Guardian breeds?

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#61
Assuming is just not a good idea.

Taking a sentence out of a paragraph thus out of content dont help.
That sentence did NOT pertain to the few GOOD lines of Working GSD.
It was intended as pet dogs bred not trained as PP dogs that naturally will chase .
But not all will defend without training. And even trained PP dogs can and will back off depending the pressure they put on the dog.

I have a fixed non breeding CAS I know will back down to pressure.
He wont be bred for that reason.

I love GSD and I miss them.
Not every dog I breed will BITE.
I have had harder time getting them less defensive than not .

If seems if you dont own a GSD you are not entitled to the SAME opinion a GSD owner has .

You made bold statements and generalizations about CAS LGDS that you have NO base of knowledge.

My comments of GSD is based on REAL work with them OFF line boards.
Take it or leave it ,
 

Jules

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#62
Is this the thread where I put in an application for a Kharma baby? If Dan gets out and we settle down with our own house... please send the littlest male to meeee! <3 :p
 
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#63
LOL my eyes are burning going over Fila pedigrees I am i line behind you.
I want the ultimate and I want a Fila but I need karma for a smooch first.
 

Zoom

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#64
I can't wait and I know these are going to be good d*mn Fila pups...which is good because it's apparently the last dog I can have for many years!
 
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#65
Assuming is just not a good idea.

Taking a sentence out of a paragraph thus out of content dont help.
That sentence did NOT pertain to the few GOOD lines of Working GSD.
It was intended as pet dogs bred not trained as PP dogs that naturally will chase .
But not all will defend without training. And even trained PP dogs can and will back off depending the pressure they put on the dog.

I have a fixed non breeding CAS I know will back down to pressure.
He wont be bred for that reason.

I love GSD and I miss them.
Not every dog I breed will BITE.
I have had harder time getting them less defensive than not .

If seems if you dont own a GSD you are not entitled to the SAME opinion a GSD owner has .

You made bold statements and generalizations about CAS LGDS that you have NO base of knowledge.

My comments of GSD is based on REAL work with them OFF line boards.
Take it or leave it ,
I never made any comments regarding the CAS. My comments where solely defending my breed, not belittling yours. I said before a bite is a bite, doesnt matter how its done, or where the bite is steming from. Doesnt matter if they have a full mouth grip in prey or defense, doesnt matter if they do a bark and hold or just go in for a bite. The job will get done (hopefully). Its all in what you want. But I DO have a ton of respect for LGD's, and am not so quick to refer everyone to them. They are breeds that need to be understood, and our society does not allow room for mistakes.

An intimidating dog who can put on a good show is all most people will ever need. And I think either dog (GSD or CAS) can do the job.

The only thing I am debating is the fact that you said GSD's arent naturally protective, and its trained into them. Still cant wrap my head around that. :confused:
 

Pops2

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#66
PM
you need to go take a nap or something. i went back & reread this whole thread & no one said the GSD is the ultimate anything (especially not me, i just finished that argument elsewhere). no one said anything derogatory of the CAS or LGDs (unless you count GSDlover's statements that they look like big teddy bears and that most american are too ignorant to take them seriously until it's too late, in that case they do & they are).
OTH you have gone out of your way to denigrate the GSD including posting an overbroad statement that could be considered willfully false. most working lines of GSD have been bred for a full bite, and various combinations of drives for AT LEAST the last 20 years if not twice that. i don't particularly care for the GSD do to some bad experiences but i am not breed/type blind enough to call them all crap (which is essentially what you did). i have enough respect for you & your passion for good working molossers that i tried to be subtle. you APPEAR to have taken the subtle the wrong way, so now i am being blunt. your side of the "debate" has been unnecessarily aggressive and blown way out of proportion. keep in mind i am a blunt A-hole on a lot of issues, so for me to see an overreaction in someone is just a bit weird.
anyway, I hope your feeling better soon and get back to your usual self.
 

