cropped ears

[doberkim]

Ok, for the record - it has nothing to do with money. Some vets simply won't do it - many are not trained, and doing it WITHOUT proper training on how to do a GOOD crop is negligent since it's the dogs EARS we are talking about.

IT costs logistically no more than any other pediatric surgery - most people pay about 200-300 bucks, which is in line for sugery, pain management, etc for a young animal.

In terms of cropping after care, if done well, handled properly post-operatively, and the owner is trained in how to handle things - it is not painful for weeks, and the ears heal quickly - most dogs are up and playing HOURS after being cropped, they do not care. Spay's are invasive, they require an open abdomen and the organs ARE manipulated, it's not as simple as a neuter. It is simply not equivalent or comparable to a crop.

I don't crop, not because I do not believe in it (I believe in the right to CHOOSE), I don't do it because I was never properly trained in how to do a GOOD crop, and there are vets out there (a few near me) that do it WONDERFULLY, so I will refer to them. I feel that in America, when a veterinary professional uses their skill to perform surgery on a dog, even if elective, thepain has been handled and it is this person's decision to have their dogs ears cropped, etc.

-your resident vet on the board

 

[Dizzy]

Ok, for the record - it has nothing to do with money.

most people pay about 200-300 bucks, which is in line for sugery, pain management, etc for a young animal.

I can't see how money isn't a factor in a lot of vet's cases.. I mean, multipy 200-300 by just ONE litter of pups, and that's a nice earner right there.

Like you say, a lot of vets won't do it, why is that?

Some do, and I am pretty sure money is a great decider in the cropping argument for them...

 

[borgorn]

How is it less of an ordeal?

For starters, male castration is over and done with in a few minutes, and is non invasive and heals quickly.

Female spaying - yes, more invasive, but once it's done, it's done. Healing for a week or so and then back to normal.

Cropping - general anesthetic, in terms of how far the scalpel has to travel - a huge area of cut, a huge area to scar.

Then WEEKS of aftercare, it is a part of the body that will be knocked often. Taped up - risk of infections..

It just isn't even comparable.. Like going in for gall stones, or breast implants.

Everytime I go to log off I get a rediculous reply. Ask 100 guys if they would rather have ear surgey or their ____ cut off. If you are a woman then I don't exspect you to understand. It is mean. The ears heal and they don't even notice. In the long run it probably feels better for the dog. They can hear more and judge where it's coming from better. But hacking off the testicles they are gone and won't come back. The dog's hormones and chemistry is knocked out of wack. They will become another dog entirely. Is that fair? I think docked ears look great and have benifits. It is like circumsizing , a person never even remembers it.

 

[Ashlea]

borgorn. Have you ever been to South Africa, if not, keep your comments to yourself. Shows how ignorant you really are. I have always been told not to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, I have said my peace with you.

 

[Dizzy]

Everytime I go to log off I get a rediculous reply. Ask 100 guys if they would rather have ear surgey or their ____ cut off. If you are a woman then I don't exspect you to understand. It is mean. The ears heal and they don't even notice. In the long run it probably feels better for the dog. They can hear more and judge where it's coming from better. But hacking off the testicles they are gone and won't come back. The dog's hormones and chemistry is knocked out of wack. They will become another dog entirely. Is that fair? I think docked ears look great and have benifits. It is like circumsizing , a person never even remembers it.

Ridiculous?

You really have a knack for debate don't you.

How about i just say this instead.

You. Are. Wrong

Seeing as this seems to be the level you want to go to.

What is it with men and testicles?

Tell me this, would rather have a sex drive and NEVER be able to have an orgasm or be with a woman, or have no sex drive at all?

 

[Ashlea]

ROFLOL Dizzy! I think men place far to much stead in those wrinkly little buggers! Really! Like any dogs cares that his tesicles are gone when he has had them removed before he was sexually matured! PALEESE!

And who cares if the boy doesn't remember the circumcision. It is still bloody ugly. Elephants trunk! You wish! LOL
Well anyway, an elephants trunck is a darn side neater and more attractive than a scarred little one eyed bullfrog!

 

[Bailey+Ralph]

Everytime I go to log off I get a rediculous reply. Ask 100 guys if they would rather have ear surgey or their ____ cut off.

Yeah but as a man (not directed at all the men here) you would say that b/c most men don't care about going around "sowing thier wild oats" and leaving a woman to deal with raising the child alone!!

Here is a good example of why Spay/Neuter is a good thing:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30231

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Out of everything I said your going to comment on that? Avoid the issue huh?

