Double Merle Breeding

[SaraB]

I have little to add to this convo, but I found this quote interesting, because many Koolie breeders would concur... and still use two merles.

While most breeders have begun including solids in their breedings programs, the reality is that the population of solids in Koolies so small that breeding based on whether dogs are merle or solid could cripple the breed's gene pool. Many Koolie breeders who do merleXmerle and it has nothing to do with color, just reproducing the quality of dog they want.

It's a tough situation to be in, when most of the breed is merle. Do you breed two high quality dogs together, regardless of color? Do you settle for a lesser solid or one from unideal lineage? Do you spend years waiting for the right solid to pop up from the right litter?

This issues are little more complex in what has always been a "merle breed" until recently than in breeds like Aussies, BC's, Cardis... etc.

This. Exactly how I feel. Wish it wasn't like this with koolies and maybe in 10 years it won't be, however it is the harsh reality.

 

[Aleron]

It's a tough situation to be in, when most of the breed is merle. Do you breed two high quality dogs together, regardless of color? Do you settle for a lesser solid or one from unideal lineage? Do you spend years waiting for the right solid to pop up from the right litter?

In a breed like Koolies, I think it will take awhile for there to be a good solid population but it's doable if the breeders are interested in it. The best way I could see would be if there was enough interest in such puppies, doing solid to solid breedings between the best solids one could find and maintaining as many as possible for potentially breeding. I don't think that will be doable in the US any time soon unless the breed becomes much more popular than it is now.

As was already mentioned, this sort of change is hard and comes about very, very slowly. It's easy to post the answers to other breed's issues on a forum and think "It's so easy, why can't they just do it already?!". But things in real life are never that simple. With the Koolies, first you need interest in solids. That in itself could be a pretty big obstacle if the breed is still largely looked at as a merle breed and people needing working dogs still looks at merles as the the only true Koolies. Then you need either the ability to keep a lot of dogs yourself or a network of homes willing to keep intact dogs for you to use. And you need time. If you are waiting until the dogs are at least 2 to breed them, it will take years before you can establish a population of quality solids to use on a wider scale in the breed.

 

[SaraB]

As was already mentioned, this sort of change is hard and comes about very, very slowly. It's easy to post the answers to other breed's issues on a forum and think "It's so easy, why can't they just do it already?!". But things in real life are never that simple. With the Koolies, first you need interest in solids. That in itself could be a pretty big obstacle if the breed is still largely looked at as a merle breed and people needing working dogs still looks at merles as the the only true Koolies. Then you need either the ability to keep a lot of dogs yourself or a network of homes willing to keep intact dogs for you to use. And you need time. If you are waiting until the dogs are at least 2 to breed them, it will take years before you can establish a population of quality solids to use on a wider scale in the breed.

Excellent post. :hail:

 

[vandog]

Did you mean Yata Hae? I thought you didn't know anything about that breeder though, despite your "years" of research.

I'm happy to share my notes with you Sara, all you have to do is ask

 

[vandog]

In a breed like Koolies, I think it will take awhile for there to be a good solid population but it's doable if the breeders are interested in it. The best way I could see would be if there was enough interest in such puppies, doing solid to solid breedings between the best solids one could find and maintaining as many as possible for potentially breeding. I don't think that will be doable in the US any time soon unless the breed becomes much more popular than it is now.

As was already mentioned, this sort of change is hard and comes about very, very slowly. It's easy to post the answers to other breed's issues on a forum and think "It's so easy, why can't they just do it already?!". But things in real life are never that simple. With the Koolies, first you need interest in solids. That in itself could be a pretty big obstacle if the breed is still largely looked at as a merle breed and people needing working dogs still looks at merles as the the only true Koolies. Then you need either the ability to keep a lot of dogs yourself or a network of homes willing to keep intact dogs for you to use. And you need time. If you are waiting until the dogs are at least 2 to breed them, it will take years before you can establish a population of quality solids to use on a wider scale in the breed.

