"In God We Trust"

[Puckstop31]

The first question I have to ask is have you watched the show? If so, you must know that they tend to work with families who are opposite each other.

No I have not. It is fine that they picked families who are opposites. Did they have to pick THIS particular "Christian" to represent our faith? I do not think it was mistake they picked somebody with a personality like that.

If you think Hollywood does not have a bias AGAINST the Christian faith, I think you are lying to yourself.

Having seen the show (not this episode but a couple of other episodes), I would say it's not the show that portrays Christians as being evil and mean.....it portrays a person being rabid and close-minded while they're being rabid and close-minded - traits that are unflattering, no matter why (whether it be religion or economic class or any other excuse).

You are much more intelligent than their target audience would be, I think. I could be wrong, because I AM sterotyping "reality TV" here.

Share your good news....I have no problem with that. Just don't complain if people don't want to share AND as the bible says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - meaning if you are going to share and expect people to listen, you will have to do the same when they share something you may not want to hear....otherwise, stop sharing. (Not directed to you personally)

I have no problem with other people sharing. In fact, I encourage it. I like it when people are not afraid to say what they really believe. When a person is able to be that honest with themself, then it is possible to reach them.

I know this was not directed at me personally, but thank you for saying so.

Sometimes Christians do shove it down peoples throats. That's just the truth of the matter. However, those Christians are a vast minority who should not be taken to reflect the entire faith.

Some may see it as "shoving". Others might see it as being "persistant".

 

[Dreeza]

Yes and no. The oldest text known to man is actually the tale of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, a Babylonian tale. There are also sub-stories in that book that make reference to Noah and the Flood, which you could take as proof that it really did happen, or that the Bible was merely setting down an already ancient myth.

From a purely literary point of view, the Bible provides an interesting look into the common myths, tales and customs of the days in which it was written and edited. Yes, the Bible was edited, get over it. In the 12th century a bunch of monks sat down together and poured over the whole Book, decided what should stay in, what should get left out and what new works to include. The books they took out now form the Apocrypha. This is where you can find the story of Lillith, the real First Woman, who left Eden because she didn't think Adam had the right to be dominant over her. "She wanted to be on top." The rest of the story goes on to paint Lillith as this evil creature who was carried off to hell by a horde of demons...which speaks to me more of a desire to keep women in their 'place' than anything. Then God made Eve who was happier to be more submissive and everything was great until the whole Serpent and the Fruit of Life debacle. There's also a difference in the Protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible, quite interesting if you have the time to sit down and compare. For example, there's no book by the name of St. Austin in the NIV version, but there is in the Catholic.

I used to keep a Bible in my room as a kid in the belief that it would keep away the monsters and it was the first thing I grabbed when the tornado sirens went off, because if I had the Bible with me then God wouldn't let a tornado hit my house. I've lived in this area for almost 20 years and I've never even seen a tornado.

The WifeSwap thing I think is such a terrible, staged idea. They probably went out and picked the most odious Christan women they could find, just because. Speaking of astrology, a co-worker lent me this book on astrological birthdays yesterday, and what it read for mine was eerily accurate...

whoa, i never knew that thing about lillith..VERY interesting!

and as to the astrology thing, lol...they did a psych experiment, where everyone was given a personal horoscope based on astrology...and after they read it, they were asked to rate how accurate it was on a scale of 1-5 (5 being very accurate) EVERY person said either 4 or 5. They were then asked to pass theirs to the person behind them...and read it. EVERY one was the EXACT same thing...

they are made to seem accurate...but they apply to everyone, pretty much.

 

[AndrewF]

For example, there's no book by the name of St. Austin in the NIV version, but there is in the Catholic.

I believe there's actually 4 books in the catholic bible that the other denominations leave out (an extra psalms is one I believe) - regarless of version. My King James version doesn't have those 4 books either.

 

[Puckstop31]

In the 12th century a bunch of monks sat down together and poured over the whole Book, decided what should stay in, what should get left out and what new works to include.

And thus one one of the things that we, as Christians, must take on faith. The fact that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God.

The books they took out now form the Apocrypha. This is where you can find the story of Lillith, the real First Woman, who left Eden because she didn't think Adam had the right to be dominant over her. "She wanted to be on top." The rest of the story goes on to paint Lillith as this evil creature who was carried off to hell by a horde of demons...which speaks to me more of a desire to keep women in their 'place' than anything.

PUH-lease tell me you do not believe this drek? Do you think God would make a mistake?

I used to keep a Bible in my room as a kid in the belief that it would keep away the monsters and it was the first thing I grabbed when the tornado sirens went off, because if I had the Bible with me then God wouldn't let a tornado hit my house. I've lived in this area for almost 20 years and I've never even seen a tornado.

The Bible is a book. Burn it, stomp on it, whatever... It is the WORDS that LIVE in me that matter.

