Guardian breeds?

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Izzy's Valkyrie, Sep 3, 2009.

  1. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    So, I've probably posted three different threads about breeds I'm curious about but Zoom pointed out a few I'd never thought of. I've always wanted to have a guardian breed dog in the house since that's what I grew up with and what I love but Justin isn't big on any of the bully or short coated breeds.

    Zoom pointed me in the direction of the Kuvasz and Anatolian and they both look lovely to me :) So, what do people know, if anything about these breeds?

    Other breeds I'm interested in include: Tervurens, Aussies, GSDs and similarly longer coated dogs.
     
  2. Amstaffer

    Amstaffer New Member

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    Kuvasz and Anatolian are both LiveStock Guardian Dogs. Territorial and somewhat independent. If you are interested in this type of dog PM Planet Molosser. She is an excellent breeder of Central Asian Shepherds which is a Livestock Guardian Breed. I am sure she'll know plenty about the breeds you mentioned.

    They have a different temperament than some of the other dogs you mentioned like the GSD.
     
  3. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I used to house-sit for a Kuvasz. Keeping in mind that it was NOT the ideal home for the dog (owners had always had Maltese, and wanted a white dog that would be protective of the elderly owners when they were home), I was not a big fan of the dog. Huge barker - I drove home at 2 am finally to get some sleep, because the dog was barking non-stop the first night - at me. I have no doubt she would have bitten in many situations.

    The only other one I've known was an actual LGD, and couldn't have cared less about people. She lived outside with her alpaca herd, and did her job.

    I assume there is some happy medium between those two extremes!
     
  4. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    most LGDs are huge barkers as they try to drive off threats w/a noisy & aggressive display before engaging.
     
  5. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    I've had a chance to talk to several people who had Kuvasz -- people who had done their research and not just bought them because they thought they looked cool -- and they did stress that if you want an affectionate dog the Kuvasz is NOT the dog you're looking for.
     
  6. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Haven't had any personal experience with them aside from casual meet and greeting, but Tibetan mastiffs might be something to look into. The ones I met were really affectionate with their immediate family, and seemed very stable and balanced. Beyond that I can't tell you anything.

    Do akitas count? I think, technically they are a hunting dog, but they share a lot of traits with LGDs as far as intelligence, wariness of strangers, etc. and I think they have been used in the capacity of LGDs in the past.

    Our neighbor had a gsd/anatolian mix (mom was pure anatolian) when I was a kid. She wasn't very well trained, but her basic personality was of a large boisterous happy dog that loved kids and loved having fun and loved chewing on stuff. I don't ever remember her guarding anything, but then again she knew us and I was just a kid.

    Actually, a good afghan hound will be defensive of family and their home turf (unlike most hounds). And they are intensely loyal and close with their families. My uncle's afghan would have reamed any trespassers dumb enough to come into their yard, and the dog let them know it too. Most don't get that large though.
     
  7. Barb04

    Barb04 Love my pets Staff Member

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    My Max is an Anatolian. I think he makes the perfect guardian dog as well as family dog. He is alert to whatever is going on outside the house but inside can lay in the couch all comfortable. If he hears a noise, he's the first to respond. None of my dogs were raised around children but when my 5 year old niece came for a visit, Max greeted her with lots of kisses. He was so good around her. You have to know the breed and understand that they have "a mind of their own". They shouldn't be walked off leash as they may one day decide to do something other than what you want. Some on my board have commented how well they do at obedience, etc. classes to one day in the class decide "I don't feel like doing that". Max was my first dog that size and having this unique temperament. I would always own an Anatolian.
     
  8. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Not all LGDS are aloof or huge barkers.
    Normally the females are more alert than males .

    When you compare nuisance barkers or howlers like Beagles to LGDS the LGD bark MUCH less.. They bark for a reason.

    LGDS bark in defense not to be heard or for hell of it.
    They bark when contained in a house or fencing - they here or see movement noise. IF loose tey dont BAY or sound off they go find the new thing. And will protect if the bad thing is a bear or bad guy, if engage they bark very little. When you hear barking and then SILENCE you know withinn 3 secs they wil battle what is coming into the area . They bark alert posture dance charge and last report engage.

    Some LGDS were bred to be alone with sheep and are more aloof towards strangers.
    A lgd line of ASD or Pry or Kuvasz are not people oriented. You cna find aglity lines of ASD or show lines of Pry and they will be more into people. But sometimes they lose their naturel instincts by doing soo.

