Gwinnywillow

[Gwinnywillow]

Then he quite obviously was not everything a shepherd should be. Things like moving are rather important to people who work their dogs.

I've learned quite a bit from this thread, thanks!

Hatter was arthritic and his hips had given way by age 8. Common with many of the working breeds by that age. What some don't seem to get is that I am talking about the breed as a whole---not just an individual dog here or there, or someone's pet of unknown origin. Of course there are always exceptions to every statement. And the way my luck goes, as soon as I make a statement, someone will pop up with an exception.
With Dobes it is often considered a miracle if one makes it to age 8! And before the exceptions start to pop up, I will go first---my male lived to 13 years of age!

 

[Chynabell]

A pet owner has no way of having had contact with hundreds of the dogs over many decades. Nor the chance for long term observation.

While I haven't had the opportunity to own hundreds of German Shepherds, I most definitely have had contact with that many and with hundreds of more owners. On a German Shepherd board, with a membership of thousands, we have a handful of cases that have dysplasia. I know several breeders of German Shepherds, who have been breeding for years, and I'm sorry, but they would all laugh at your allegations. The assertion that the GSD is unable to stand without being in stack, is not only humorous, but completely false. There is not, to my knowledge, a GSD alive, standard or not, that is unable to stand unless in stack. The German Shepherd does have some problems, due to irresponsible breeding, issues such as dysplasia and weak temperaments that have been bred into the American line. Not saying that you can't get a good American bred GSD, but there are some things you have to look out for. Every GSD owner I know is absolutely in love with the breed, to say that GSDs are flakes, is the same as saying they can't stand unless in stack. Like all dogs, I'm sure there are some flaky GSDs out there, but rarely have I seen a breed of dog more driven and motivated. They live to work and for their families. They are intensely loyal and, when working, driven and determined. It is your perogative not to like German Shepherds, but they are a wonderful, wonderful dog, and if you're going to state your case against them, atleast do it with facts, instead of flinging out far-fetched notions like that they are so crippled that they have to stand funny or else they'll fall over. You may dislike the breed, but they are considered one of the most intelligent dogs alive, they have also been a top pick for police dogs, protection, and companionship for many years. I can't imagine a dog so crippled that they are barely able to stand, would have been as popular,

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Somehow I knew that your reply would state that my dog doesn't look like what the breed standard suggests. For your information, he is an imported German line dog, not an American show line. I am aware of why police agencies use German dogs- they are better than the American dogs by far. The desireable traits for a working GSD have been all but bred out of the American lines. They do not have the drive, temprament, or physical ability that the imports have, because the standard of breeding in Europe requires the dogs to be able to work, not just trot around the ring looking pretty.

When you talk about the GSD being flakey, that is purely the result of breeding for a single purpose and not taking into consideration all of the things the GSD was originally bred for. Any breed of dog that is continually being bred for color, angulation, and trotting ability while ignoring other important things such as temprament is going to have problems.

You keep referring to these champion dogs that couldn't walk by the time they were 8, and that is the result of not holding the dog to the original German standards, which require that temprament testing, obedience, protection, tracking, physical stamina, and hip and health certifications be attained prior to breeding. Few American GSDs could pass those tests including most of the ones that you are basing your opinion on.

I bow before your experience. I'm impressed that as a doberman person, you know so much about the GSD and all these other breeds you comment on. I suppose that you also have had 40 years of 1st hand experience with the GSD, so much experience that you can make comments like you have been making? The only thing of value that you have shown me is that you do not understand the GSD and appear to have a very biased attitude towards the breed.

By golly, you DO know Shepherds! I bow to your having done research and knowing what you are all about. No, I am not biased against Shepherds beyond their size, the fact that they have hair, and that they have TAILS!

And of course, my only experience has been with the American GSDs. I have known some very well trained dogs who were able to do what a Shepherd should be able to do......but that was like 30 years ago. And according to what I re-read in the breed standard, the deformed things walking around the streets of America are not to the standard either. The breed standard says a level topline. Slightly sloping croup. It is amazing that according to some people, the croup starts right behind the neck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you see, we do NOT disagree.....we actually do agree. American Shepherds are deformed and often unpredictable temperament wise! And in another post around here somewhere I mentioned the fact that in many breeds breeders are having to bring in European dogs to refresh their gene pools!