 

[Zoom]

And thus one one of the things that we, as Christians, must take on faith. The fact that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God.

Inspired yes, but still subject to the meddling and agendas of Man. Let's go back to the Crusades. Supposedly inspired by God as well, but we went through that in another thread.

PUH-lease tell me you do not believe this drek? Do you think God would make a mistake?

Why call it drek? Because it's not what you believe? And nowhere did I say it was a mistake. The only 'mistake' is that God gave Adam free will and Adam decided that since he was already lord over all the animals, obviously he should be lord over women as well. And since God wanted to keep Adam happy, he fashioned Eve for him and God already knew that two women with one man was just asking for trouble, so out Lillith went.

The Bible is a book. Burn it, stomp on it, whatever... It is the WORDS that LIVE in me that matter.

But as a child I used it as a holy talisman. Just like the crosses that people wear around their necks. I thought that God would see that I had the Bible, know that a good Christian lived there and would spare my house and all of us in it. Similar logic to Passover and painting symbols in lamb's blood so the Angel of Death would spare those in that particular house. I realize it's a Jewish tradition/custom, but we share religious roots with Judism, so it's not total bunk. Again, remember I was a little kid at the time.

 

[AndrewF]

No I have not. It is fine that they picked families who are opposites. Did they have to pick THIS particular "Christian" to represent our faith? I do not think it was mistake they picked somebody with a personality like that.

If you think Hollywood does not have a bias AGAINST the Christian faith, I think you are lying to yourself.

You said it best right there ("...I do not think it was mistake they picked somebody with a personality like that."). It was the somebody as opposed to what they represent. (the show picks on all sorts - not just Christians)

As for bias, I would say there's a bias towards keeping religion to a minimum as opposed to a bias against one religion.

 

[Dixie]

The 4 books not found in the NIV, but found in Catholic Bibles is known as the Apocrypha. These 4 books were included in the early Bible, but were later removed after the Lutheran movement. There is also speculation over another "gospel" called the Gospel of Timothy that has been found and currently undergoing study, that tells an entirely new version of what happened the night Peter betrayed Jesus. Do a Google search and it should come up.

Also- Puck, TV does not influence me hardly. I was simply making a point that just because a person claims to be Christian doesnt meant that they will necessarily act Christian. And while Astrology is often labeled as "evil" in Christian circles, the astrologist displayed more respectful behavior towards the host family's faith, by not cutting them down or forcing her views on them.

Ive seen good Christians who are also pretty-open minded. They dont cut down others simply because their belief is different. And Ive seen some athiests cut down Christians because of their belief in God. Hate, stereotyping and such goes both ways, no matter the religion or faith. All that I ever ask from people is that they respect my views the same way I respect theirs.

And you are right, they probably did try to find the worst Christian woman that they could and put here right directly in the middle of a reality show so she could show her wide ass. Im sure Jesus was just as displeased with her behavior as I was - although Im sure hes displeased with mine as well.

And yes I did leave out the tales of Gilgamesh, and perhaps I should have stated that the Bible is ONE of the oldest texts known to man, but its still an important tool to use to learn about early civilizations.

Again, not knocking anyone's faith, but just throwing in my two cents.

-Dixie

 

[Puckstop31]

Inspired yes, but still subject to the meddling and agendas of Man.

This is where we will haev to agree to disagree. I do not believe God would allow us to meddle with the ONE way we have to get to heaven.

Let's go back to the Crusades. Supposedly inspired by God as well, but we went through that in another thread.

As I said in the thread where we discussed this... Inspired by the Catholic Church. I do not believe the Catholic Church is the world authority on Christianity. There is way to many things they do that are in contradiction to His teachings.

Why call it drek? Because it's not what you believe? And nowhere did I say it was a mistake.

By saying that what is in the Bible is wrong and that men/woman had PRIDE (such as the woman you describe, being dragged into Hell) BEFORE the fall of man implies (whether you knew it or not) that God made a mistake. He makes NONE. THAT is why this story is drek.

The only 'mistake' is that God gave Adam free will and Adam decided that since he was already lord over all the animals, obviously he should be lord over women as well.

Again, you go wrong in saying that man (humanity) would have had prideful thoughts BEFORE the fall of man. Before the fall, man was PERFECT. Also, EVE did not make man fall, Satan did. Eve was merely the person he chose to dupe, nothing should be implied there about the fraility of women.

Also, do not forget that a TRUE Christian man does NOT dominate his wife. Everybody knows the passages in the Bible that command a woman to be submissive to her husband. BUT, men are commanded to "love their wives as Christ loves the Church." That is a IMPOSSIBLE task. I love my wife more than anything in the world and would sacrfice my life in a instant if it meant her life could go on. BUT, that does not even come close to how much God loves us. Men who think that men should rule woman like slaves, are NOT true Christian men.