    LGDS are livestock guadians not all are traditonal however CASD and COS and Sars and
    are territory guardians not lGDS. They simply protect what is in their areas be it sheep - you or trucks . CASDS are the nomads dog dating back to same time as TM"S
    CASD seek human interaction if from working lines .
    Some of these breeds simply existed thousands of years before we had AKC or classificatons such as LGD or Guardian or working or herding group.

    Some fall between groups such as the CASD ..

    Here is a working line of CAS wth kids ,.

    Mind you when you get a LGD or a CAS in most cases you want a dog that WILL bite when engaged in defense . They are NOT watch dogs that bark and back off.

    Many can make excellent family dogs . Its not that they bite their kids . But you need to think ahead a 14 year old girl who sneaks boyfriend into window at 2 am and hhe is 16 is NOT a kid to the dog - it is a bad guy who should NOT be coming thru wndow since no one else does it so not routine. they are very distrusting at nite, plus they read emotions and doing something bad higthens sweat glands all making the dog alert and ON. When NOT if the dog bites BY in window. Newspaper will read KID bit, Not 180lbs man in most cultures kids.

    Its not about your kids it about having kids you need to teach dog common sense too and then HOPING they do follow ALLLLLLL your rules? and simply that is when issues come in. Friends leaving gates open, friends rough housing, figths kids have with friends. parents of other kids coming over that the dog LOVEs and strking their kid in front of he dog. The dog will extend its family unit to bobby who visits eeach day.
    Or you get divorced marry new this new guy raises his hand to your kid without stripking he wont cause as soon as the kid yelps in fear the LGD will push down at min the new gu.

    See where im going? DO not get a LGD unless you want protection from predators be it 2 or 4 legged. Do NOT get them as a family pet first or a watch dog. They are foremost guardians that 99 percent of the time are family dogs.

    FoxFire Farms Biography of a Professional Dog Breeder 13 years - Our Dogs Behavior with humans - Powered by PhotoPost

    I wont post pics here cause u need to seem them engaged in protection to understand it is what they do. Cute pics or show pics give wrong impressions

    thanks amstaffer
     
  9. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    Wow! Thanks for all of the information. Honestly, I would be completely content never having Kids and just having a big dog to fill that void. However, Justin really wants at least one kid and I definitely hear what you're saying about LGD's and the responsibility they are with families.

    I will look in to the more Personal/family guardian oriented dogs (Those like the German Shepherd) And with any luck will be able to show Justin something that he likes.

    I love the look of Afghan hounds but I've heard they're rather aloof generally. How are sight hounds for alerting/barking in defense? Justin does like the look of Greyhounds (randomly) and when we move into a house we plan to have a ton of (fenced) space so we're not trying to trap any dog in a tiny area.

    Do border collies do well with alerting at all? He's fallen in love with them lately. I know Aussies do well alerting, is there a larger herding breed we could look at?
     
  10. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    RR are good watch dogs.
    Most of the dogs you stated inc the GSD can act or are watch dogs.
    Watch dogs will bark and alert and sometime bite or Nip from behind .
    But most inc the GSD bred as pets or show dogs or even PP dogs have to be trained to protect. Some lines of HSD are harder and most are sold only as Police dogs in which they are defensive and work in defense vs prey drive or rank( only for experts).

    Herding breeds are activated by movement .
    Tthus like the GSD if someone runs who is a bad guy they may get a nice nip in the butt. But if a bad guy or a good guy turned bad gets nasty and does NOT run -
    You want a guardian breed with natural defense drives,
    Number one watch dog in the cities were Taco bell dogs . Simply in small spaces but big cities all they wanted was a dog thta would bark at strange things.
    Most burglars dont want attention and will pick the house - close to another that has NO dogs to wake the neighbors..

    S Hounds are normally not watch dogs no way guardians.

    THis thread should read GOOD watch dogs .NO better than the GSD and u can get a long coated one.. Good pet and family dog Newfie will bark and great at swimming.

    Guard dogs are dogs that naturally GUARD.

    Rottie , Corso, Neo, PRy Lower end of defense
    rare LGDS, ASD- Akbash- CASD etc..
    High end of defense Fila - Caucasian Ovcharka- Fila Sao Miquel

    This is as per the standards for each breed. You can breed a SOFT line of Fila and a hard line of Rottie.
     
  11. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Izzy, most Aussies I've been around would not only alert, but, if the intruder didn't back off in a hurry, would give good reason for him to ;)
     
  12. ponbc

    ponbc New Member

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    bcs and alerting

    I think with bcs it's going to depend on the dog. My crew of 3, all related, alert quite well. :) They also have different levels of alerting. A strange cat in our backyard at 11:00 pm gets them all up and peering out the window. How they can see I have no idea! If it's one of our cats, though, they don't alert. A possum or racoon will get some woofs. A strange person, however, gets the full serious intruder bark. My husband travels and I feel very safe with my pack in the house. They also bark when someone knocks at the door. We don't get many door to door salesmen at our door, unlike the neighbors!
     