However I question letting any dog over 40 pounds do a whole lot of jumping unless that dog is on a good stiff dose of vitamin C every day of its life. (C=collagen builder=muscle/tendon builder.) Do search on vitamin C, and Dr. Linus Pauling. 500 mgs twice a day would not be too much for a Shepherd, and of course every person should have some daily too. And no--the amount of C that dogs synthesize is only about 50 mgs a day. Not enough.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

While I haven't had the opportunity to own hundreds of German Shepherds, I most definitely have had contact with that many and with hundreds of more owners. On a German Shepherd board, with a membership of thousands, we have a handful of cases that have dysplasia. I know several breeders of German Shepherds, who have been breeding for years, and I'm sorry, but they would all laugh at your allegations. The assertion that the GSD is unable to stand without being in stack, is not only humorous, but completely false. There is not, to my knowledge, a GSD alive, standard or not, that is unable to stand unless in stack. The German Shepherd does have some problems, due to irresponsible breeding, issues such as dysplasia and weak temperaments that have been bred into the American line. Not saying that you can't get a good American bred GSD, but there are some things you have to look out for. Every GSD owner I know is absolutely in love with the breed, to say that GSDs are flakes, is the same as saying they can't stand unless in stack. Like all dogs, I'm sure there are some flaky GSDs out there, but rarely have I seen a breed of dog more driven and motivated. They live to work and for their families. They are intensely loyal and, when working, driven and determined. It is your perogative not to like German Shepherds, but they are a wonderful, wonderful dog, and if you're going to state your case against them, atleast do it with facts, instead of flinging out far-fetched notions like that they are so crippled that they have to stand funny or else they'll fall over. You may dislike the breed, but they are considered one of the most intelligent dogs alive, they have also been a top pick for police dogs, protection, and companionship for many years. I can't imagine a dog so crippled that they are barely able to stand, would have been as popular,

Just ONE question.......why is the GSD the ONLY BREED that is stacked with one hind leg holding it up?? Hhhhmmmmmm???? First 3 guesses are free, . Now my guess is that as the backs got longer and more deformed over time, that leg had to be there to hold the dog up because the back had become too weak to do so. And did I miss a breed? Is there another dog that is stacked like the Shepherd????? Gee, not even the Belgian breeds are stacked like that!

And yeah, Shepherds are driven. So driven that when they get an attitude toward their owner or maybe the mailman, they won't quit trying to eat that person up. You should see some of the sorry animals being shown these days. I saw one a few years back that had hind legs like wet spaghetti! Literally. The dog was wobbling all over the place as tho it were just waking from anesthesia! I do not know why the stupid judge did not excuse the dog from the ring. Really ticked me off.

I was spoiled by Dobermans. I have not met a Shepherd that could hold a candle to a Dobe temperament or personality wise. Just my personal opinion of course. Thank goodness the breed has thousands who love it. I just personally would not want one of the hairy beasts. Too big for one thing.

 

[Chynabell]

This entire thread is bordering on the point of being amusing. You're right, they need the leg there to support them. All the running, jumping and police work they do is merely a facade, fabricated to untruthfully portray German Shepherds, because we know a dog so crippled that they need to extend their leg under them for support merely to stand would be completely incapable of doing agility and all the other sports the GSD excels at. It must be a mere figment of my imagination when I see my GSD and all his GSD friends standing four-square, the very picture of health and agility. You caught us, you've managed to unearth the world-wide conspiracty.

I have not met a Shepherd that could hold a candle to a Dobe temperament or personality wise.

Funny, I feel the same way about Dobes, although I will have the decency not to throw out a bunch of nonsense and generalizations in an effort to discredit them.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Why would you not use a dog rated good or fair, GW?

These are normal ratings.

Personally, I'd rather have a dog graded fair in the hips who had all fair littermates than an excellent who has dysplastic littermates.

I think OFA does us a real disservice by not making hips PASS OR FAIL just like elbows.

The BVA number scoring system is also very good.

Hips do not seem to be a big issue in Rottweilers these days. Elbows, however, are a different story.

I have a disadvantage. I am a Virgo, with true Virgo temperament. Anything less than perfect is not good enough, I cannot settle for second or third best! That is why I am now retired from breeding...have been for a while now. Much less heartache that way.