What you say here is feminist drek. I do not like the idea in this world that women are inferior to men. We NEED each other to go on. Both sides bring unique things to the table and when properly mixed, make things smoother. Bummer that our PRIDE gets in the way of that too often.

But as a child I used it as a holy talisman. Just like the crosses that people wear around their necks. I thought that God would see that I had the Bible, know that a good Christian lived there and would spare my house and all of us in it. Similar logic to Passover and painting symbols in lamb's blood so the Angel of Death would spare those in that particular house. I realize it's a Jewish tradition/custom, but we share religious roots with Judism, so it's not total bunk. Again, remember I was a little kid at the time.

With Jesus's sacrifice on Calvary, we entered into a new covenant with Him. Before Jesus, the Jews had to sacrifice animals to attone for thier sin. Jesus, the Lamb of God, was the final sacrifice. Now all we need is faith. Because of this, the idea that there is nothing really tangible we MUST do to be saved, man has a problem with it. I understand why, but do all I can to get the TRUTH out there.

 

[Puckstop31]

Do a Google search and it should come up.

Will do.

Also- Puck, TV does not influence me hardly. I was simply making a point that just because a person claims to be Christian doesnt meant that they will necessarily act Christian. And while Astrology is often labeled as "evil" in Christian circles, the astrologist displayed more respectful behavior towards the host family's faith, by not cutting them down or forcing her views on them.

Before I say what I want to say... This IS a friendly debate, so don't take anything I say personally.

The commission Jesus gave us does not support the modern concept of "political correctness". Just because we seem to be "shoing" it in your face has NOTHING to do with disrespect. It is because we care so much for your soul. Look around the world... The Bible's prophicies (sp?) are being shown more and more each day... Time grows short for this world.

Political Correctness is slavery dressed up like tolerance and equality.

All that I ever ask from people is that they respect my views the same way I respect theirs.

I do respect any persons views. But if I disagree with them, especially on THIS topic. I will do anything I can to show you otherwise. It has NOTHING to do with lack of respect for your position.

Im sure hes displeased with mine as well.

He is... BUT, he loves you even more that he is willing to forgive you. All you need to do is believe and ASK.

 

[nedim]

You know what, after what happenned at school today, I couldnt care less about this one phrase. People need to focus on keeping the **** schools safe for the kids who go there to accomplish something.

 

[Zoom]

This is where we will haev to agree to disagree. I do not believe God would allow us to meddle with the ONE way we have to get to heaven.

God allows us to do all sorts of things with our one way of getting to Heaven. This where the free will comes into play. We know what we're supposed to do, but we can choose not to do it just as easily. I'm not saying the entire Bible was re-written, but it has been altered from it's 'original' form.

As I said in the thread where we discussed this... Inspired by the Catholic Church. I do not believe the Catholic Church is the world authority on Christianity. There is way to many things they do that are in contradiction to His teachings.

Such as? I'm asking out of curiosity here, not because I'm any great expert on the modern Catholic church. Most of what I know comes from Elizabethan times.

By saying that what is in the Bible is wrong and that men/woman had PRIDE (such as the woman you describe, being dragged into Hell) BEFORE the fall of man implies (whether you knew it or not) that God made a mistake. He makes NONE. THAT is why this story is drek.

Again, not saying that it is wrong, only that it has been edited. What do you think happened when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1945? Those writings were not in the Bible before, but I think they've since been added, thus changing what the Bible contains.

Soon afterward the young son of the king took ill, Said Nebuchadnezzar, "Heal my son. If you don't, I will kill you." Ben Sira immediately sat down and wrote an amulet with the Holy Name, and he inscribed on it the angels in charge of medicine by their names, forms and images, and by their wings, hands, and feet. Nebuchadnezzar looked at the amulet. "Who are these?"
"The angles who are in charge of medicine: Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof. After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air.

Is this pride or an insistance on following what God intended?

Again, you go wrong in saying that man (humanity) would have had prideful thoughts BEFORE the fall of man. Before the fall, man was PERFECT. Also, EVE did not make man fall, Satan did.

I think you're misconstruing the differences between good pride and sinful pride. Sinful pride is the kind where you believe that you know best, so the exclusion of anything else. I think you can pick an example out of someone on the board here. Good pride is knowing you have done a job well. I'm sure you are proud of your experiences in the military and are just as proud of your wife. Is that type of pride a sin?

If man was perfect, then why was he subject to the gullibility and shortsightedness that lead to the Fall? Free will negates at least a little bit of perfection.

Eve was merely the person he chose to dupe, nothing should be implied there about the fraility of women.

No kidding. I think one of the stupidest edicts issued by the early Church was to make it a sin to give a woman in labor anything to ease the pain, because the pain was God's punishment to Eve and to lessen pain was to contradict God. Thankfully we've moved past that era.