  13. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I've always thought of my Goldens as guardian dogs . No , they wouldn't attack ( at least they weren't tested ) but always gave warnings . One time some hunters came into our woods and as my female ran towards them barking , they dropped their guns and put up their hands . All I ever wanted was an alert and they never failed me !
     
  14. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Well UKC had a group for Guardian dogs that include dogs created for Guarding, which is the AKC working group or the FCI group two Molossoids.

    When someone calls me about guard dogs and ask about show lines .
    I ask them if you want a hunting dog do u buy from show parents that do NOT hunt or the lines they breed are bred for show and none are hunting. or do you buy a hunting prospect from a hunting breeder that may show but really hunts the dogs.

    Guard means just that even in human terms when I was a guard for a company I was expected to put myself in front of bad things to stop it.
    When my uncle was a Nite Watch men on the loading docks he was told to call the supervisor and the cops when he saw or heard something but not to engage.

    If more breeders attempted to breed to the breed standard ( if it is not changed to meet the new age idealisms) in regards to temp we would have much less rescues.

    Why cause someone who wants a pet that watches and does NOT engage it going to be pretty upset with me when the dog injures someone in defense of their home ,
    Now the dog needs a new home. Breeders need to make matches on breed owner and then each pups own personality.

    I just got a call from a DR got a Dogo as a guard dog. Dog wont guard but will bark.
    I asked him do you have wild boar or cougar in your yard? he said no I replied why did you buy a hunting dog created to hunt? He was like OHHHH but the breeder said they can guard too but would NOT guarantee guarding temperament.

    I have 2 dogs that passed a TDI Therapy dog test only one can function as a working Therapy dog. So that wont make my breed the new therapy dog.
    I am a bit more grounded and I go on standards and breed histories.

    A retriever per say kept in a yard to guard or a farm to guard with no play time fetching fun will get bored and cause problems. BC are very active dogs and need me time with owners and the happy ones are playing and herding or doing new activities to keep their highly intelligent minds active.

    So when my sister got the cute Yellow lab cause she liked calandars,
    She was a bit taken back when the cute pup ATE her aPPT walls left alone all day. I said u live down from a beach why did u get a lab if you are not a outdoors want to play swim person ,ansewer they are so CUTTTEEE.
    Mind you she still has her 8 years later after 2 acl surgeries and many plaster job fix ups.

    Ive done more rescues than I can count .Most all are because the dogs behavior did not match with the new owners...

    Exceptions to the rule apply in all aspects can a Lab do a guard dog job ? yes can a
    CASD be a therapy dog? sure but they are exceptions to the rule vs the rule themselves.
     
  15. Zhucca

    Zhucca Lab Love

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    Well I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Planet Molosser I always enjoy your posts, you're very knowledgeable.

    I am very very interested in a CAS these days because their lack of DA/DR tendencies. I was originally after a Tibetan Mastiff however they can have same sex aggression and DR issues and I'd rather avoid that.
     
  16. Squishy22

    Squishy22 Guest

    Where would a presa canario fall in there? sorry for sidetracking.
     
  17. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Presa are shown in the UKC Guardian group and FCI Molosser.
    They are a all purpose general farm dog that will guard and was originally bred to move cattle of Spanish Ships and guard the farms they were used in.
    You will see them doing PP work - agility- racing- obedience.

    They are NOT the monsters that were portrayed on the whipple case.
    But they are not family dogs. They can be a family dog to someone who wants this type of guard dog. Ive shown a few and not one bonded with me no matter the time I spent with them. They seem closer to the Fila in regards to devotion to the family.

    Different than my CASD who extend beyond immediate family.
     
  18. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    What exactly are you looking for in a "guard" dog? Most traditional guardian breeds are going to be more than most people want.

    Aussies, especially the working lines, have a great watchdog/guarding tendencies. There are plenty of stories of Aussies not letting strangers on the property or getting into the wrong car and not letting the rightful owners back in, because they saw it as "theirs." Yet at the same time, they can easily move through modern society and aren't typically listed on "prohibited breeds" lists.
     
  19. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Thanks guys- 1st time going out all summer to off to salsa club got a few ? n Pvt will answer tomorrow if my body dont give in. So last post for day.

    My fav as a child was Lassie and size is a helping factor in detering crime.
    Lad was 120lbs long snout big teeth and the toll booth clerk would not reach out for the money on the Verrazano bridge and he was not doing anything other then panting out the window.