 

[DanL]

With Dobes it is often considered a miracle if one makes it to age 8! And before the exceptions start to pop up, I will go first---my male lived to 13 years of age!

Some friends of ours had a dobie they bought at a pet store of all places. He was somewhere around 12-13 when they finally had to put him down because of arthritis. He lived a fairly long and very healthy life and was a fine pet.

 

[DanL]

Just ONE question.......why is the GSD the ONLY BREED that is stacked with one hind leg holding it up?? Hhhhmmmmmm???? First 3 guesses are free, . Now my guess is that as the backs got longer and more deformed over time, that leg had to be there to hold the dog up because the back had become too weak to do so. And did I miss a breed? Is there another dog that is stacked like the Shepherd????? Gee, not even the Belgian breeds are stacked like that!

And yeah, Shepherds are driven. So driven that when they get an attitude toward their owner or maybe the mailman, they won't quit trying to eat that person up. You should see some of the sorry animals being shown these days. I saw one a few years back that had hind legs like wet spaghetti! Literally. The dog was wobbling all over the place as tho it were just waking from anesthesia! I do not know why the stupid judge did not excuse the dog from the ring. Really ticked me off.

I was spoiled by Dobermans. I have not met a Shepherd that could hold a candle to a Dobe temperament or personality wise. Just my personal opinion of course. Thank goodness the breed has thousands who love it. I just personally would not want one of the hairy beasts. Too big for one thing.

I think the reason they are stacked this way is that people think the dog looks good like that. Alert and ready to go, and nothing more than that. But the AKC show dogs are usually in a much more exaggerated stance. If you look at the difference between AKC and Sieger show dogs, the Siegers will do a free stack, where the AKC dogs are placed in the exaggerated stack to emphasize the angulated back line.

There is a huge difference between a driven dog and a dog with a bad temprament. A dog that turns on it's handler or bites the mailman probably has a combination of 2 things- poor breeding leading to a weak temprament and fear biting, and poor training to fix the problems a weak temprament will cause. I'm not going to argue about the American show dog- we already talked about that and I agree with you on many points. That type of dog does not represent what the GSD breed is truely about.

I have no problem with dobies. I've met many nice ones in my time, but I'm sure there are those who suffer from the same problems the GSD suffers from, when dogs that are not stable in temprament or health are bred because of how they look, you will get dogs with issues.

 

[corsomom]

My Mothers dobe was 12 when she had to be put to sleep last summer.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

My Mothers dobe was 12 when she had to be put to sleep last summer.

I know your mom misses her. No matter how old they are when they die it is always too soon.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

I think the reason they are stacked this way is that people think the dog looks good like that. Alert and ready to go, and nothing more than that. But the AKC show dogs are usually in a much more exaggerated stance. If you look at the difference between AKC and Sieger show dogs, the Siegers will do a free stack, where the AKC dogs are placed in the exaggerated stack to emphasize the angulated back line.

There is a huge difference between a driven dog and a dog with a bad temprament. A dog that turns on it's handler or bites the mailman probably has a combination of 2 things- poor breeding leading to a weak temprament and fear biting, and poor training to fix the problems a weak temprament will cause. I'm not going to argue about the American show dog- we already talked about that and I agree with you on many points. That type of dog does not represent what the GSD breed is truely about.

I have no problem with dobies. I've met many nice ones in my time, but I'm sure there are those who suffer from the same problems the GSD suffers from, when dogs that are not stable in temprament or health are bred because of how they look, you will get dogs with issues.

It seems that the American Shepherds are in fact deformed. They are not supposed to have that crouching hind end and that steep slope of the back! According to the standard the top line is supposed to be level---same as in the Dobe. What is referred to as a "table top" topline. The American Shepherds are much longer than the standard calls for. 10 to 8 1/2 is much closer to square than the GSDs you see crawling around the showgrounds. And they gait like sneaking coyotes, or maybe even rats slinking around! You are essentially agreeing with what I have said. As far as temperament, the show bred GSDs are either fracks or too sharp. The BYB Shepherds often are fear biters or overly aggressive.

