Double Merle Breeding

Aleron

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I don't know about the rest, but I saw solid pups without digging.
I had a real hard time trying to figure out how to find pictures/info of her breeding dogs. Very hard website to navigate! Some of these dogs seem to be a very different "type" than other Koolies I have looked at. Anyway, I clicked on each parents name and it seems that last year she had a merle to merle litter out of Glock and Aurie (pictured at the top of this page): http://www.germancoolies.com/

And these are the resulting puppies: http://www.germancoolies.com/GA050111.html
 

Aleron

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I don't know about the rest, but I saw solid pups without digging.
I had a real hard time trying to figure out how to find pictures/info of her breeding dogs. Still am not sure. Very hard website to navigate! Some of these dogs seem to be a very different "type" than other Koolies I have looked at. Anyway, I clicked on each parents name and it seems that last year she had a merle to merle litter out of Glock and Aurie (pictured at the top of this page): http://www.germancoolies.com/

And these are the resulting puppies: http://www.germancoolies.com/GA050111.html
 
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It's funny because she slams other breeders for breeding merle/merle. Pot, meet kettle.

The dogs look like mixes to me, honestly. There is 2 dogs in particular, a "red" (like carolina dog red) and a different dog with ticking on it's legs.

Let me see if I can find it.
 
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Here is an Yata Hae Coolie snagged from facebook (closed group tho):

Edit: Watermarked photos removed by request.

All grown up, and miss Ida herself said she may breed this dog one day, on her fb. Here is a direct copy/past:


(Ida) "Janelle, she is a black sable merle with pie bald pattern. Her sire is a solid black with white toe tips (he carried the irish spotting pattern) and her dam was a sable merle (carried the pie bald pattern).
Mar 29 · Like · 3
Ida
"IF" I breed her, I will breed her to a solid black."

<snip>

"Ida, if you breed Mibby to solid black, what will puppies most likely look like??
Mar 31 · Like
Ida
The solid black male carries the chocolate and dilute gene, plus carries Irish Spotting gene. Mibby is a sable merle and white. I do not know if she carries chocolate or the dilute gene - her father did and brother Snoogs does. So, if she carries the chocolate gene and dilute gene - the pups could be: black, chocolate, blue (dilute black), Lilac (dilute brown), all will have the irish spotting - they will be either sable, tan points or merle - hope that makes sense. It will be my first litter with the irish spotting gene. "
 
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vandog

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About Yata Hae for those that asked:

1) website says health testing is done, what kind of health testing? The info is nowhere to be found, I asked and she said "it's on the website," except it's not.

2) she does in fact breed merle x merle. Why does she never have solid colored pups? Also look for yourself at the sires/dams: http://www.germancoolies.com/ They are merle.

3) why is she the only breeder with those colors? She is the only C/Koolie breeder with those colors.

4) where did her original breeding stock come from? Out of thin air? She said she imported them, but refused to say where they came from.

5) why is she still breeding dogs when she doesn't live with them? With her last litter she had someone go to wherever her dogs are, get the puppies, and raise the puppies for her. Why breed when someone else has to raise the litter? Why not take a break from breeding until she can be with her dogs again?

All of that aside, yeah great breeder....
Who is "Yata Hae" and how did they get into the conversation?
 

Romy

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Who is "Yata Hae" and how did they get into the conversation?
Yeah, I'm not sure how this thread turned into attacking a specific breeder? :confused: I could go on puppyfind and come up with fifty double merle breeders to criticize, but what's the point in singling people out?
 

vandog

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Yeah, I'm not sure how this thread turned into attacking a specific breeder? :confused: I could go on puppyfind and come up with fifty double merle breeders to criticize, but what's the point in singling people out?
To be fair, I singled out a breeder by quote (not by name) as well. It was as an example for feelings regarding merle breeding. You can find it a few threads back.
 

vandog

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Here is an Yata Hae Coolie snagged from facebook (closed group tho):






Here is another Yata Hae bred dog:

As a pup.




All grown up, and miss Ida herself said she may breed this dog one day, on her fb. Here is a direct copy/past:


(Ida) "Janelle, she is a black sable merle with pie bald pattern. Her sire is a solid black with white toe tips (he carried the irish spotting pattern) and her dam was a sable merle (carried the pie bald pattern).
Mar 29 · Like · 3
Ida
"IF" I breed her, I will breed her to a solid black."

<snip>

"Ida, if you breed Mibby to solid black, what will puppies most likely look like??
Mar 31 · Like
Ida
The solid black male carries the chocolate and dilute gene, plus carries Irish Spotting gene. Mibby is a sable merle and white. I do not know if she carries chocolate or the dilute gene - her father did and brother Snoogs does. So, if she carries the chocolate gene and dilute gene - the pups could be: black, chocolate, blue (dilute black), Lilac (dilute brown), all will have the irish spotting - they will be either sable, tan points or merle - hope that makes sense. It will be my first litter with the irish spotting gene. "
Not sure what the fuss is here. I don't know enough about this breeder to comment (I honestly never researched any in the US until recently) but when it comes to Koolies I've seen some interesting...types.

