogs well-being or choice, just yours as cosmetic reasons, to make you feel better about you and your dog.

I don't expect to get a good response from you, since you alaready stated that you are going to mutilate your dog for your own personal enjoyment... and I am not going to go back and fourth with you on it either.

You stated a stupid fact..."I want dobies to look like dobies.." well, then take them as they are born, not manufactured by people to make money or show quallity. That is just stupid talk.

K, I am all for all HUMAN babies to turn out to look like Michael Jackson..... why not? He is a legend in his own time, makes millions, lets change all of our children to look like him! Then parade him/her around a ring for people to judge....Why not? Lets cut and probe and make them an "image" of our own....(Pleeeeze)

I do have a question for more INFORMED people out there, esp. boxer people... there has been so much debate on boxers tails, that I would love to hear more about (regarding being a medical ness., not a cosmetic, selfish thing).

Bottom line, if anyone could have a one on one talk with their dog, and spoke truly to each other, do you really think your dog is going to say, YEA, deform me, cut me open and have pain for no other reason to make YOU happy. Sadley, most dogs would say yes, only to make their MASTERS happy, because unlike most humans, your dog is all he/she has, and of course going to do anything to make you happy.

Do all your Boxers or whatever dogs you own have their tail? Mind you, I am not asking if they are working dogs or not because docking is docking whichever way you want to put it. And I did crop and dock my dog for cosmetic reasons but from being so "selfish" I rescued him from being killed or better yet I think he was getting ready to go to a lab because the lady (known for doing evil cruel things to dogs) was offered $100 from these "evil" people. Unfortunately since I am so selfish my dog is with me in a loving home instead of being wired up like a freaking christmas tree. You can judge me all you want, I could care less. But before you judge someone you should know the person and the facts. But in life theres only one judge, the rest are haters.