They just aren't "my cup of tea" but even so, I hate to see how the breed has been ruined over the last 15-20 years. And the reason for the stack is pure and simply to hold up the middle of the dog. If it were to connote speed and readiness, then Greyhounds, Borzoi and Saluki would all be stacked that way, lol. Or the Belgian, or the Teruven (sp) or the Malinois! They are just as speedy and ready for action. But you are right, a Shepherd looks much better with that leg under there holding it up rather than having a big cave in halfway down its topline!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

This entire thread is bordering on the point of being amusing. You're right, they need the leg there to support them. All the running, jumping and police work they do is merely a facade, fabricated to untruthfully portray German Shepherds, because we know a dog so crippled that they need to extend their leg under them for support merely to stand would be completely incapable of doing agility and all the other sports the GSD excels at. It must be a mere figment of my imagination when I see my GSD and all his GSD friends standing four-square, the very picture of health and agility. You caught us, you've managed to unearth the world-wide conspiracty.



Funny, I feel the same way about Dobes, although I will have the decency not to throw out a bunch of nonsense and generalizations in an effort to discredit them.

Good gracious......you are finally beginning to perceive that I am being somewhat facetious in some of what I say? Congrats!!! However, most of the dogs I have seen doing police work or agility have mostly German lines in them---not American show lines. In fact the majority of police depts will only use German lines for working.

Now, just what IS the excuse for the right hind leg used to hold up the middle of the topline??????

 

[Chynabell]

Good gracious......you are finally beginning to perceive that I am being somewhat facetious in some of what I say? Congrats!!! However, most of the dogs I have seen doing police work or agility have mostly German lines in them---not American show lines. In fact the majority of police depts will only use German lines for working.

Now, just what IS the excuse for the right hind leg used to hold up the middle of the topline??????

You are correct in that police depts, not to mention those doing schutzhund and people interested in GSDs with correct drive, go with German lines. We have already discussed the damage that has been done to the American showlines by breeding for the look, instead of the whole package of what a GSD should be. However, this in no way encompasses the breed as a whole, and ALL GSDs are stacked the same. GSDs have to be taught to stack, it is a pose, used to best show the dog. They do not stand in stack because they have to to remain standing. It takes time and effort to teach the stack to the dog, and I can guarantee you that in the meantime, our dogs aren't walking around with the middle of their backs caved in. I have seen a few overangulated American Showline GSDs, but much of the time, the overangulation is more the fault of a bad stack, and if seen standing normally, the dog in question is not overly angulated.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

You are correct in that police depts, not to mention those doing schutzhund and people interested in GSDs with correct drive, go with German lines. We have already discussed the damage that has been done to the American showlines by breeding for the look, instead of the whole package of what a GSD should be. However, this in no way encompasses the breed as a whole, and ALL GSDs are stacked the same. GSDs have to be taught to stack, it is a pose, used to best show the dog. They do not stand in stack because they have to to remain standing. It takes time and effort to teach the stack to the dog, and I can guarantee you that in the meantime, our dogs aren't walking around with the middle of their backs caved in. I have seen a few overangulated American Showline GSDs, but much of the time, the overangulation is more the fault of a bad stack, and if seen standing normally, the dog in question is not overly angulated.

But how to reconcile the level topline with just a slope of the croup, with the "very low in the rear" toplines seen on almost every Shepherd one sees? Some have almost a 45 degree angle slope from shoulders to ground. Just WHAT does level topline mean in this case?

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Gwinnywillow -

I'm not sure if you understand how you come across in your messages here. By generalizing a breed and using terms like "all" and "most" and "majority of", you are making false statements that can't be substantiated. And you later say you were being facetitious as an excuse.

This would be like me saying "all doberman owners are sadists because they have to cut their dogs up to make them look like they want".

Personally I don't understand why doberman people have to crop ears and tails - it's surely no longer for work reasons as I would guess that most dobermans aren't working dogs. So it's for fad, for a preference of look - much like stacking a German shepherd with one leg under them is a preference of look. It's not a necessity, but it's the style that is used.

For you to equate that with the dog being "crippled" is just completely ludicrous.

Oh - and as far as the chows go, they don't roll. Some have a lot of fur that bounces, but the gait itself does not produce a rolling action.