    Chows have been great family dogs and very tough guard dogs since they bite more with the whole mouth vs the front teeth most herding dogs do.( require grooming)
    They look like little bears and I have never met a people friendly outgoing chow that wanted attention from strangers at home or on leash.

    Most dogs can sense right from wrong and have tendencies to have a chase herding drive. Thus a bite often occurs on accident for any breed of dog.

    Guard dogs bring home a sense of huge work on the owner, fencing, containment, socializaton, research into a good line, insurance, proper signs and the most important common sense LOGIC most owners dont have.
    Ex u order Pizza figure it will be here 30 mins u then decide to take shower , 15 mins later they had a extra pie so he is at front screen door and u did not close the inside door cause a u have a guard dog , b he is not coming for 15 mins, c its is HOT.

    What happens all that signs and fencing went out the window cause u called the person to come = your dog bit him.

    famous case just like that with GSD a family of GSD mom pop and litter outside.
    Owner calls for lawn repair, the guys show up early, he is in shower, he is yelling from windown to not get out of car. his wife has not control of dogs since the hubby is alpha, the dogs growl at strangers who now jump behind wife and grab her arms for protection. The dogs now are working as a pack and defend wife and pups.
    Dog had to be put down due to damage to lawn person.

    So yes huge responceability comes with any dog let alone a guard dog or a GSD.
    GSD Rotties Presa anything shepherd are on insurance and cities watch list for more insurance or banned.

    However the plus is when you are owned by a real guard dog. Knowing you are safe when traveling alone or home with hubby gone for days. you dont jump at every soubd.
    I say if u can get past the CAS take the big screen u deserve it.
    However All I want them to do for me is guard my home when I am NOT here.
    So I dont walk in on bad guy.
    And tell me when I am sleeping if bad is coming my way long enough to call 911 AND protect myself. I would take a bullet for them.

    is a sense of security unlike most breeds of dogs.
    Also knowing that the few black bears we have here will also never get a chance to hurt me.

    So in conclusion if u do not have a high crime area, or have a job with odd hours or a hubby that goes away for long times or works nites.
    Just get a good watch dog and who in most cases will nip at a person whoe tries to steal your bike from the yard. That is more than what most people need.
    Your life will be easier you with training can do and go just about any where with a good watch dog and enjoy activities outside the realm of a guardian breed.

    PS I love Chinnoks too if u are in snow country they love to pull sleds.

    PLUS fact is if you rescue a dog from the pound any breed so often these abused cases will DIE protecting you . Why caused you saved them!!!

    Bye off to salsa my ass off hopefully :(
    PS have allergic reaction to nail polish right eye is swollen so typing is worse than normal.
     
  20. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    Thanks again PM for all of the info!

    What am I looking for? Well, honestly that's a two pronged answer for me. Since the apartment complex I'm living in got robbed then my bike got stolen and Justin works weird hours, leaving me to walk home in the dark sometimes, I figured I wanted a real guard dog that would walk me home and give me some peace of mind. I do, however, fully understand that I won't be living in this place forever (hopefully out in the next two years) and since we have variable roommates with friends over, it isn't the best idea to get a real LGD type dog or a Molosser.

    A lot of this planning as far as dogs go is also for the future when I am unsure of where I will live other than above the Mason Dixon (hopefully NY). And in the future I'll probably be married (hopefully) and will eventually have at least one kid. So the situation for whichever dog I get in the future will probably be a family one and I have it in my head that if I want a real guardian I'll need to wait my kid out and see how they are with their friends before taking the plunge.

    What do I want specifically? I want a dog that will be a watchdog, that is one that will bark when something iffy is happening outside, be that a wolf, bear, or burglar. I want a dog that will guard not only the house but the people inside the house (Particularly the children and me) So that if we're outside in the yard at night having a cook out or telling ghost stories, we don't have to worry about someone or something coming up to interrupt us. I'd like a dog that, if I have to leave my kid at home for ten minutes while I run to the store, will make sure no one but me or other family is coming in the door.

    And most of these requirements do point to a rather work intensive dog. One that I will have to socialize everyday, teach basic obedience to early on, and introduce new people to slowly and cautiously with the rules of this dog set before them. I want this dog to be a part of the family that not only shares a home and love but some peace of mind.

    That said, I want to steal Kharma from Renee! But I'll be doing some research with Justin and will post any breed/breeders I have in mind. It will be a multi-year process though, so thanks for giving me a good basis of thought about the breed I may eventually own.

    (FYI: Izzy won't bark at the door... She's soooo useless for a watchdog lol)
     

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