Barb04

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#68
Know how much I love Kharma, I can't wait to see little Kharmas running around!
 

Jules

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#69
What? You mean you don't want a bitch? :rofl1:

Males are seriously easier from everything I've seen ;)
I do not think T-bone would be too pleased with another girl in the house... She thinks living with a human bitch is enough for her already :rofl1:
 

Zoom

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#71
^^Sounds about par for Aussies too. :p Sawyer has had to learn how to shut the door behind him because of his insistance of nosing the door back open before it latches and following me in.
 

DanL

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#72
I'm not going to get into the whole debate here, but the one point I have to make is a GSD that is a herder is not always a nip at the heels dog. When a big ram stares down the herding dog and challenges him, the GSD will confront him face to face. I've seen them take a full grip and shake the ram to get it moving in the direction it wants it to move. It's not all about running behind them and nipping at the heels. And I've seen plenty of GSDs that might run down someone and go for a bite, and if the person turns and confronts them, the GSD takes that as a challenge and gives the man all he can handle.

After a bite session my dog is approachable and will hang out and play ball and be pet by the same people he was biting 10 minutes earlier. There is no amping up needed to get him started, and no winding down period. On switch, off switch.

I'll also contest the shallow bite thing- I've seen 6 week old working line pups getting their very first bite on a leather scrap or rag, and have a deep full bite. That is genetic. The part you train is managing the drives and thresholds each individual dog has. None of the people I train with and none of the K9 cops I know want a defensive dog. Defense is fear, and you need a dog that is strong enough to look past that fear and engage in any situation. Close quarters, in the dark, in a house, in the woods, working with or away from the handler. Sadly not many GSD's can do that anymore but there are enough good ones out there that it's not a lost cause.
 
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#73
I'm
After a bite session my dog is approachable and will hang out and play ball and be pet by the same people he was biting 10 minutes earlier. There is no amping up needed to get him started, and no winding down period. On switch, off switch.
So can mine here is him being petted by bad guy after bite 1 min after sleeve work and stick is dropped down. He is also VERY social dog.
The sleeve shot was above
PS trainder did not like this he breeds imports Czeck dogs for Police and do not want to PET them after bite work. He wants the dogs bond to be with
officer not him and police dogs dont get petted by criminals after biting them.
He knew i wanted it due to fear full dogs portrayed n any guardian breed as correct when they are aggressive.


Does that make every dog in my breed like this? NO
It took allot of in socializing vs bite work to get this.
Allot of working thru fear periods from a working line to get them thru it as a stable dog. I tested CGC TDI TT and showed long before I tried this.
To insure the dog was mentally ready.

In most SCH training fields the dog is awarded the sleeve and leaves with it in the mouth and is crated up owner brings back sleeve for next dog.

Defensive dogs may just fear -i agree - fear some can take as duragortory.
Ever one every thing has fear. Difference is when I jump cause idiot jumped out of closet to boo me i react with a defense blow ..
Some people run or jump or yelp and then some will fight.
So having fear of he unknown can save a life or dog it is not always bad.

And police dogs dont want defensive cause of laws.
Not because a dog that protects naturally is bad.
WHy cause police are not allowed to defend themselves wth deadly force .
Too worried about suits and medias.
So a criminal charging you with weapons other than guns are supposed to be pepper sprayed and the dogs are used a last resort. A defensive dog does NOT need a command t know that the bag guy rushing his bud just has a stick not a knife and deadly force is not needed. He reads the situation and has to wait for a command which is why the are the best security dogs in the world , they will over ride fear of Fire to go thru a window on command. A defensive dog will use self preservation and say hell no u go thru the window on practice.

A top PP dog in canada 6 years a breed and owner nameless for now was raped in her hotel room by a friend. The dog did nothing , no command and no reading of the fear the woman had.
Another PP peson lost a few dogs in a theft in the car. Dogs were not defensive. Ive sold my dogs to people who BREED mals and trains them for protection but PUPS were Stolen from the mom in the kennels.
The CAS was put outside in the yard NO more pups were stolen.