Also, do not forget that a TRUE Christian man does NOT dominate his wife. Everybody knows the passages in the Bible that command a woman to be submissive to her husband. BUT, men are commanded to "love their wives as Christ loves the Church." That is a IMPOSSIBLE task. I love my wife more than anything in the world and would sacrfice my life in a instant if it meant her life could go on. BUT, that does not even come close to how much God loves us. Men who think that men should rule woman like slaves, are NOT true Christian men.

You are holding to a modern interpretation though, a Promise Keepers version of the acceptable roles of husband and wife. Remember, the word "obey" was only in the wife's side of the wedding vows, not the husband's. You are also in danger of falling into a state of sinful pride in your implication that you are better than any of the Christians who came before you. It was accepted custom verging on religious dogma that men were superior to women, with all rights and privledges he saw fit to create and enforce.

What you say here is feminist drek. I do not like the idea in this world that women are inferior to men. We NEED each other to go on. Both sides bring unique things to the table and when properly mixed, make things smoother. Bummer that our PRIDE gets in the way of that too often.

Glad to see that you agree with the feminist agenda then. This "feminist drek" as you call it has been brought about by centuries of patriarchy that had a religious endorsement on it. You know as well as I do that people have this awesome habit of picking out biblical passages to suit their needs. Good Christian practices or not, women have been subjugated to the detriment of both sexes. You and I both agree that each party has strengths that counter the others shortcomings and a good marriage and partnership recognizes and accomodates this. However, again, this is a fairly new idea in it being widely socially acceptable.

With Jesus's sacrifice on Calvary, we entered into a new covenant with Him. Before Jesus, the Jews had to sacrifice animals to attone for thier sin. Jesus, the Lamb of God, was the final sacrifice. Now all we need is faith. Because of this, the idea that there is nothing really tangible we MUST do to be saved, man has a problem with it. I understand why, but do all I can to get the TRUTH out there.

Not to sound snarky, but this information is nothing new to me. I grew up in a half-religous home (Mom is, Dad isn't) and went to church at least on sundays and again on Wednesdays when I got old enough to get involved in youth groups. I keep getting the feeling that you see me as having no "hands-on" Christian experience and I would just like to correct that assumption.

 

[GlassOnion]

Sweet Jesus this thread grew fast...

I haven't read anything from page 5 to 6, I don't have that much time (and I fried my brian on a chem test today so...)

But I will address this:

I'd love to discuss it with ya. Just remember that God is not really "logical" and that the physical and metaphysical, CANNOT ever truely mix.

It's quite simple really. The Noble Lie was a theory Plato came up with. He realized that humans are naturally evil and chaotic and thus they needed some other guiding force so they would remain docile. So he called it the Noble Lie. A promise of a higher being and after life for living a 'good' life. This gave people something to be good for. A reason to follow the laws.

Now this was 347 years before Christ supposedly walked the Earth. So how was Plato to know about a higher being? The bible hadn't been 'written' yet. (or the way I understand it, at least). So you have the creation of a higher being due simply to bring order to chaos.

The way that ties into The Cave and the arguement is that in The Cave a slave escapes his cell. He sees the outside world and tells the other slaves about it. They don't believe him, having known only the cave for their whole life they're reluctant to believe the truth. They try to escape their cells and kill the slave who's speaking such 'blasphemy'.

This is obviously symbolic of a man seeing the truth and others not believing him because all they know is a set path and they can't change. Now that could be taken both ways, but it correlates very well with people getting angry over when you deny that there's a God. Think about the middle ages where speaking against the church was punishable by death. People just don't want to hear stuff that's contrary to their belief in fear that the other person might just be right.

 

[Puckstop31]

Such as? I'm asking out of curiosity here, not because I'm any great expert on the modern Catholic church. Most of what I know comes from Elizabethan times.

We were talking about the Crusades and the motivation for them.

Again, not saying that it is wrong, only that it has been edited. What do you think happened when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1945? Those writings were not in the Bible before, but I think they've since been added, thus changing what the Bible contains.

I am not saying it does not change. What I am saying is that I believe any change is part of Gods plan. I say this to counter those who argue that the bible is simply a "book written by men". Men penned it, God inspired it.

Is this pride or an insistance on following what God intended?

I believe it to be netiher. I believe this to be a lie. If this supposedly happened BEFORE Eve, Adam and Lillith would NOT fight. They were PERFECT (created in Gods image) BEFORE the first sin.

Eve's sin is where man fell from God's grace and perfection.

I think you're misconstruing the differences between good pride and sinful pride. Sinful pride is the kind where you believe that you know best, so the exclusion of anything else. I think you can pick an example out of someone on the board here. Good pride is knowing you have done a job well. I'm sure you are proud of your experiences in the military and are just as proud of your wife. Is that type of pride a sin?