Excellent post. "it's doable if the breeders are interested in it." So true!
That's the crux of the problem though - for instance, when I inquired on puppies, I told breeders specifically I wasn't interested in puppies from a double merle breeding. Majority of breeders sell or don't plan on keeping all of their puppies. If puppy buyers were to stand up and say no to double merle breedings, you'd think that would help encourage some breedings of solid to merle?

 

[laxndogs819]

It is unfortunate that there aren't many solids out there...I have a red try Aussie and wanted so bad to try and find a solid red pup, they are just so striking- in any breed!

In Aussies & BCs there seem to be a plethora of colors that arise from a solid x merle (geven the genetics are diverse enough!), but I don't really see enough solids being bred to merles in C/Koolies to see it in them. There are a lot of interesting Merle patterns though! My pup's sire isn't what I would say is a very normal color in the breed, and the other pups in the litter are certainly quite striking- but also very different colors (sable merles?)

The science behind all the colors that come out in so many breeds seems so very interesting!Another interesting one I'd love to know more about is the Harlequins in Danes, Catahoulas, etc...

 

[DogKisses]

I agree. If more people wanted solids, the breeders would breed for more solid dogs. It's a shame that color has anything to do with it.

My point was that a breeder should not be breeding (imo) high white merles. That dog was almost pts for it's color. Now it may be bred. Yes to a soild, but who breeds a dog that was almost culled? Why add that to your breeding program? Most merle/merle breeders wouldn't even touch that dog with a 30ft pole because she is high white.

The solid dog (imo) doesn't look like any koolie I have ever seen. I have seen red solids, but not that shade. I can't get over how he looks more like a Carolina dog than a koolie. Not saying he is a Carolina dog, because I don't feel he is. But I doubt he is a koolie, that is my opinion. Also given the fact that no one knows where these dogs even came from.

I should have clarified that is was my OPINION in my other post, but I thought that it was a given lol. Any anger in my post is not directed to anyone here, at all. It's toward a breeder that says she doesn't condone merle/merle breeding but does it herself. Because quiet frankly merle/merle is risky business & it would be awesome if the breed pulled back from it, but it's not going to happen overnight.

All of that said, is the little bi colored (?) dog yours? Because breeder aside, she is adorable!!!

 

[Ida Parmer]

Hi Dogkisses -- wow, I have no idea what I ever done to you. If anyone wants to know my business or anything about my dogs - please feel free to contact me through private message I would be glad to answer all the questions that are placed here on a forum by someone who doesn't even know me. Gosh why don't you post a picture of that yellow Lab or solid black Kelpie that your friend uses for breeding, or her obvious double merle male that she uses - that she says is a KOOLIE???? Well, it shows how very little you know about genetics, because Mibby isn't a merle to merle breeding and she isn't a double merle. :rofl1:

So, instead of bad mouthing and bashing like a bunch of little kids -- why not just ask the source? ME. I will be waiting for the emails ... unless you all would just like to continue to bash here like children.

Oh and by the way - THANK YOU for all the FREE advertisement, because I have had several people contact me and after speaking to me and meeting my dogs --- they know you are just a sad person with no life except to fixate and be mean to someone else. Have a nice day.

 

[Ida Parmer]

About Yata Hae for those that asked:

1) website says health testing is done, what kind of health testing? The info is nowhere to be found, I asked and she said "it's on the website," except it's not.

2) she does in fact breed merle x merle. Why does she never have solid colored pups? Also look for yourself at the sires/dams: http://www.germancoolies.com/ They are merle.

3) why is she the only breeder with those colors? She is the only C/Koolie breeder with those colors.

4) where did her original breeding stock come from? Out of thin air? She said she imported them, but refused to say where they came from.