Testing dogs dont always make them he best dogs it makes you a better owner trainer and or breeder.,

GSD are the best all round breed in the world.
No one will take their place as the #1 breed for PP trials, SCH Mondio, Police and mIlitary work and family dogs. Close sec Mal. for work vs family.

They are truely versatile and can dabble and compete in just about anything.
They are the masters of PP work as in competition and K9 partners.
I would KILL my CAS if I had to use it as a patrol dog UGH.

But thier are many breeds that are specialists in Livestock, territory protection that offer something too . That existed before most breeds we know and love were even created.





I have no pups for sale. Most know abot GSD right wrong or in different.
Opnions can vary but are not off the mark about most well known breeds that go into good homes before net was created.
However the CAS is new to modern world and often wrong or missleading info ir posted NOT This post or gives the illusions that defense is not good.
Every dog breed or yelp even designer dogs may find great homes.

PS due to Massive size in some cases NO one has every RUn to my dogs cause they dont know them and said Oh cute bear. They look down and get scared based on sheer size. Only exceptions are babies who run for a hug.

http://centralasianshepherd.homestead.com/1aligets2.jpg
This is a working TDI CGC TT Protection CHampion and she will show belly for all kids that approuch.
Here is her at 4 h kid wash
The dog grew up in 4 h the kids knew that No one runs up the the dog on public going for a hug. Some have the guts to ask if they can pet.
walking down 86st n brooklyn NYC we parted the red seas NOT one person ran to dog for a pet or hug.



Last I dont know Dans dog or the other 2 people.
It really is not about your dogs it was about breeds as a whole.
And GSD as a hole are simply not as good a the DOGS owned by some here that is all. IT IS not personal feels like im in a movie thou at times.
 
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#74
PM,

There is no need to defend your breed. I am fully aware that they are capable of guarding. Like I said my only issue is when you that it is trained INTO a GSD to protect.

Fear is not a bad thing, its what you do with it. Some choose to fight others choose to flight. I think the likely hood of a GSD choosing to flight from defense is higher than an LGD. I believe it is due to the lack of knowledge many have for LGD's, that people in the PP world feel they are horrible protection dogs. But I dont think they deal with fear as a GSD or a Mali would. I think their mentality would be "if I dont fight I'm going to die" vs a different type of dog thinking "I MIGHT live if I bail now and run". The LGD has no choice in its mind, whereas a GSD will debate between flight or fight. Which is why its important that a GSD has fight drive. Is that what you meant that they have to be trained? To bring out there fight drive and teach them they can take on the world?
 

dogsarebetter

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#76
I know for sure... 100% positive that Ruckus will bite, and try to mangle anyone who comes around. Ruckus is a sheltie, I am not sure how common it is in the breed, but he will bark to warn you, and also bite in a heart beat.

he is a big guy at 20 inches 43 lbs. Most shelties are 14-16 inches and 20-30 lbs. so I know that is smaller than you were wanting. I just wanted to share!
 
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#77
GSD lover truth is what your writing is not correct. Its ok most dont understand a LGD r a defense breed till they own a few.
Prey drive vs defense is very different and simply not able to understand until u see it in person

CAS and many LGDS ALL have self Preservation since they were created thousands of years ago BEFORE 95% of the breeds we know today were created by modern man.

Modern man selected a little of this dog and little of that. Mix mixed mixing and generations wa la they have a breed created by Mr Smith his idealisms of what the breed should be is refected in the standard.

NO man, created CAS CO Sar Akbash ASD Kangal. They evolved thru time with man on the side of man but not for man.

Thus self preservation is paramount. However they are territorial protection of flock family and home.

I can give a tough bitch to a good vet tech and she will get smooches. She hands the leash back to me and then comes up behind me with no voice and i dont say hi mary.
The same KISSY dog is now protecting me with NO training. She will get between me anything if I dont say it is ok with cues. warning posturing and if so grabbing and or biting.
depends on who what wear. Talking is all that is needed gestures.