Well, yes. yes, I am proud of my accomplishments in life, but I should not think those things make me better than others, but I often do. Yes, I am VERY proud of my wife (hubba, hubba... ) but she is no more perfect than any other...Except in my eye.

Pride is pride... A sin is a sin.... NO sin is better or worse in God's eye.

I know it is hard to imagine a world with NO sin, it is almost unhuman... But perhaps that is the point?

If man was perfect, then why was he subject to the gullibility and shortsightedness that lead to the Fall? Free will negates at least a little bit of perfection.

Only if that free will is used incorrectly. Just because you CAN do something, does not mean you should. God had to know that we would fall. He gave Satan domain over the Earth and thus knew we would eventually be decieved by him. Why do all of this if God knew we would fall? I don't know. That is on the list for when I see Him someday.

You are holding to a modern interpretation though, a Promise Keepers version of the acceptable roles of husband and wife. Remember, the word "obey" was only in the wife's side of the wedding vows, not the husband's.

Traditional vows perhaps... There is nothing that says what we should SAY to each other. What we do is more important.

You are also in danger of falling into a state of sinful pride in your implication that you are better than any of the Christians who came before you.

Nice spin... You should be a journalist. TRUE Christian men, the ones who follow the BIBLEs teaching, not some "church man". I implied nothing with my statement. I just know there is a big difference between a man whos calls himself a Christian and one who really does try to follow Christ.

Finally, I KNOW I am a sinner. You need not point it out. The difference is I KNOW I am forgiven, before I even do it. How about you? Please note that this knowledge does NOT give me permission to do whatever I want, just because I am saved.

It was accepted custom verging on religious dogma that men were superior to women, with all rights and privledges he saw fit to create and enforce.

I cannot be held culpable for the acts of foolish people.

This "feminist drek" as you call it has been brought about by centuries of patriarchy that had a religious endorsement on it.

Religious? Perhaps.... CHRISTIAN... Not so much. I will submit that just because a church calls itself Christian, does not mean it is. You can blame God all you want, but it is the PEOPLE that make up the Church who fail. So blame THEM and NOT the faith.

Good Christian practices or not, women have been subjugated to the detriment of both sexes.

Again, I nor my faith should be held culpable for the actions of foolish men. I think you assume to much about Christianity.

Not to sound snarky, but this information is nothing new to me. I grew up in a half-religous home (Mom is, Dad isn't) and went to church at least on sundays and again on Wednesdays when I got old enough to get involved in youth groups. I keep getting the feeling that you see me as having no "hands-on" Christian experience and I would just like to correct that assumption.

Fair enough... So what happened to make you not accept the truth? Or, what happened that makes you not believe? I am not being cocky, I really want to know. PM if you need.

 

[Puckstop31]

It's quite simple really. The Noble Lie was a theory Plato came up with. He realized that humans are naturally evil and chaotic and thus they needed some other guiding force so they would remain docile. So he called it the Noble Lie. A promise of a higher being and after life for living a 'good' life. This gave people something to be good for. A reason to follow the laws.

Living the path is difficult. Things like this are mans way of "reasoning" his way around having to do the right thing. Man is NOT more wise than God.

Humans are NOT naturally evil or chaotic. Our sin makes us that way.

The way that ties into The Cave and the arguement is that in The Cave a slave escapes his cell. He sees the outside world and tells the other slaves about it. They don't believe him, having known only the cave for their whole life they're reluctant to believe the truth. They try to escape their cells and kill the slave who's speaking such 'blasphemy'.

This is obviously symbolic of a man seeing the truth and others not believing him because all they know is a set path and they can't change. Now that could be taken both ways, but it correlates very well with people getting angry over when you deny that there's a God. Think about the middle ages where speaking against the church was punishable by death. People just don't want to hear stuff that's contrary to their belief in fear that the other person might just be right.

Again, I am not culpable forthe actions of foolish men who were not really disciples of Christ. I cannot argue that "Christian" churches have done horrible things in the past in the name of God. Look past the fluff, stop looking for excuses to not follow the path, shoosh for a second and just LISTEN to your heart. You don't read the Bible with your eyes and brain... You read it with your heart.

I used to think just like you do. But, when I read the Bible with an open mind and WITHOUT pre-defined conclusions, I saw things differently.

Actually, I WANT to hear things contrary to my faith. Not because I want to "win" a arguement, because I care about your soul.

I argue these topics because, to me, it is literally a life or death matter.

 

[GlassOnion]

The problem is you're speaking through religion. I'm speaking through logic.

They don't go together. As someone said, oil and water. Two different stances that cannot mix because they contradict each other.

Humans are NOT naturally evil or chaotic. Our sin makes us that way.