5) why is she still breeding dogs when she doesn't live with them? With her last litter she had someone go to wherever her dogs are, get the puppies, and raise the puppies for her. Why breed when someone else has to raise the litter? Why not take a break from breeding until she can be with her dogs again?

All of that aside, yeah great breeder....

I have solid colored Coolies - you've never asked to see them.

You've never asked me about where my dogs came from, so how on earth can I "refuse".

How do you know I breed merle to merle, every breeding? How do you know anything about what I do -- you've never asked me .... you'd rather come here and bash me.

If you really want to know my business, just ask. I work 3 hours away from my house. My dogs are at the ranch, I stay close to work during the week and drive home on Friday night and drive the 3 hours on Monday to work. opcorn:

You'd rather come here and bad mouth instead of just asking me. It's sad when a person needs to be mean to another person to make themself feel better.

If anyone wants to know about genetics -- just ask, because I am well versed in it. And if you want to know about my breeding ethics -- ask. Better yet, send me a private message

 

[Ida Parmer]

Who is "Yata Hae" and how did they get into the conversation?

Evidently Dogkisses has questions that she won't ask me - you'd rather come here and bash.

 

[Ida Parmer]

I agree. If more people wanted solids, the breeders would breed for more solid dogs. It's a shame that color has anything to do with it.

My point was that a breeder should not be breeding (imo) high white merles. That dog was almost pts for it's color. Now it may be bred. Yes to a soild, but who breeds a dog that was almost culled? Why add that to your breeding program? Most merle/merle breeders wouldn't even touch that dog with a 30ft pole because she is high white.

The solid dog (imo) doesn't look like any koolie I have ever seen. I have seen red solids, but not that shade. I can't get over how he looks more like a Carolina dog than a koolie. Not saying he is a Carolina dog, because I don't feel he is. But I doubt he is a koolie, that is my opinion. Also given the fact that no one knows where these dogs even came from.

I should have clarified that is was my OPINION in my other post, but I thought that it was a given lol. Any anger in my post is not directed to anyone here, at all. It's toward a breeder that says she doesn't condone merle/merle breeding but does it herself. Because quiet frankly merle/merle is risky business & it would be awesome if the breed pulled back from it, but it's not going to happen overnight.

All of that said, is the little bi colored (?) dog yours? Because breeder aside, she is adorable!!!

How many Coolies have you seen?? WOW I could post a picture of a solid black dog and a yellow Lab looking dog that a breeder (who is on your friend list on FB) uses to breed with that is REGISTERED as a Koolie -- one looks like a Kelpie the other like a Lab. AND one of her dogs is a double merle with a PINK nose that is also registered as a Koolie, but has a bully head. WOW ---- why don't you just ask me instead of posting FALSE information?? Mibby is NOT a double merle. You are not educated in genetics, so maybe you should do some research.

It's sad that you have fixated on me and my dogs -- we have done nothing to you. Get a life other than being mean, geez.

 

[Ida Parmer]

I'm happy to share my notes with you Sara, all you have to do is ask

Why don't you private message me and let me know what you've found out, because I'm sure you've never asked ME.

 

[Ida Parmer]

The point was that it's not a typical color found in Koolies, being bred by a Koolie breeder who breeds other atypical colors. Not at all that a solid is being bred to a merle. Two separate points that just happen to be in the same thread.

I've seen that same color on other Coolies, but the owners call it "red", it's a sable. It's amazing that some people have seen every single color of Coolie in the country of Australia -- WOW. :hail:

 

[Ida Parmer]

It's funny because she slams other breeders for breeding merle/merle. Pot, meet kettle.

The dogs look like mixes to me, honestly. There is 2 dogs in particular, a "red" (like carolina dog red) and a different dog with ticking on it's legs.

Let me see if I can find it.

What I said was (if you're going to quote me at least get it right) - those that continue to breed merle to merle and PRODUCE DEAF AND BLIND pups should not do that.