Not at all, I just learn when to stop because some people are so ignorant and rude. At least other people, such as Red and Doc were trying to EDUCATE others instead of cram their opinions down others throats and condemn them for having a differing opinion... such as yourself. You are just plain argumentative and not really trying to educate... you just think you're right and that's it. And well, I am not going to change my opinion, so there is no point in continuing with you, others, yes, becuase I would like to be educated on the matter...



I find it even MORE interesting that Doc is the only one that responded to my post about dogs that are "requried" to be cropped, for example Doberman's are the only ones that are.... you don't see labs and maltese and others with cropped ears due to "medical reasons"....hmm, I wonder why?!



Doberkim....why aren't all vets trained in cropping? Is it a personal choice of theirs? Just curious...

 

[Doberluv]

It's like a specialty, a real skill in artistry. Not every vet has learned or thinks it's important for him to learn, as he can refer the patient to someone else. It's like, not all doctors perform heart surgery. There are specialties. Cropping is a specialty.

It really isn't a big deal as far as pain. When my Doberman was done, while still with his breeder at about 7 weeks, she said, the very next day all the pups were playing and they play rough. They'd bash into eachother, paw, mouth and no one yelped or seemed bothered at all. They have these little styrofoam cups on top of their heads to hold the ears up and it kind of protects them too. When I went to pick him up at 9 weeks, sure enough, rough and tumble play, biting eachother, pawing, clawing....LOL. Didn't hear anyone cry out in pain. The ears were just about healed.

When she would wipe them with a cotton ball, instead of pulling away, as they would if there were pain, they leaned into the cotton ball because they were already starting to itch a little bit. Within about 7-10 days, they were all but healed, a few little scabs.

This is cartilege and there just isn't as much pain in cartilege and it heals quickly. The vet gave her pain pills, just in case, but she said that they really didn't appear to be in any pain so she didn't give them to the pups.

By the time I got my pup at 9 weeks of age, the scabs were just about gone, maybe just a teensy bit here and there. I continued cleaning them and putting a little Neosporin on them. I removed the sutures myself.

My breeder demonstrated how to post them plus I studied a wonderful explanation and followed instructions off of a website about posting Dobes' ears. Lyric learned to hold still for the couple of minutes it took and every 4 days, I cleaned his ears and put clean tampons and paper tape in. As long as they're kept clean and dry, there's very little chance of infection. I did it correctly and they turned out great.

He got so use to having his posts changed that often he'd be asleep on the couch and he'd basically just sleep through it. No pain, no bother. He also learned discipline to hold still, to be very trusting and tolerant of anything I have to do to him, like the few times I had to express his anal glands. Now, if that isn't fun.

A little pain is good for us all....teaches us tolerance and how to be brave, teaches us how to deal with negative things. This is not some horrendous, excrutiating thing. This is more like perhaps some discomfort for a day or two. This is not abusive or mutilating, as so many seem to say and want to shove down peoples' throats.

There is and has been a reason for cropping ears. It is, in the case of a Doberman the way they were meant to be when they were developed and for a reason. This is the owners' right to have this done and it should remain so. No government should have anything to do with this. This is not a political issue. They are full of people who know nothing about it and they should just stay out of it.

I wish people would pay more attention to stopping puppy mills and abuse; dogs who are starved, beated, left out in the sweltering heat with no water, dogs left in cars, dogs chained up 24/7. There are so many dogs and puppies out there with horrible lives and vicious people who are the only ones they can depend on and look what they get......serious betrayal. How can anyone compare ear cropping to anything close to abuse.

I love my dog with all my heart. His breeder loved her dogs and every puppy as though they were her little children. He is treated so gently and kindly. He is given a great life with lots of fun, exercsie and good food. I find it really insulting that anyone equates this procedure with unkindness.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

It's like a specialty, a real skill in artistry. Not every vet has learned or thinks it's important for him to learn, as he can refer the patient to someone else. It's like, not all doctors perform heart surgery. There are specialties. Cropping is a specialty.

Thanks, Doberluv.

 

[Boxerowner]

Although I don't feel spaying/neutering or ear cropping cruel. I feel that neutering a pet is more invasive I mean you are actually opening a dog up and letting infection in. Neutering/spaying IMO is just because ppl are lazy and don't want to deal with it. Spaying/neutering is just as much as cosmetic as ear cropping as it suits you and your life style. I hope I make sense.

Edit Either procedures are really unnecessary if ppl would keep more control on their pets. PPL say that they don't have emotions like Humans how do you know? does your dog tell you that? All dogs are different some seem to care that they are missing something and some don't. We humans just like to control everything even nature.