The first part could be argued easily by taking away all forms of government, laws, and order and watch chaos ensue. Mass mobs, looting, rioting, murders, rapes, pillaging. A return to survival of the fittest.

But then you tack on "Our sin makes us that way", which makes the statement void because it can't be proven. No one can go back to the garden of Eden and see if sin REALLY makes us that way.

So like I said, logic and religion don't mix. Religion deals in faith. Logic deals in the concrete.


I was just pointing out my arguement because someone asked me to. This is more or less the same path all religious debates follow, thus why I'm always apprehensive to get involved in them. Nothing good ever comes from them.

Edit: By the way you can never do anything "from the heart" with a truly open mind as the subconscious is always judging things for you, whether you're aware of it or not.

 

[Puckstop31]

The problem is you're speaking through religion. I'm speaking through logic.

They don't go together. As someone said, oil and water. Two different stances that cannot mix because they contradict each other.

That was me... They don't, but I still like to try. LOL

Try this one on...

I think it is ILLOGICAL for man to think that this magnificently beautiful world just happened. To me, the only logical explanation for this world is that it was created by God.

Religion, is not by itself illogical. So I would say that I argue metaphysics, you argue physics. To say it the way you do, makes it sound like you are right and I am not. (I know that was not your intent, but I just wanted to point it out.)

The first part could be argued easily by taking away all forms of government, laws, and order and watch chaos ensue. Mass mobs, looting, rioting, murders, rapes, pillaging. A return to survival of the fittest.

Before or after the fall of man?

Be careful when you use words like "obviously" and "easily", my young (19? 20?) friend.

But then you tack on "Our sin makes us that way", which makes the statement void because it can't be proven. No one can go back to the garden of Eden and see if sin REALLY makes us that way.

Physics vs. MetaPhysics.... "Proof" eh? What would it take to prove to you God exists? Think about it hard before you answer, else you might step in something....

So like I said, logic and religion don't mix. Religion deals in faith. Logic deals in the concrete.

See what I said before about your use of terminology. Just because I have a faith, does not make me ignorant of the world around me.

I was just pointing out my arguement because someone asked me to. This is more or less the same path all religious debates follow, thus why I'm always apprehensive to get involved in them. Nothing good ever comes from them.

Good often does... A clear winner, often not. I have learned a lot in this so far.

By the way you can never do anything "from the heart" with a truly open mind as the subconscious is always judging things for you, whether you're aware of it or not.

I think that "subconcious" IS your "heart".

OK, gotta go... I look forward to diving into this tomorrow!

 

[GlassOnion]

I'm not convinced the subconscious is your heart. It's just a reaction of your innate feelings. Which may be considered your heart but that's like saying that your heart is controlling your involuntary muscles.

Your brain is controlling it, the same as you subconscious thoughts, not the 'heart'. (and yes I mean that in the symbolic meaning, not the literal).

I think it is ILLOGICAL for man to think that this magnificently beautiful world just happened. To me, the only logical explanation for this world is that it was created by God.

And I agree completely. I believe in a higher being, but I don't believe that he's obligated to fulfill our every whim and desire, nor offer us safe haven if an after life does indeed exist.
I believe things are WAY too complex to be a result of evolution. Evolution doesn't really make sense to me. How could it create such a perfect organism as the human body? Sure some say we've adapted to our environment over time but I'm talking about the things inside.

For instance, the way amino acids react in our body baffle me. I can't imagine it being a result of evolution. Our bodies are WAY too complex to just be left to chance like that. Our circulatory system alone is incredibly complex.


But the more educated I get the harder I find it to believe in some being who's completely engaged in our life, who cares for the billions of people in the world and that praying to them will make any difference what so ever.

I don't believe in God in the traditional sense. A higher being, sure, but not the Christian God (or even the Islam, Buddhist, etc.).

I think that all the 'prophets' saw the same person but just intepretted his words differently.

But I also believe in the Noble Lie as a way of governing the masses. Think about how much bedlam we'd have without having those values pounded into our heads since day one. If we were never taught that adultery was wrong, we wouldn't think twice about it.

But then again we ourselves define right and wrong, so maybe there IS no right and wrong, just what society commonly agrees on. But that's an entirely different debate.

 

[Zoom]

Before I get into the rest of this, I do have a correction to make. Gilgamesh is Akkadian, not Babylonian.

I believe it to be netiher. I believe this to be a lie. If this supposedly happened BEFORE Eve, Adam and Lillith would NOT fight. They were PERFECT (created in Gods image) BEFORE the first sin.

So to follow, sin originated with Adam and Eve? If so, then where did the motivation for the war in Heaven orginate? I know that Lucifer started it out of Pride, but wouldn't that imply that sin existed before then? Or are you only talking about humanity's sins? As an aside, you should read "Memnoch the Devil" by Anne Rice. Interesting theories if nothing else.

