"In God We Trust"
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I found this "letter to the editor" in the Sunday November 13 edition of Stars and Stripes to be very interesting. I personally think that "one nation under God" is great and should remain in the pledge. But here is what Belinda Mays of Katterbach Germany wrote. (mind you, she's not German but is in some way affliated with the US military and is stationed there)
Evolution of the Pledge
The Rev. Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in August 1892 as follows: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." In October 1892, the word "to" was added in "and to the Republic."
In the 1920's, the pledge's words were changed from "my Flag" to "The Flag of the United States of America." Then, in the McCarthy era atmosphere of fear and repression of 1954, "under God" was added to the pledge to differentiate the United States, a "God-fearing country" from communist Russia, where religion was banned. Those who opposed this change or voiced opinions or views outside the mainstream or contrary to national policiy were labeled communist. The pledge essentially became a forced public prayer and a patriotic oath.
Descendants of Bellamy would argue that Bellamy would have certainly have resented this change. Because of his socialist sermons, he was pressured to leave his Baptist church in 1891. Further, he later stopped attending church altogether due to the racial bigotry often found there.
... She goes on to propose we simply return to the way the pledge was originally written
I plan to do a little research and see if this is truly the evolution of our pledge... If anyone knows for sure, save me some time and let me know
Evolution of the Pledge
The Rev. Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in August 1892 as follows: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." In October 1892, the word "to" was added in "and to the Republic."
In the 1920's, the pledge's words were changed from "my Flag" to "The Flag of the United States of America." Then, in the McCarthy era atmosphere of fear and repression of 1954, "under God" was added to the pledge to differentiate the United States, a "God-fearing country" from communist Russia, where religion was banned. Those who opposed this change or voiced opinions or views outside the mainstream or contrary to national policiy were labeled communist. The pledge essentially became a forced public prayer and a patriotic oath.
Descendants of Bellamy would argue that Bellamy would have certainly have resented this change. Because of his socialist sermons, he was pressured to leave his Baptist church in 1891. Further, he later stopped attending church altogether due to the racial bigotry often found there.
... She goes on to propose we simply return to the way the pledge was originally written
I plan to do a little research and see if this is truly the evolution of our pledge... If anyone knows for sure, save me some time and let me know
ugh, i cant decide if i believe in god, i go through phases, lol...regardless...i do not think 'in god we trust' should be removed!! that is rediculous...its a phrase, like the article said, its not even really associated with religion to many people, myself included. I definately dont think kids should be forced to say it the pledge...they should have to stand up with everyone else, but hey, if they dont feel like saying it, it should be ok if they politely stand there, and respect the flag...there is no sense in making a fuss...it is waaay more about your country than religion!
kinda like when people get all mad when someone wishes them a 'merry christmas' and they are jewish! i never knew people got mad at that, until a boss of mine sent me an x-mas card, and later was apologizing like crazy cause she found out i was jewish...i was like NOOOO! dont apologize, i didnt even think about that! i thought it was incredibly kind of you to think of me!!
i mean c'mon people!! no need to get all huffy over something like that...
now when things like banning birth control, abortion, etc are pushed on people...that is a WHOLE different matter....
kinda like when people get all mad when someone wishes them a 'merry christmas' and they are jewish! i never knew people got mad at that, until a boss of mine sent me an x-mas card, and later was apologizing like crazy cause she found out i was jewish...i was like NOOOO! dont apologize, i didnt even think about that! i thought it was incredibly kind of you to think of me!!
i mean c'mon people!! no need to get all huffy over something like that...
now when things like banning birth control, abortion, etc are pushed on people...that is a WHOLE different matter....
It's not offensive to them. They're just whining to get noticed/get money.
And I'm not saying religion is wrong, but read Plato's 'The Republic'. The short story called 'The Cave' is discussed in there but more importantly, after that, it discusses 'The Noble Lie'.
Now, once you read that and consider when Plato was around (347 years BEFORE Christ) then you'll understand why I have such a hard reason believing in God.
If you want me to go further in a PM, or this thread even, I will but until asked I won't. A lot of people find this discussion offensive whenever I present the former logic to them.
Edit: Which, now that I think of it, coincides with 'The Cave' a great deal. How ironic.