I'll be sure to tell my almost ten year old shepherd who is currently working in open obedience (woah, this crippled dog has to JUMP .. and she has agility titles too!) and my chows (one of which has five obedience titles, four agility titles and a schutzhund BH) that they don't move correctly because some dobie person said they were supposed to roll.

Barb and DanL - nice looking dogs!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... and my flakey shepherd will be helping out at the Boys and Girls Club next week .. such a BAD temperament.

 

[RD]

But how to reconcile the level topline with just a slope of the croup, with the "very low in the rear" toplines seen on almost every Shepherd one sees? Some have almost a 45 degree angle slope from shoulders to ground. Just WHAT does level topline mean in this case?

I always imagined level to mean straight. Not necessarily the tabletop kind of level, but a straight and firm topline.

IMO, the only thing that slopes very dramatically in the GSD is the croup. The back itself is close to parallel with the ground when the dog is standing normally. I'm of the belief that it is the stack that tends to give it that dramatic slope. I've stacked a GSD with both hocks perpendicular to the ground, and the dog didn't cave in. His back did sway a bit, but not enough to throw him off his balance or to look deformed. His back wasn't completely parallel to the ground like a Doberman's is, it retained a tiny bit of slope but it wasn't extreme.

I'm continuing to learn from this thread! Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Oh. Gwinny: Are you by chance a judge, or an exhibitor?

 

[Gwinnywillow]

I always imagined level to mean straight. Not necessarily the tabletop kind of level, but a straight and firm topline.

IMO, the only thing that slopes very dramatically in the GSD is the croup. The back itself is close to parallel with the ground when the dog is standing normally. I'm of the belief that it is the stack that tends to give it that dramatic slope. I've stacked a GSD with both hocks perpendicular to the ground, and the dog didn't cave in. His back did sway a bit, but not enough to throw him off his balance or to look deformed. His back wasn't completely parallel to the ground like a Doberman's is, it retained a tiny bit of slope but it wasn't extreme.

I'm continuing to learn from this thread! Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Oh. Gwinny: Are you by chance a judge, or an exhibitor?

I am not a licensed judge. Just have a fair eye for a dog, and have studied several breeds fairly closely over the years.....just as a hobby, and to learn what I could, and to "train my eye". I played with exhibiting, but not seriously. Mostly for the chance to see old friends who were only in the area twice a year for the shows here. I accomplished the most as a breeder. But the success there was due to those who had bred dogs of great quality that resulted in the pooches I started out with.

Now I am just a maid, chauffeur, chef, and heated bed for my dogs, lol. Not that they are spoiled or anything

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinnywillow -

I'm not sure if you understand how you come across in your messages here. By generalizing a breed and using terms like "all" and "most" and "majority of", you are making false statements that can't be substantiated. And you later say you were being facetitious as an excuse.

This would be like me saying "all doberman owners are sadists because they have to cut their dogs up to make them look like they want".

Personally I don't understand why doberman people have to crop ears and tails - it's surely no longer for work reasons as I would guess that most dobermans aren't working dogs. So it's for fad, for a preference of look - much like stacking a German shepherd with one leg under them is a preference of look. It's not a necessity, but it's the style that is used.

For you to equate that with the dog being "crippled" is just completely ludicrous.

Oh - and as far as the chows go, they don't roll. Some have a lot of fur that bounces, but the gait itself does not produce a rolling action.

I'll be sure to tell my almost ten year old shepherd who is currently working in open obedience (woah, this crippled dog has to JUMP .. and she has agility titles too!) and my chows (one of which has five obedience titles, four agility titles and a schutzhund BH) that they don't move correctly because some dobie person said they were supposed to roll.

Barb and DanL - nice looking dogs!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... and my flakey shepherd will be helping out at the Boys and Girls Club next week .. such a BAD temperament.

The "all" and "most" that I refer to are dogs that I have seen, heard of and been told of over a period of about 3 decades. Now I realize that being the owner of a dog or two might make you an expert as to the general over all state of an entire breed. If so, more power to you.

And I can assume that your Chows have absolutely perfect angulation etc, so that there movement is absolutely correct according to the standard? To some of us folks, stilted and rolling are pretty bloody close. Except that most CHows don't labor to move like perhaps a Bulldog (English variety) but a Chow with great bone and substance will have a tendency to put a little roll into his gait. Now......true, what to me looks like a roll might not look at all like it to another. We are quibbling semantics here.

