Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Izzy's Valkyrie, Sep 3, 2009.
I figure a load of shot will pretty much obscure the dog mauling
I'm not debating which is better. I really dont care, a bite is a bite. It will either stop the threat or **** the threat off till they kill the dog.
But PM came here saying GSD's are not naturally protective, that they will only nip from behind and cower once faced with a threat and have to be trained. Like I said you cannot train what is not there!!! Training gives your dogs the tools to deal with their protective instincts and gives you control over that.
Most PP people feel molossers are horrible protection dogs. I am NOT one of them. Its all in what you want and can handle. I am not trying to take anything away from the LGD's, so please dont to my breed.
I meant if the person was allowed to run away. Then come up with a story that will put my dogs life on the line (it doesnt take much to sue these days). It would only be my word against his/her, no proof. I dont care if my dog bites the threat but if he does, he better not let them get away. Once the initial bite happens I feel I would have no choice but to kill them or hold them until the police show up and can document every piece of evidence proving my dog is not vicious and is very controlled.
Excuse me when did i say coward??????? pls dont put words in my mouth,
THe prey herding drive was is in the breed it is not natural defense.
However anyone who really knows dogs would tell you all dogs have self preservation some more than others.
And a GSD if faced with a threat can go into self preservation does not make every GSD coming from every litter AUTO protection DOGS.
They require training.
PS being a breeder I can also tell u not all my CAS make it as LGDS , a few are only watch dogs, most are guard dogs and a handfull can do odd things like show tdi.
With this said I am not going to bother to read the other page.
you are taking this personally and not as a objectivity in relations t dogs
PS when I get a call for serious guard dogs needed. I dont even sell them a dog I send them to a PP trainer to get a 5 grand trained GSD .
If they dont have that kind of money or time to raise a pup and train it I send them to FILA or CO in cold weather. I DO NOT SELL THEM A CAS.
Unlike you are am not under the illusion I own Lassie who lives no matter the odds.
2 guarentees in life dying and taxes GSD or CAS protectiion is NOT one of them.
Breeding is not a FOR SURE thing. Not for GSD or CAS or gods gift to dogs.
You play the odds which is why the good breeder tries to improve the odds by working the dogs , temperament testing the HELL out of them, health testing and not matching high ADR to high ADR or low for that matter . Breeding to the standard inc temperament.
So they get a range of temps and match homes with pups vs sell.
With all this whats great about dogs is so many to choose from.
I have been lucky to work test show own and meet many and that is how i form my opinions.
My quest of knowledge thank bloody god goes beyond net chats.
History of the Mastiff by wynn and the original GSD book are good items to add to any collection plus Mammallia by Jardine.
Renee when i started out in security we were trained to detain after the theft occured. THis resulted in me being shot knifed etc . lAter we learned how to reduce and or PREVENT theft by use of patrol dogs, some times signs saying dog present, cages for high ticket items etc . Called Loss prevention.
LGDS in most cases are deterrant based on sheer size and built reducing loss;s based
Plus lack of prey drive in males makes them manageable not high energy dogs.
In many cases the predators be it human or bear seek a easier target.
Personally with my background I still do nOT want to come home to my dog holding someone in my house the variables is too high. I want the dog to stop them from coming in.
Now if it fila with soft mouth and has HOLD of the person It would make me feel a bit better. And R i can tell u if i go back to U.c work I want a Karma pup. The hesitation a LGD CAS does BEFORE protecting could cost me my life . Cause in the city I dont need a warning someone coming up on me on the job that fast needs natural defense and sorry no better than Fila.
Im sorry, But I have to Laugh.. A GSD, not naturally Defensive or protective :rofl1:
There may be a few Oddballs Out there That Would just go over and lick the intruder. But the breed as a whole Is pretty dang protective.
If I ever ended up living alone in a big city (I plan to end up in a city some day) I would want a Kharma puppy. With a family in a more rural area, I'm responsible enough to know to aim for something less.... Fila lol.
We're looking into Aussies and hey, for all we know, we'll get a BC that will be a good watchdog too.
it wasn't directed at you. i was trying subtly to let PM know she may not be posting objectively. i too see SOME of what she wrote as derogatory toward the GSD as a whole & not objective.