And I'm not saying religion is wrong, but read Plato's 'The Republic'. The short story called 'The Cave' is discussed in there but more importantly, after that, it discusses 'The Noble Lie'.
Now, once you read that and consider when Plato was around (347 years BEFORE Christ) then you'll understand why I have such a hard reason believing in God.
If you want me to go further in a PM, or this thread even, I will but until asked I won't. A lot of people find this discussion offensive whenever I present the former logic to them.
Edit: Which, now that I think of it, coincides with 'The Cave' a great deal. How ironic.
Ahhh, "The Cave". Had to dissect that piece in both my philosophy class and my rhetoric class.
A sign I saw in Ed Debevics "In God We Trust. All others pay cash."
Chi already posted everything else I was going to. And to be honest, I don't have enough money these days to worry about what is or is not written on it.
A sign I saw in Ed Debevics "In God We Trust. All others pay cash."
Chi already posted everything else I was going to. And to be honest, I don't have enough money these days to worry about what is or is not written on it.
I'd love to discuss it with ya. Just remember that God is not really "logical" and that the physical and metaphysical, CANNOT ever truely mix. It is like oil and water. So, if you seek "logical" proof of a higher power, quit searching now, you will never find Him that way.
FYI, I PROMISE to be civil here. I always love having this dicussion. Especially when people try to use logic to define God.
FYI, I PROMISE to be civil here.
I always love having this dicussion. Especially when people try to use logic to define God.
Blanket statement to all who feel that it SHOULD be removed....
1.) I honestly want to know how you think the words "In God We Trust" is in violation of THIS...
1st Amendment of the COnstitution of the United States.
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Are those words the government establishing a religion? I think not. It is perhaps our government acknowledging a higher power, but NOT establishing a national religion OR oppressing your right to NOT believe in God.
Re-read the 1st Amendment. No where does it say you have a right to "not be offended" or to be"comfortable at all times". It gives you freedom to SPEAK, not be heard or agreed with.
2.) Know that the words "seperation of church and state" are NOT in the Constitution OR Bill of Rights. Those words came from a PERSONAL letter penned by Thomas Jefferson to a Amish Bishop sometime in the late 1790's. The Amish Bishop was concerned that the new country would oppress the Amish, the same way they were oppressed in Switzerland. Mr. Jefferson wrote a PERSONAL letter to him to quell his fears. The context of the letter was meant to show that the government would not endorse a particular faith or anything of that nature. NOWHERE does he or anyone say that the government cannot PRACTICE a faith. It simply says the government shall not establish a national faith. PERIOD.
Of course, the main stream press would never show this. Cannot let the facts get in the way of a good story.
So, again I have to ask... Why is it the words "In God We Trust" so offensive to people? If you really don't believe, why does it bother you?
I would LOVE to chat with Micheal Newdow for about 10 minutes. The guy is a fool and a crybaby, plain and simple. His arguement is CRAP and any constructionist judge would throw it out in a heart beat. Too bad there are not many constructionists left... They ALL have a agenda now.
1.) I honestly want to know how you think the words "In God We Trust" is in violation of THIS...
1st Amendment of the COnstitution of the United States.
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Are those words the government establishing a religion? I think not. It is perhaps our government acknowledging a higher power, but NOT establishing a national religion OR oppressing your right to NOT believe in God.
Re-read the 1st Amendment. No where does it say you have a right to "not be offended" or to be"comfortable at all times". It gives you freedom to SPEAK, not be heard or agreed with.
2.) Know that the words "seperation of church and state" are NOT in the Constitution OR Bill of Rights. Those words came from a PERSONAL letter penned by Thomas Jefferson to a Amish Bishop sometime in the late 1790's. The Amish Bishop was concerned that the new country would oppress the Amish, the same way they were oppressed in Switzerland. Mr. Jefferson wrote a PERSONAL letter to him to quell his fears. The context of the letter was meant to show that the government would not endorse a particular faith or anything of that nature. NOWHERE does he or anyone say that the government cannot PRACTICE a faith. It simply says the government shall not establish a national faith. PERIOD.
Of course, the main stream press would never show this. Cannot let the facts get in the way of a good story.
So, again I have to ask... Why is it the words "In God We Trust" so offensive to people? If you really don't believe, why does it bother you?