They probably do look like mixes to you, because you've probably never seen authentic GERMAN COOLIES --- I do know that the Koolies there, some are crossed and the owners admit to it, but they are still called Koolie and are registered as such.

What is your education in genetics? Yeah, thought so ...

 

[-bogart-]

What I said was (if you're going to quote me at least get it right) - those that continue to breed merle to merle and PRODUCE DEAF AND BLIND pups should not do that.

They probably do look like mixes to you, because you've probably never seen authentic GERMAN COOLIES --- I do know that the Koolies there, some are crossed and the owners admit to it, but they are still called Koolie and are registered as such.

What is your education in genetics? Yeah, thought so ...

HEY WELCOME TO CHAZ,,,,

and um i can see how you feel attacked , but coming into a forum and attacking back is not going to win you many friends here. How about coming in and offering to answer questions and explaoning theses german koolies to us. I have never heard of them and thought all koolies came from australia.


anyway , Is there a way to breed M/M? is it really the white genes patterns causeing the problems , or a combo?

generally we are a friendly bunch here and undoubtedly some one pointed this thread out to you , I hope you stick around educate us , we all just are here to learn and hang out with like minded doggie peeps.

 

[Ida Parmer]

Not attacking anyone, just telling the facts.

You can come to my genetics page and ask any questions you want.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/402861613074473/

 

[SaraB]

Why don't you private message me and let me know what you've found out, because I'm sure you've never asked ME.

I have emailed you and never received a response. I will go ahead and ask my questions here then.

Avalon Coolies and the majority of the K/Coolie breeders in Australia are open about where they have gotten their dogs from. Can you please tell me where you coolies originated? What have you done to keep your lines "fresh" without a lot of tight inbreeding? Are you outcrossing to other breeds, importing new coolies or outcrossing to Avalon? There seems to be a high rate of sable and tan pointed coolies in your lines, do you specifically breed for this color or does it just work out that way? It is very pretty, however seems to be unique to your dogs. Are your dogs a different breed from Australian Koolies, if so, what makes them different and why do you feel they justify this breed classification? Are your dogs health tested through a reliable organization like the OFA?

Thank you! I'm new to the k/coolie world and am going to be acquiring my new pup at the end of August from Toolalla Koolies. She will be an import from Australia. I plan on eventually breeding her after she proves herself on stock, gains her titles in agility and has her health testing done. I will be searching for a solid stud for her and would love to learn more about the solids in North America.

 

[-bogart-]

Not attacking anyone, just telling the facts.

You can come to my genetics page and ask any questions you want.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/402861613074473/

UM , NO i dont have a facebook. i used to , but due to family drama got rid of it.
i do have a google+ but am not really on there much either , i just chaz it mostly. lol my family doesn"t know about this place!

so do you not want to talk about this or not?
if not okay , continue on with whatever you came here to do , i came to talk dogs and dont really care about the other stuff.



anyway , to whomever else , how many patterns do the have genetic tests for anyway?

 

[SaraB]

anyway , to whomever else , how many patterns do the have genetic tests for anyway?

I know they have a piebald test for danes now... Not sure on others.

 

[-bogart-]

I know they have a piebald test for danes now... Not sure on others.

now maybe we should decide what piebald is ,
i mean there are so many names for colors.

okay just to put it out there , i know zilch about all this.

now piebald is the white with brown/black spots correct? isn't this called parti in some breeds also?

now merle is the grey/black broken color right.

i have googled and read and am trying to get ths straight in my head , all while i am supposed to be working lol

so is it like horse with few base colors and a crap load of modifers? i lurk on HGS and am sloooowwwwlllllllyyyyyyy absorbing coat colors and find this fascinating in dogs to.



ow edit , samoyeds are doing research on piebald and deafness/
http://www.samoyedhealthfoundation.org/diseases/piebald-or-extreme-piebald-gene-2013-deafness

so seems like white = bad things


2nd edit , what company is generally believed to be a good one to use for genetic color testing?