Yep the GSD is the ultimate in everything. No real reason for anyone else to own or breed any other breed let alone a breeds that are OLDER then the GSD by thousands of years.
NO real need for the Protection trainers they are just born perfect.
I got a bridge I need to sell bbl.
That's pretty much not true. The majority of the average GSD's you see out today are either from Am. show lines and would **** in the corner rather than face a threat. The German show lines aren't much better in terms of workable drives. If you want a dog that's going to be naturally protective, you need to look at European dogs. You need to make sure the dogs your getting your dog from are protective without the training. If they're only protective because they've been trained that way, well, then you just bought a nice looking dog that may or may not protect you. If you're willing to put the work in into making the dog into a PP dog then you've got the liability of having a dog that's been trained to bite and all that entails.
Many many many of the GSD's I've met are either nerve bags who wont work without being in defense, which is really dangerous in of itself. Or dogs who just thought it was a grand old game. And wouldn't really defend if the situation came down to it. There's no sleeve, whats the dog going to bite?
To really get a good dog, you have to have a dog who sees it as more than a game. They don't want the sleeve, they want the man behind the sleeve and they could care less about whether he's wearing it or not.
Most GSD's deter people by just looking intimidating. If that's what you want, that's cool. But being naturally defensive/protective? Not many are like that anymore. You have to bring those drives out through working the dog proactively.
Fortunately, I don't see much chance of that happening here I saw Kharma disarm someone when she was just over 7 months old. She wasn't letting him go until I convinced her it was okay, lol. And then there was Bimmer, ready behind him, waiting to see if she needed any help. The only reason he wasn't in on it was because he was in direct eye contact with me and had seen me motion him off and heard me yell. Kharma was still pup enough to be impetuous, and ordinarily it would have been a good call -- big guy with a 3' steel rod, me by myself at the farm. As it was, he was there to pick up a tractor that needed repair and the bar was part of the comealong to get it up on the trailer, lol. I'd TOLD him to call me before he came out to get it . . . some people just don't listen -- at least not the first time you tell 'em something :rofl1:
She didn't hurt him, just made him drop the steel and hung onto him until I got her convinced to let go. She's grown up a lot since then and has much better judgment, but it was neat to see her instincts kick in like that. Kinda funny to hear a big guy like that scream like a little girl
No, a Fila is NOT a dog for most people. They aren't watch dogs as most think of watch dogs as far as barking to let you know they've seen something. A real Fila won't hesitate or bark to work up their courage and the only warning an intruder gets may be the growl just before impact. Often there won't be any barking, and if you have more than one, they'll work together, one staying between you and the threat and the other flanking to come in from the rear. They don't fool around and they're devious as Hell. You have to be if you hunt jaguar.
The GSDs I've had have been good guard dogs, but they've had sharper tempers than most or have been mixes. Bear, the GSD/Akita, may have been the most effective. The best watch dog ever was O'Riley, the blind Aussie. He was also as quick as any of the GSDs -- quicker than most GSDs I've met, actually -- to be ready to engage a perceived threat that didn't retreat fast enough to suit him, and yet I could take him out on a leash and he was perfection in public.
Just wanted to point out that Border Collies are not bred/meant to be a gaurding dog. They were originally bred to work with humans. Gaurding was left to the LGDs.
You said herding breeds will nip from behind. Implying a nip is a weak attempt to scare the threat off, and from behind means they have no confidence, thus will cower.
I know how easily a dog can get killed, so I dont know what you mean by "my dog lives no matter what", which is why I said I dont even want my dog to come in contact with a bad guy. Anyone with slight determination can kill your dog.
Self preservation is a form of protection. If they loose their pack they die. So they must fight from a defensive standpoint. Which any dog with protective instincts would do. Now PP training only makes your dog think he's the biggest badest monster in the world and can take on anything. Then the mentality of protection switches from a defensive standpoint (my pack is being threatened, thus my life will be over) to a fighting position where the dog isnt working out of fear or self preservation but is just fighting. The dog then knows NOTHING can harm him so is fighting just to fight and win. The dog feels invincible.
See, that's why I want a Kharma if I ever live alone. I'd probably want to live at Renee's for the first year of having the pup but then I'd be good to go lol.