I would LOVE to chat with Micheal Newdow for about 10 minutes. The guy is a fool and a crybaby, plain and simple. His arguement is CRAP and any constructionist judge would throw it out in a heart beat. Too bad there are not many constructionists left... They ALL have a agenda now.
honestly if you are that disturbed about 4 word sentence written on bill, you need more things to fill out your day.
I realize religions vary, but if you are that offended by something as small as something like that written on a 20 dollar bill you have too much time on your hands.
Even though I may not be part of someones particular religion, I still respect it. I think people are just getting too sensative in our day and age. Loosen up a little, it makes life more enjoyable. Besides, its the most common religion in the u.s but you cant make everyone happy.
I realize religions vary, but if you are that offended by something as small as something like that written on a 20 dollar bill you have too much time on your hands.
Even though I may not be part of someones particular religion, I still respect it. I think people are just getting too sensative in our day and age. Loosen up a little, it makes life more enjoyable. Besides, its the most common religion in the u.s but you cant make everyone happy.
OK this thread is quite intersting and I have formed an opinion (OMG I actually have one?!)
OK, first let me put on my fire proof suit then let me get started, then you guys start throwing flameballs - remember safety first!
1.) If there was so much stinkin' hooba hoo over the religious reference in the pledge then lets just go back to the original version, after reading the original, I think I like it better, even if its by a Baptist minister that is now long deceased and well in the ground.
2.) Do I believe in God, no, do I believe in A god, yes. Theres got to be something out there, aliens, higher power, all-being, SOMETHING is out there, I just dont know what it is. I used to be a Bible-thumping Southern Baptist, but after a bad experience with the church, I find myself skeptical of religion these days. I dont hate it, but I dont embrace it either. Through this stance I have met some great Christians and non-Christians, no one person is better than the other, they just have differences on religion.
3.) Do I believe in the Bible, yes, as some of it actually has factual historical basis, this is the OLDEST known text to man, historians, and scientists have often referred back to the Bible to learn about early man, and early civilizations. I find certain portions of the Bible good reading such as the Exodus into Babylon. And many of the greatests scientists that have made great breakthroughs in DNA research and evolution of man, are also strong Christians.
4.) Is there a possibility of a Heaven and a Hell, Im sure there is, but we dont know whos right until they put us in the casket and close it, doesnt matter what religion/ faith you believe in. We just have to live life as best we can because in the end no one gets out alive and no need to worry over death so much.
4.) I remember up until about 1993 all of my teachers had a bible on their desks, they never read it to us, never forced us to read it, but something about that Bible made us behave just a little bit better. The next time I saw a Bible on a teachers desk was when I was 9th grade, every morning I would walk past her classroom and Id see her in there reading that Bible, and what shocked me was the day after I blurted out goddammit in class she was praying for me (she was a loud prayer). I was stunned, and after that I made it a point to be a little more respectful towards her. Not long after that I started going to church, but thats for another thread.
And theres the flipside. I watched WifeSwap last week on Fox. A Christian woman swapped places with an astrologist woman. While the Christian lady was busy shoving Jesus down her hosts throats (even trying to talk the kids into going to church), they were not allowed to discuss astrology with her because it "bothered" her. She was even a guest on this guys astrology radio talk show and they wanted to discuss astrology with Christianity, and she got mad and walked off on-air.
Now the Astrologist woman who went to live with the Christian family was extremely nice, she never once brought up Astrology unless one of the host family members asked. She watched her boundaries carefully. She even took the daughters out shopping and went with them to dance lessons. When they blessed their meals she willingly joined in out of respect.
At the end of the show each wife was supposed to write how their host families were to spend 50,000 dollars. The Astrologist gave them a new Washer&Dryer, a new truck for one of the kids, and the two oldest kids got college money and the Christian lady (who was 500lbs overweight) got money for a gastric bypass that shed wanted.
At first the Christian lady refused to even look at the list, ripped it up and threw it outside without even looking at it. And said that she would not allow any non-Christian into her household, yelled at the camera men that if they did not believe in Jesus they had to leave. And her family was scared, the littlest daughter was crying so badly because her "Christian" mom was so upset, saying that anything the Astrologist woman bought them would be destroyed, and went on and on and on about how "dark sided" things were in that house.