Eve's sin is where man fell from God's grace and perfection.

The mother of all humanity and of all suffering. Not bad for a day's work.

Pride is pride... A sin is a sin.... NO sin is better or worse in God's eye.

I know it is hard to imagine a world with NO sin, it is almost unhuman... But perhaps that is the point?

"A sin is a sin" and if people would remember that and stop categorizing them, then I think we would all be a lot better off. But about pride, if it's a sin, does that mean that God doesn't want me to try in my life's endevors? I'm proud of the fact that I'm a very hard and dedicated worker...if I wasn't proud of my work ethic, then I wouldn't give a sh*t and probably end up on the streets. A little bit of pride is necessary to make the world go 'round, otherwise I forsee the mass of humanity wallowing in unwashed depression. I can't quite see that being God's ultimate plan.

Only if that free will is used incorrectly. Just because you CAN do something, does not mean you should. God had to know that we would fall. He gave Satan domain over the Earth and thus knew we would eventually be decieved by him. Why do all of this if God knew we would fall? I don't know. That is on the list for when I see Him someday.

That whole concept of being set up to fall sparked a week long discussion in my Early World Lit. class when we were reading John Milton's Paradise Lost. God had sent Uriel to guard Eden against Satan, had constructed a wall around Eden but failed to make it impenetrable.

"...this high seat, your Heaven
Ill fenced for Heaven to keep out such a foe
As now is entered..."
Line 373-374

Apparently Uriel was taking a coffee break when Satan hopped the fence and took up residence in the Tree of Life. So if this was all a part of God's Divine Plan...maybe it was to ensconce the memeory of a Paradise in the minds of humanity and give them something to dream about and strive for as they toiled through life in their mortal coil. Oh, I rhymed.

Now, I can guess you're thinking something along the lines of "Milton's work aren't Biblical." My response to your assumed thinking is this: Why not? Milton wa trained for a life of ministry, but chose to not take his vows out of dissatisfaction with the way the Church of England was currently being run. Between that and the fact that the Bible had already been somewhat codified by time, those kept him out of the physical Bible. But who's to say that he was not just as Divinely Inspired as his predecessors?

Nice spin... You should be a journalist.

Almost was. But I don't like barging into people's personal lives for the sake of a deadline.

TRUE Christian men, the ones who follow the BIBLEs teaching, not some "church man". I implied nothing with my statement. I just know there is a big difference between a man whos calls himself a Christian and one who really does try to follow Christ.

So what do you think of Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps? To much of the country, they are the current face of Christianity, the epitome of what it means to be Christian.

Religious? Perhaps.... CHRISTIAN... Not so much. I will submit that just because a church calls itself Christian, does not mean it is. You can blame God all you want, but it is the PEOPLE that make up the Church who fail. So blame THEM and NOT the faith.

But if people are the ones who are the bodily representation of the faith, then wherewho does Johnny Football look for/to for guidance?

Again, I nor my faith should be held culpable for the actions of foolish men. I think you assume to much about Christianity.

"Neither I nor my faith.." Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'm not holding you responsible, but you have become the spokesman for this particular thread. The thing about intagibles such as faith is that without an understandable form (in this case, people) they remain intangible. People give faith form and substance and acquire culpability in the process.



Fair enough... So what happened to make you not accept the truth? Or, what happened that makes you not believe? I am not being cocky, I really want to know. PM if you need. [/QUOTE]

I believe in God and officially accepted Christ when I was 12; I know I'm going to Heaven when I die. My issues/problems stem from the current affair Christianity is having with politics. As you keep on saying, there is what a Christian should be and how they should act and how a growing portion of them are acting. I'll continue the rest of this via PM.

 

[Puckstop31]

I'm not convinced the subconscious is your heart. It's just a reaction of your innate feelings. Which may be considered your heart but that's like saying that your heart is controlling your involuntary muscles.

Your brain is controlling it, the same as you subconscious thoughts, not the 'heart'. (and yes I mean that in the symbolic meaning, not the literal).

Of course your brain controls it... Lets not use the word heart any more... How about we interchange that with "Internal Moral Compass" or "SOUL". OK?

Call it what you like, I am tlaking about the little "angel" and "devil" on your shoulder. THAT is God talking to you... Or somebody else sometimes...

I believe in a higher being, but I don't believe that he's obligated to fulfill our every whim and desire, nor offer us safe haven if an after life does indeed exist.

Of course he is not obligated. He is GOD. BUT, because he LOVES us so much, He DOES provide a way for us to be with Him, for eternity. How cool is that? OMNIPOTENT God, cares enought about YOU or me, we insignificant specks of dust, to let us into his home, we only need knock on the door.

I believe things are WAY too complex to be a result of evolution. Evolution doesn't really make sense to me. How could it create such a perfect organism as the human body? Sure some say we've adapted to our environment over time but I'm talking about the things inside.