If you have a Fila you are never alone
RE quoted from my previous post
I JUST said that GSD's are very rarely the best at anything they do. There will always be a breed that specializes in a specific job and will blow the GSD out of the water. They are however one of the most well rounded working dogs, being able to complete almost any working task. Again probably wont do the best compared to breeds that are solely bred.
It seems you are taking it personally, even when I have not said ONE thing that takes away anything from your breed. Just defending my own. Not once did I question your breeds abilities.
Thanks for the clarification Pops.
It was not my intend to discredit any breed, and I havent that I'm aware of. I just think its comical to say GSD's arent naturally protective. I cant wrap my head around the fact that they are only taught to be protective, but like I said you cant teach what isnt there. Just like you cant train in drive, the dog either has it or it doesnt. Bringing their natural insticnts out TOTALLY, but to train it INTO them, IMPOSSIBLE.
I wasn't saying that all GSD's are not naturally protective. I think that it's comical to say that they are though. The majority of GSD's walking around in the general population are not going to protect though. The majority of GSD's in America right now are Am. show line dogs and byb dogs that are GSD in looks and name only. You have to get into a different class of dog if you want one with brains.
To GSD you LIED and said I wrote they will "COWER?"
Once you LIE to elevate your position and to gain support proves you taking this personally.
PS Nipping from behind is how sheep are MOVED BY GOLLY since I own Sheep believe
you me I need a HERDER to do this job last weekend when my fence went down and my LGDS do jack about herding.
Now I personally have met a great number of TOP GSD . Because I go to PP clubs and wow dam nice dogs. CHeck out below another great one.
And if you could see the dogs that showed up with POffiicers for Owens funeral WOW.
But not many would be where i am and seeing great GSDS in this case Czeck imports.
Now working for north shore animal league , dog grooming most the GSD pure or mixed were nerve bags including my own RIP snoopy.
Over breeding in breeding GSD had taken them away from non angulated good bone defense dog of old/.
THe world dog show in mexico had hundreds of GSDS that look or act NOTHING like Rin Tin TIn.
Closest ive seen not a Police dog was a East Euro Shepherd Russian OLD Style GSD
to DIE for defesive nice bone solid not hyper nice head NO angulation of rear and moved like a dream.
One nice dog http://www.vomhausming.com/images/studdog_yak.gif
However saying anything then claiming any breed is darn near perfect is considered durogatory HELL Im guility as SIN one million times over.
PS you think someone would have allot of work with a breed before they make claims about CAS or LGDS vs making assumptions based on net chat. I would call that NON objective.
Ive had 4 GSD and one dobe k 9 partner.
IVe own 2 GSD mixes as Pets.
I rehabbed over 40 GSD s from north shore animal league.
Ive shown White sheps Shiloh sheps and long haired GSD
Ive cgc over 500 dogs about 30 GSD KINGS etc.
Ive groomed more dogs than I can list let alone GSD is common
i wait in line at PP clubs for all the GSD to be worked before i go
I hosted a PP trial.
ive busted pup millers and pet stores with GSD.
have more but tired
Now pls enligthen me how many CAS u have MET let alone worked? to make a Cough non objective opinion?
...then you are SOL because the dog cant deal with a frontal threat. Just finishing your sentence .
I dont know sh!t about CAS. Never said I did and never questioned your dogs willingness to protect. Unlike other people *wink*
Who do I need support from? I think its very clear I state my opinion whether the forum agrees or not.
When I say GSD's I mean a REAL one. One that holds true to standard. I guess I do have to remember there are many poorly bred ones, that most people will never see a good one. I guess I am fortunate to be surrounded by some awesome GSD's that I rarely remember those being bred with their behinds dragging or sh!t themselves at the sound of a gunshot. Luckily most people want a traditional "rin tin tin" look and cant handle much more than a low drive dog. American bred are not GSD's in my eyes, just look like them. Everything that makes a GSD (courage, strength, drive, power, biddability, solid nerve ect) a GSD is non existant in these dogs.
Yes, a good GSD is hard to come by but the good ones are amazing and DO have the courage and willingness to protect. The TRUE GSD. And if you research you can find the perfect dog for you.
I am a die hard working dog person and often forget the showlines and forget how much attention they steal away from the true GSD's left in the world. I get so caught up in my own world that I forget most people have never and will never see what a GSD once was and still is in the working lines.