Do you see my point (although lengthy?). I think the Christian woman scared me more than the Astrologist, and I lean more towards Christianity than astrology.
I find that its best to leave controversial subjects alone unless youre willing to help stir the pot.
Again this is a good discussion, its good see everyones view, so please, lets not let this thread go to trash.
-Dixie
OK, first let me put on my fire proof suit then let me get started, then you guys start throwing flameballs - remember safety first!
1.) If there was so much stinkin' hooba hoo over the religious reference in the pledge then lets just go back to the original version, after reading the original, I think I like it better, even if its by a Baptist minister that is now long deceased and well in the ground.
2.) Do I believe in God, no, do I believe in A god, yes. Theres got to be something out there, aliens, higher power, all-being, SOMETHING is out there, I just dont know what it is. I used to be a Bible-thumping Southern Baptist, but after a bad experience with the church, I find myself skeptical of religion these days. I dont hate it, but I dont embrace it either. Through this stance I have met some great Christians and non-Christians, no one person is better than the other, they just have differences on religion.
3.) Do I believe in the Bible, yes, as some of it actually has factual historical basis, this is the OLDEST known text to man, historians, and scientists have often referred back to the Bible to learn about early man, and early civilizations. I find certain portions of the Bible good reading such as the Exodus into Babylon. And many of the greatests scientists that have made great breakthroughs in DNA research and evolution of man, are also strong Christians.
4.) Is there a possibility of a Heaven and a Hell, Im sure there is, but we dont know whos right until they put us in the casket and close it, doesnt matter what religion/ faith you believe in. We just have to live life as best we can because in the end no one gets out alive and no need to worry over death so much.
4.) I remember up until about 1993 all of my teachers had a bible on their desks, they never read it to us, never forced us to read it, but something about that Bible made us behave just a little bit better. The next time I saw a Bible on a teachers desk was when I was 9th grade, every morning I would walk past her classroom and Id see her in there reading that Bible, and what shocked me was the day after I blurted out goddammit in class she was praying for me (she was a loud prayer). I was stunned, and after that I made it a point to be a little more respectful towards her. Not long after that I started going to church, but thats for another thread.
And theres the flipside. I watched WifeSwap last week on Fox. A Christian woman swapped places with an astrologist woman. While the Christian lady was busy shoving Jesus down her hosts throats (even trying to talk the kids into going to church), they were not allowed to discuss astrology with her because it "bothered" her. She was even a guest on this guys astrology radio talk show and they wanted to discuss astrology with Christianity, and she got mad and walked off on-air.
Now the Astrologist woman who went to live with the Christian family was extremely nice, she never once brought up Astrology unless one of the host family members asked. She watched her boundaries carefully. She even took the daughters out shopping and went with them to dance lessons. When they blessed their meals she willingly joined in out of respect.
At the end of the show each wife was supposed to write how their host families were to spend 50,000 dollars. The Astrologist gave them a new Washer&Dryer, a new truck for one of the kids, and the two oldest kids got college money and the Christian lady (who was 500lbs overweight) got money for a gastric bypass that shed wanted.
At first the Christian lady refused to even look at the list, ripped it up and threw it outside without even looking at it. And said that she would not allow any non-Christian into her household, yelled at the camera men that if they did not believe in Jesus they had to leave. And her family was scared, the littlest daughter was crying so badly because her "Christian" mom was so upset, saying that anything the Astrologist woman bought them would be destroyed, and went on and on and on about how "dark sided" things were in that house.
Do you see my point (although lengthy?). I think the Christian woman scared me more than the Astrologist, and I lean more towards Christianity than astrology.
I find that its best to leave controversial subjects alone unless youre willing to help stir the pot.
Again this is a good discussion, its good see everyones view, so please, lets not let this thread go to trash.
-Dixie
Dixie said:
OK this thread is quite intersting and I have formed an opinion (OMG I actually have one?!)
OK, first let me put on my fire proof suit then let me get started, then you guys start throwing flameballs - remember safety first!
OK, first let me put on my fire proof suit then let me get started, then you guys start throwing flameballs - remember safety first!