 

[Ashlea]

No it most certainly does not make sense. It is a very different thing altogether. A dog is spuetered to prevent cancer, unwanted litters and other nasty dieseases. Next time you make such a statement go and spend some time down at your local shelter and then rethink your comment.

 

[Bailey+Ralph]

Spaying/neutering is just as much as cosmetic as ear cropping as it suits you and your life style. I hope I make sense.

Thats like comparing a "Boob job" (for show) to a Kidney removal (not visable)........I can see your theory but Cosmetic is for show.......Like wearing Cosmetics (Make-up).

 

[Boxerowner]

What ever I have spent plenty of time at my local shelters. I spay/neuter like I said I don't feel it to be cruel. OK so don't start arguing with me.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Spaying/neutering is just as much as cosmetic as ear cropping as it suits you and your life style. I hope I make sense.

Edit Either procedures are really unnecessary if ppl would keep more control on their pets.

I can not believe that people would stoop so low as this...

Cropping is also unnecessary.. if people would just take the time out of their day to clean their dogs ears....

 

[Boxerowner]

I will continue to crop and dock as long as its legal! Just as I plan on spaying and of my bitches that are not shown or not planing to breed. I think that ppl have just taken this cropping/docking thing too far and just need to get over it and go after ppl that actually beat, starve, and just neglect their pets.

 

[Bailey+Ralph]

I will continue to crop and dock as long as its legal! Just as I plan on spaying and of my bitches that are not shown or not planing to breed. I think that ppl have just taken this cropping/docking thing too far and just need to get over it and go after ppl that actually beat, starve, and just neglect their pets.

No-one is "Going after" anyone.
It is a simple discussion!

 

[Buddy'sParents]

No-one is "Going after" anyone.
It is a simple discussion!

At least we'd like to think so.

Moving on....

I do find it amazing at what lengths dog owners will go to make themselves feel better about the choices they make for their pets...I see nothing wrong with a working dog with a docked tail (that makes sense, even to me, a docking is much more understandable than an injury that could cost a working dogs life) nor do I see anything wrong with cropping a dogs ears due to medical reasons (I just find it odd that these dogs are only those that have a history of being cropped.. go figure!).

 

[lastkid]

noone commented on the amount of MONEY vets make out of this operation. And why, perhaps, some still want to do it... correlation? I think so.

I'm not a vet, but I'm sure they make far more money a year on equally elective procedures, like teeth cleaning and spay/neuters. If it were truely about MONEY - all vets would do it, and would actively encourage all of their doggy patients to have their ears done. Which is ridiculous - every vet I've ever met has patient health as their top priority, not how much money they're going to rake in on office visits and drugs and surgeries.

A dog is spuetered to prevent cancer, unwanted litters and other nasty dieseases. Next time you make such a statement go and spend some time down at your local shelter and then rethink your comment.

Preventing cancer that MIGHT happen. Yes, it does happen, but you can't look at a dog at 6 months and say, "Yep, you're going to get mammary cancer, let's get rid of your uterus and ovaries!", yet that's exactly what we do. Preventing unwanted litters is an owner responsibility problem, not just the fault of the ovaries and testes. I know plenty of people with intact males and females who have never had unwanted litters.

My animals have always been speutered, because I prefer them that way. I don't want to deal with heats, etc. I actively want more animals to be altered, because I've been in high kill (gas chamber) shelters, I've been involved in rescue work since I was 8, all of my animals are rescues. But altering your dog is still your choice, as it is to crop/dock.

There is and has been a reason for cropping ears. It is, in the case of a Doberman the way they were meant to be when they were developed and for a reason. This is the owners' right to have this done and it should remain so. No government should have anything to do with this. This is not a political issue. They are full of people who know nothing about it and they should just stay out of it.

I wish people would pay more attention to stopping puppy mills and abuse; dogs who are starved, beated, left out in the sweltering heat with no water, dogs left in cars, dogs chained up 24/7. There are so many dogs and puppies out there with horrible lives and vicious people who are the only ones they can depend on and look what they get......serious betrayal. How can anyone compare ear cropping to anything close to abuse.

Excellent, excellent post, doberluv.

 

[Dizzy]

Fair enough. Time should be take to address other types of abuse too.

But how can we possibly expect to wipe out puppy mills, etc, when practices such as ear cropping continue in vets and back street "surgeries" throughout the states?

All I hear is

"when done responsibly.."

"When given proper after care.."

The thing is, I reckon for every one good breeder there are 5 bad ones, and what happens to those pups ears?

If you wipe it out, there will be no mutilation, no infections, no pain.

Animal welfare comes as a whole package. Including combating cosmetic surgery in animals.

WHY do you think it has been banned in SO many countries? Countries with as much "freedom" as the US?