Self preservation means if and i mean iF the bear is willing to leave they dont give chase to finish off the battle. If they are alone and the bad guy is tresspassing and not threatening they will follow the bad guy and NOT attack waiting for him her to do a bad thing, like grab stick me or a sheep.
But if it is protecting me or dying they DiE they do not self preserve when engaged.
and if they did not have self preservation they would of killed Panda after she gave up.
They won leave the battle without any damage is the goal as long as the intruder in this cases another dog gets loose and starts up a battle she cant win ALONE.

But they pick battles carefully they dont stay hyped ever it is incorrect for a LGD cause they could redirect on a sheep. They turn ON and oFF in a snap.

Lack of herding drive means they are Less apt to use teeth to MOVE things or grab.
They do NOT play tug of war no hang time, very few fetch, they are not trainable for HIGH ends of competition due to lack of prey drive.

A dog with Prey drive is more apt to nip NOT out of defense but movement.
Which is why PP trainers when working most dogs do the wiggle chase come get me to activate the PREY drive in herding breeds. Then they work them in defense and as well as fighting the man.

LGDS males have no prey drive, females have finishing prey drive another topic.

So yes GSD may say no bite and leave if bad guys stands grown or they are more likely o hold their ground in a bark and hold. NO bite just no move. IF the same person runs if they have any prey drive will chase and herd and nip.

A CAS if on territory will NOT tolerate a stranger there they will attempt to knock dog a bad guy and force him t leave, they will circle them in wide circles. and mock charge a neutral threat. But will do very little barking and NO holding when engaged and if the same person runs off the dog then says no reason to CHASE and herd or Nip or Bite the bad guy is gone... And that is self preservation.

During the ATTS protection section dog is at end of 6ft leash u have NO control .NO commands or leash corrections allowed.
Bad guy comes out my 1st male looks at him so far away and starts pissing on flags, guy hits 2nd mark still far away dog comes back to me and goes behind me to the left, now im like **** , then the guy hits the last mark too close yelling swinging stick, dog comes out so fast from left he misses the guys 2 things by inches cause he went beyond the point mark ASSSSSSUMING that a dog that did NOT lite up at first glance was going to cur.

As a soon at the guy backed off the dog was off pissing on more trees.
Rotties that passed same dog acted the same. The GSD however were energized is the only word I can use that I am hoping does not set off another he said she said.

CAS do not do longs sends they are protective only in their area or within a certain amount of feet from their owners. I had one take a 4th place in a tough dog competition he was in 2nd place. Till he was sent into building to search and find bad guy he did backed him in courner and LEFT the building cause the owner they PROTECT was not there. So no reason to bite hold or engage .
 
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#80
You know I kept it NON personal -I stated facts to someone who LIED / assumed/ And Im accused of being defensive LOL all know me - Know that was far from the case.
Now however defensive sure this post will be.

However I am smart enough and I love all breeds to know that If I take the bait of you vs me thing some of u have turned this into. It will hurt the breeds This comes with thinking OUTSIDE of my breed
What affects one breed affects all.
So pls go ahead talk crap to elevate yourself cause your EGOS are so fragile that you tie your dogs / breeds cons in with yourself-sad
I made many valid non personal points yet all i get in return is this . .
So typical of people with limited work in most breeds to make ass u mptions.

MY one trick heathy non HD riddled ,laid back easy going , all weather, non inbred natural guardian that can take down a BEAR and live 4000 thousand year old breed has stood the test of REAL LIFE TIME .

PS Dan your dog is still dam nice you however r typical of the stuck up GSD crowd who thinks they are gods gift to dogs. Turning more people off the breed based on the owners vs the dogs themselves.

In the mean time I have dedicated my life to preserving what nature created .
And I will be remembered right wrong or indifferent for it.
WOnder if I can say the same for all.
 
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