2.) Don't let something a PERSON did, change how you view God. People are imperfect, but that does not change the truth.
Agreed.... Also, if evolution is ever proven true, it would NOT deny the existance of God. God created man in his image, it does not mean we have not changed since then.
BUT, FWIW, I believe in adaptation/evolution from the original creation. But NOT the idea that LIFE just happened. Life is a miracle, not chemisty.
Indeed, but after your physical death, it is too late to change your mind.
I agree... It is what happens AFTER death that needs attention.
I would be skeptical of the ture motives of any proclaimed Christian who...
a.) Would subject themselves to such an obvious set up...
b.) Get angry and walk off set when confronted about thier faith.
An obvious attempt by the show to show Christians as "evil" and "mean". Jesus gave us a commission to share the good news. So we do. Some people see that as us trying "to shove it down thier throat". To that, I can only say... "feeling guilty"?
Is TV that influential in your life? Do you REALLY take the "results" of a "reality show" that seriously?
Being PC is for wussies.
I am a free man with a brain. You better believe I am going to practice my free speech. If nothing else, I do so out of respect and honour for the men and women who died to give it to me.
Again this is a good discussion, its good see everyones view, so please, lets not let this thread go to trash.
The first question I have to ask is have you watched the show? If so, you must know that they tend to work with families who are opposite each other.
Having seen the show (not this episode but a couple of other episodes), I would say it's not the show that portrays Christians as being evil and mean.....it portrays a person being rabid and close-minded while they're being rabid and close-minded - traits that are unflattering, no matter why (whether it be religion or economic class or any other excuse).
Share your good news....I have no problem with that. Just don't complain if people don't want to share AND as the bible says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - meaning if you are going to share and expect people to listen, you will have to do the same when they share something you may not want to hear....otherwise, stop sharing. (Not directed to you personally)
Sometimes Christians do shove it down peoples throats. That's just the truth of the matter. However, those Christians are a vast minority who should not be taken to reflect the entire faith.
Having seen the show (not this episode but a couple of other episodes), I would say it's not the show that portrays Christians as being evil and mean.....it portrays a person being rabid and close-minded while they're being rabid and close-minded - traits that are unflattering, no matter why (whether it be religion or economic class or any other excuse).
Share your good news....I have no problem with that. Just don't complain if people don't want to share AND as the bible says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - meaning if you are going to share and expect people to listen, you will have to do the same when they share something you may not want to hear....otherwise, stop sharing. (Not directed to you personally)
Sometimes Christians do shove it down peoples throats. That's just the truth of the matter. However, those Christians are a vast minority who should not be taken to reflect the entire faith.
Yes and no. The oldest text known to man is actually the tale of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, a Babylonian tale. There are also sub-stories in that book that make reference to Noah and the Flood, which you could take as proof that it really did happen, or that the Bible was merely setting down an already ancient myth.
From a purely literary point of view, the Bible provides an interesting look into the common myths, tales and customs of the days in which it was written and edited. Yes, the Bible was edited, get over it. In the 12th century a bunch of monks sat down together and poured over the whole Book, decided what should stay in, what should get left out and what new works to include. The books they took out now form the Apocrypha. This is where you can find the story of Lillith, the real First Woman, who left Eden because she didn't think Adam had the right to be dominant over her. "She wanted to be on top." The rest of the story goes on to paint Lillith as this evil creature who was carried off to hell by a horde of demons...which speaks to me more of a desire to keep women in their 'place' than anything. Then God made Eve who was happier to be more submissive and everything was great until the whole Serpent and the Fruit of Life debacle. There's also a difference in the Protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible, quite interesting if you have the time to sit down and compare. For example, there's no book by the name of St. Austin in the NIV version, but there is in the Catholic.
I used to keep a Bible in my room as a kid in the belief that it would keep away the monsters and it was the first thing I grabbed when the tornado sirens went off, because if I had the Bible with me then God wouldn't let a tornado hit my house. I've lived in this area for almost 20 years and I've never even seen a tornado.
The WifeSwap thing I think is such a terrible, staged idea. They probably went out and picked the most odious Christan women they could find, just because. Speaking of astrology, a co-worker lent me this book on astrological birthdays yesterday, and what it read for mine was eerily accurate...