Too bad no one will ever know the percentage of Shepherds walking around with dysplasia. Would be interesting.

And I completely agree with you about cropping and docking because I can understand a non Dobe owners revulsion at the perceived cruelty. However having observed cropping and docking from the dog's perspective I know for a fact that cropping does not hurt. Cartiledge does not have nerve endings. In point of fact, the greatest discomfort shown by pups has been the weird sensation of air blowing across their upright ears!

Unlike others on many forums, I am of the opinion that folks are entitled to their convictions and opinons, and this being the U.S. of A. they are also free to express them. If a person thinks Dobes look ridiculous, and that Dobe owners are all sadists, then so be it. If they are of the opinion that Dobes as a breed have been ruined for whatever reason, then who am I to denegrate them because of their opinion?

And I am also careful to try to comprehend what someone is trying to say.......like for instance someone who is saying that a certain breed of dog has been ruined by breeding for the wrong "fad appearances" I would not jump in and accuse them of hating the breed---especially if what they are saying is spot on the point!

Now, if you like your pets, great. I wish them and you excellent health, long life and joy! And a steady supply of treats!

And what the breeders have done to the Dobermans in the last 25 years is also very sad. CVI, cardio, vWD, and heaven only knows what else in the last 8 years since I have been non-involved with the breed. So GSDs aren't the only ones who are messed up.

And I must admit that the intensity of my feeling about GSDs is no where near what some seem to think. In fact, years go by without the thought of a German Shepherd even entering my thoughts at all!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

You say: "The "all" and "most" that I refer to are dogs that I have seen, heard of and been told of over a period of about 3 decades. Now I realize that being the owner of a dog or two might make you an expert as to the general over all state of an entire breed. If so, more power to you."

You know, I find it completely hypocritical of you to be so definitively harsh on a breed that you have "seen, heard and been told of" regardless of the amount of time. Your bit of experience with the German shepherd breed does not make you an expert, and yet you attempt to belittle my knowledge even though you don't really know my level of expertise. The shepherd I spoke of has not been my only shepherd, nor is she the only one I've "seen, heard of and been told of". My experience in training professionally spans a good length of time.

You make statements in this thread that are so contradictory that it's hard to believe what you say much of the time. You state that the GSD is overdone and crippled. You say things like the following: "Shepherds backs are too long, their hips are too messed up, and unless they stand with one hind foot supporting the middle, they would sag. They are deformed. I don't know how many hundreds of Shepherds you have been exposed to, but the facts are the facts." This is a generalization to the extreme! It's not a fact of the BREED overall, but you make it seem that way. And then when someone calls you on it, you back up and say you were just talking about the American shepherds (do you not realize that they're all called German shepherd?). Maybe you've spent too much time in the conformation show ring and not enough time looking around the real world to see how many nice shepherds there are.

I've met more than one doberman that wasn't mentally sound - should I then take a page from your book and assume that the breed overall isn't mentally sound? Of course not. That would be silly.

Other contradictory statements were about the chows. You said that they had a rolling gait due to a straight front, and when corrected you changed it to a straight shoulder, and then when faced with the actual breed standard you said "upright shoulder". You change your words so frequently - could that possibly be because you don't really know what you're talking about? *L*

You said: "And I can assume that your Chows have absolutely perfect angulation etc, so that there movement is absolutely correct according to the standard? <snip> ...but a Chow with great bone and substance will have a tendency to put a little roll into his gait. "

I just love the way you put little digs into your comment. I say my chows don't roll, you make statements that suggest they don't have correct movement, bone and substance. When you can't back up your statements with fact, you throw in insult. The truth of it is that my chows have the proper angulation and have the characteristic "stilted" gait. Two of them are pointed in conformation as well as working in performance events. I don't believe this is a matter of semantics. As far as I can tell, you don't really have a clue as to what the proper gait is in a chow. STILTED is not ROLLING by any stretch of the imagination.

You said: "However having observed cropping and docking from the dog's perspective I know for a fact that cropping does not hurt. Cartiledge does not have nerve endings. In point of fact, the greatest discomfort shown by pups has been the weird sensation of air blowing across their upright ears!"