I'm not sure what the sable merle example is supposed to be... wrong color? It is not the result of a double merle breeding which is what is being discussed here.
 
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Goodness gracious... Merle x Merle is risky REGARDLESS OF BREED!!! Anyone who passed middle school science and can draw out a punnet square can tell you that, as many people have already mentioned. I have an Aussie, a C/Koolie, and had a Border Collie up until recently when she passed. This is always of such a large discussion with these breeds (and others), and it's kind of sick. I've been involved in the dog business and even as a pet owner for enough time to see way too many deaf and blind dogs that have to suffer for no fault of their own- but because of poor breeding choices. Sure, it is certainly possible that merle x merle can produce an all merle litter once in a blue moon, maybe. But to know the possibilities of having pups that you will either cull off or will live a shorter, unhealthy life? Just wrong. I certainly love the lethal whites I've met and the people that adopt these dogs are so kind to open their hearts and homes to them to put forth that extra effort that comes with having a visual/auditory impaired dog.

Merle x Merle also is more risky depending on the amount of white- most working line Aussies, BC's etc tend to have less white and when I see them bred Mm x Mm, the merle offspring tend to not have the excessive white that generally causes the impairments because the pigmentation over the eyes and ears is correct.

That being said, there are always accidents people have or aren't knowledgeable enough to prevent it. Then there are the countless breeders that knowingly practice this regularly and it's just wrong. This also doesn't seem to be the right place to attack specific breeders, or we would really have some arguments going...talk with them directly if you feel that you actually have a shot in changing their mind. But don't count on it :/

Just don't support those litters and share the knowledge.

@DogKisses, that Red Sable male is the sire of my pup. My male is a black merle with minimum white and yes he is young, but he is the most healthy pup most people (including vets & other trainers) have seen. My breeder does not breed for color alone- but for drives and personality types- the things most breeders should be considering. Anyone that knows and respects the breed- whether in AUS, the US, etc. should be aware it is a breed that doesn't really even have a standard for looks- can be long coated, short, pricked ears, floppy...and most prefer merles. Hence why merles are popping up in breeds such as Pitts & Chihuahuas... it's just an unusual and attractive color. But health and temperament really should always be first. It really isn't rocket science!
 

Romy

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Not sure what the fuss is here. I don't know enough about this breeder to comment (I honestly never researched any in the US until recently) but when it comes to Koolies I've seen some interesting...types.

I'm not sure what the sable merle example is supposed to be... wrong color? It is not the result of a double merle breeding which is what is being discussed here.
Maybe I totally misinterpreted the tone of that post, but she seemed upset that the solid red was used in breeding too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, because it made no sense. Especially in a thread where koolie breeders are being criticized for not breeding to solids. :confused:

*disclaimer! there are two babies at my house so I run on very little sleep!* :eek:

ETA: dur. it's merle too. But it's not double merle so why is that evil? :confused: Is this a case of not liking the dog's phenotype outside of color?
 

SaraB

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Maybe I totally misinterpreted the tone of that post, but she seemed upset that the solid red was used in breeding too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, because it made no sense. Especially in a thread where koolie breeders are being criticized for not breeding to solids. :confused:

*disclaimer! there are two babies at my house so I run on very little sleep!* :eek:

ETA: dur. it's merle too. But it's not double merle so why is that evil? :confused: Is this a case of not liking the dog's phenotype outside of color?
The point was that it's not a typical color found in Koolies, being bred by a Koolie breeder who breeds other atypical colors. Not at all that a solid is being bred to a merle. Two separate points that just happen to be in the same thread.
 

Romy

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The point was that it's not a typical color found in Koolies, being bred by a Koolie breeder who breeds other atypical colors. Not at all that a solid is being bred to a merle. Two separate points that just happen to be in the same thread.
Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Fran101

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I have no issue with merle in itself.
One of the parents of my future pup is a red merle :) she is a lovely healthy girl.
but I certainly wouldn't have chosen the breeder if the sire was a merle as well.. or if choosing the sire/dam had much of ANYTHING to do with them being merle.
Honestly, I doubt I'd be comfortable with any aussie breeder who ever bred merle x merle on purpose for any reason
Same goes for breeding OFA weak dogs or dogs with iffy temperaments

It may be a risk they want to take.
but it sure isn't one I want to.
 

Emily

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or if choosing the sire/dam had much of ANYTHING to do with them being merle.
I have little to add to this convo, but I found this quote interesting, because many Koolie breeders would concur... and still use two merles.

While most breeders have begun including solids in their breedings programs, the reality is that the population of solids in Koolies so small that breeding based on whether dogs are merle or solid could cripple the breed's gene pool. Many Koolie breeders who do merleXmerle and it has nothing to do with color, just reproducing the quality of dog they want.

It's a tough situation to be in, when most of the breed is merle. Do you breed two high quality dogs together, regardless of color? Do you settle for a lesser solid or one from unideal lineage? Do you spend years waiting for the right solid to pop up from the right litter?

This issues are little more complex in what has always been a "merle breed" until recently than in breeds like Aussies, BC's, Cardis... etc.
 

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