I am still waiting for the Evolutionists to answer the question of "irreducible complexity" myself...

But the more educated I get the harder I find it to believe in some being who's completely engaged in our life, who cares for the billions of people in the world and that praying to them will make any difference what so ever.

He does, ALL the time. The problem is, He often does not give us the answer we want, OR expect. To see Him work, you have to listen and look around for a second.

But I also believe in the Noble Lie as a way of governing the masses. Think about how much bedlam we'd have without having those values pounded into our heads since day one. If we were never taught that adultery was wrong, we wouldn't think twice about it.

Here is where you expose yourself... You don't WANT to follow those rules, so you are kinda rebelling against them. Not uncommon. Do you REALLY think that if we were not taught that it is wrong, that it would be OK? Don't male dogs get defensive when other male dogs come around "their" bitch? Or how about the primates in nature that mate for life?

There ARE moral absolutes in this world and it is not a coincidence. Like it or not.

But then again we ourselves define right and wrong, so maybe there IS no right and wrong, just what society commonly agrees on. But that's an entirely different debate.

See above and YES it is another debate entirely.

 

[Puckstop31]

So to follow, sin originated with Adam and Eve? If so, then where did the motivation for the war in Heaven orginate? I know that Lucifer started it out of Pride, but wouldn't that imply that sin existed before then?

Sin is a human condition. Lucifer is not Human.

The mother of all humanity and of all suffering. Not bad for a day's work.

Like I said, read nothing into the fact the Devil chose to tempt Eve. If he would have tempted Adam instead, I don't think things would be much different.

"A sin is a sin" and if people would remember that and stop categorizing them, then I think we would all be a lot better off. But about pride, if it's a sin, does that mean that God doesn't want me to try in my life's endevors? I'm proud of the fact that I'm a very hard and dedicated worker...if I wasn't proud of my work ethic, then I wouldn't give a sh*t and probably end up on the streets. A little bit of pride is necessary to make the world go 'round, otherwise I forsee the mass of humanity wallowing in unwashed depression. I can't quite see that being God's ultimate plan.

I understand what you are saying. But, instead of pride, can't you do a good job with a joyful and thankful heart because of all the wonderful things to Lord gives us? Can't you work hard out of Thanksgiving to the Lord?

I thank God everyday for my health and the fact that I can play hockey still. I try to excel, often just for myself, but I try to thank Him before each game and TRY to remember that HE is the one that allwos me to play that silly game I LOVE so much.

Now, I can guess you're thinking something along the lines of "Milton's work aren't Biblical." My response to your assumed thinking is this: Why not? Milton wa trained for a life of ministry, but chose to not take his vows out of dissatisfaction with the way the Church of England was currently being run. Between that and the fact that the Bible had already been somewhat codified by time, those kept him out of the physical Bible. But who's to say that he was not just as Divinely Inspired as his predecessors?

One word...

FAITH. Faith that if it was supposed to be in there, it would. See, here is an example of where the physical world (logic) and the metaphysical (feelings, subconcious) CANNOT mix.

There are things we pitiful humans will NEVER be able to explain. Some things, you just have to take on faith. That is not to say we should stop striving for knowledge, but we will never be able to figure it all out. NEVER.

So what do you think of Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps? To much of the country, they are the current face of Christianity, the epitome of what it means to be Christian.

I believe Billy Graham is a true man of God. I feel the power of the Lord when I hear him talk. The others... Tools of the devil, used to decieve and lie people away from the truth.

But, KNOW this Zoom. Those men at the end of your list DO NOT define my faith. They are what the "world" WANTS it to be, to make that nagging voice in their subconcious go away. THEY are NOT about what it means to be a Christian.

But if people are the ones who are the bodily representation of the faith, then wherewho does Johnny Football look for/to for guidance?

I don't know... I can only be concerned about the souls the Lord puts in my path.

"Neither I nor my faith.." Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'm not holding you responsible, but you have become the spokesman for this particular thread. The thing about intagibles such as faith is that without an understandable form (in this case, people) they remain intangible. People give faith form and substance and acquire culpability in the process.

Very true indeed. Your a smart cookie Zoom. I guess it is that point that makes the Lords work so hard. So many people do horrible things in the name of God. That is what people remember. Not sure what else I can say except the bad apples ARE NOT what my faith is about. Like I said, I think a lot of people WANT the bad apples to be there, to justify the ways they live their lives.

I believe in God and officially accepted Christ when I was 12; I know I'm going to Heaven when I die. My issues/problems stem from the current affair Christianity is having with politics. As you keep on saying, there is what a Christian should be and how they should act and how a growing portion of them are acting. I'll continue the rest of this via PM.

I agree that faith and politics are poor bedfellows. See arguement about "Physical vs. Metaphysical". They ARE oil and water.