How in the world can you know ANYTHING truly from the "dog's perspective"? Are you now telling us that you're psychic?? I worked as a vet tech for many years and I am pretty darn sure that the reactions I saw in dogs that came in to have ears treated that had been cropped was NOT pleasure. You can't cut out portions of flesh without pain at some point. I can't tell you how intense the pain may be, but I'm pretty sure there's some there. Of course, I'm not a dog psychic so I can't say for certain, but whimpering, crying out and pulling away generally indicates a level of discomfort. There's a reason that the practice is banned in some areas.

By your logic, we should be able to dig our fingernails into our dog's ears (flap or cartilege area) and have no reaction of pain because there are no nerve endings. Or you could probably try that on yourself. Let me know how it feels.

I'm not saying whether cropping or docking is right or wrong - but I do disagree with your statement that the dogs don't feel any pain from it. Even 3-4 day old puppies cry when their tails are docked. I helped with hundreds over the years.

You said: "Unlike others on many forums, I am of the opinion that folks are entitled to their convictions and opinons, and this being the U.S. of A. they are also free to express them. "

Of course, this forum DOES welcome people from across the world, I believe. But I won't argue this overall. I'm as free to express my opinions as you are. I just try not to generalize all of one breed. I would hate to look that ignorant.



Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Serena]

Now, just what IS the excuse for the right hind leg used to hold up the middle of the topline??????

There are two reasons the GSD is stacked different than other breeds..

First: As DanL mentioned it is to denote a sense of readiness, GSD's are working dogs, they should look like they are ready to "spring into action"..

Second: The stack is designed to show off their angulation and topline.

The "all" and "most" that I refer to are dogs that I have seen, heard of and been told of over a period of about 3 decades.

Seeing, hearing, and being told about is a lot different than living with these animals daily, it's a lot different than being seriously involved in the breed.

I see, hear, and am told about various breeds everyday..and if I believed half of what I heard I would have a very narrow minded view on some wonderful breeds...

Now I realize that being the owner of a dog or two might make you an expert as to the general over all state of an entire breed. If so, more power to you.

You are presuming that just because someone has a dog or two that is where their experience ends...

But lets play that card...Currently I am the owner of two GSDs (both rescues).

I have trained GSD's in tracking, obedience, herding, agility. SchH training is my next step..

I am involved in breed rescue and I foster when time allows.

Prior to my current GSD's coming into my life I was owned by one other and that was years before when I was a small child, after she passed on it was years before I wanted another dog...

As time passed and I was ready for another dog I kept coming back to the GSD and I knew that was the breed for me...In preparation I talked to everyone I could and became involved in the breed so I could be ready for the day that I could again have a GSD in my life.

After making the decision that I again wanted a GSD, it was again years before I actually had one...

It was years that I spent learning about the breed exclusively. Some people in the breed met me with open arms and were eager and enthusiastic to talk to me about the breed and teach..others waited until I proved myself worthy of the breed and took longer to warm up...once they knew that I was serious about the breed, they became some of my best teachers in the breed..

I was given the honor in assisting with training and eventually training on my own some wonderful GSD's owned by some people in the breed that today I am proud to call not only mentors but friends..

I got involved in breed rescue and it was through my involvement in rescue that I ended up with my two current GSD's...

It was a difficult road and I worked my butt off to get where I am, its a road that I started nearly ten years ago..a road that I am still walking and learning on today..the knowledge never ceases...its a road that not I would not trade a second of because it made me a better dog owner, it made me worthy of this breed, and it was on this road that I found my passion for training..

So when you say that those of us who only have a dog or two and imply that we have no real knowledge in the breed you are discounting how we got to that point..some of us worked hard to get there, some of us spent years in the breed exclusively before we brought them into our lives..

What is your personal experience in the breed exclusively? What makes you qualified to bash the breed as you have?

Those of us who know and love the breed will be the first to point out the flaws the breed has, and it is because we know and love them that we do this...For someone with no real experience on the breed to judge them and bash them so harshly is highly ignorant.

Too bad no one will ever know the percentage of Shepherds walking around with dysplasia. Would be interesting.

And no one will truly know the percentage of Dobes, Labs, Goldens, Dals, ect..with dysplasia...In every breed there will be individuals who avoid and falsify test results..