Ok I haven't read through the whole thread but I have a question. So correctional training would be like teaching them to heel by using a training color and giving it a light snap if they go to far away and then praising them when they get back? I haven't done it so don't jump on my back. I just got my dog and got tons of books and every single one of them says to use that method and that simple food and treats wont work because if they see a cat that is going to be more appealing than a treat. These books include AKC club books and Howell and others. I was planning on using it because it doesn't actually hurt it just gives them a shock. So I shouldn't? Please just answer my question and give me good advice, don't say thats dumb or anything.
Correctional Training
- Thread starter Loviedovie
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Well, I don't train using collar corrections. I train dogs with the use of motivation and reward and don't use any aversives (collar yanks, scoldings, anger, scruffs, no pain or discomfort, no fear, no intimidation) when training obedience or agility or tricks. It's luring at first, enticement, games, motivation and lots of reward or nothing. If a dog doesn't hold a stay, he is not punished. (I scold myself...."Gee, I just asked him to hold it longer than he is able. I'll go back where he was successful, at 10 seconds and reinforce that some more and then increase the duration a little bit more) There are reasons dogs don't give correct resonses and there are remedies which do not include aversives.
My Doberman has never chased a cat, but if you don't think a herd of deer, a single deer, squirrels and a dog on our property aren't enough of a test of a reliable recall, halt and drop, then maybe I better find a cat to try him out on. LOL.
I used a clicker in some of the tasks and it shaped up my Dog's heel in one session. I've used it for a lot of things....excellent. He now has a beautiful heel and is learning more and more fun stuff. No collar yanks for us. AND FUN!!! That's one of the biggest benefits of motivation/reward based methods. It's all fun for both dog and owner.
There's a problem with the authors of the books you've read which say a cat is going to be more appealing than a treat. You don't start out training a dog in the midst of a distraction like a cat. It's not fair IMO to punish a dog for being a dog and trying to do what works. Dogs are opportunists and scavangers and they're programmed to do what works. It's how they think. They're not being morally "bad" to chase a cat when you asked them to come. They're undertrained. You have to make the things you want him to do work for him. And you can.
Once the dog is in the habit of giving you correct responses, (because he's had a strong history of reinforcers) there's nothing more reliable than positive reinforcement training methods. Your dog trusts you explicitly and doesn't question what it is he's suppose to do. Research has shown us that the dog works harder, has more incentive, thinks more..... for a reward than he does to avoid punishment. When people are negative about that method of training, they're usually leaving big chunks of information out. They don't understand it and are taking little pieces of information and then making an argument over it without having all the facts straight. I have trained using more compulsive methods than I do now and I have much better success and a better bond with my dogs than ever before. I'm still learning all the time too.
I'd recommend you read a few good books. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, The Power of Positive Training, Pat Miller. There are others but if you read Culture Clash, to start out with, you'll see how science has shown how dogs think and learn. It sure has changed my life, my relationship with my dogs, my dogs learning ability, my understanding of them all for the better. I only wish I had read it sooner.
I'd recommend that you go through this thread and find Dr2little's about her training class....how her clients' puppies are coming along and how she trains.
Hope this helps.
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/index.htm
here's another one I like:
http://www.barry.eaton.clara.net/pack_leader.htm
This is very interesting and how clicker training is branching into human training. Neat!
http://www.apdt.com/about/prog/scholarships/win/2005_winner_03.aspx
My Doberman has never chased a cat, but if you don't think a herd of deer, a single deer, squirrels and a dog on our property aren't enough of a test of a reliable recall, halt and drop, then maybe I better find a cat to try him out on. LOL.
I used a clicker in some of the tasks and it shaped up my Dog's heel in one session. I've used it for a lot of things....excellent. He now has a beautiful heel and is learning more and more fun stuff. No collar yanks for us. AND FUN!!! That's one of the biggest benefits of motivation/reward based methods. It's all fun for both dog and owner.
There's a problem with the authors of the books you've read which say a cat is going to be more appealing than a treat. You don't start out training a dog in the midst of a distraction like a cat. It's not fair IMO to punish a dog for being a dog and trying to do what works. Dogs are opportunists and scavangers and they're programmed to do what works. It's how they think. They're not being morally "bad" to chase a cat when you asked them to come. They're undertrained. You have to make the things you want him to do work for him. And you can.
Once the dog is in the habit of giving you correct responses, (because he's had a strong history of reinforcers) there's nothing more reliable than positive reinforcement training methods. Your dog trusts you explicitly and doesn't question what it is he's suppose to do. Research has shown us that the dog works harder, has more incentive, thinks more..... for a reward than he does to avoid punishment. When people are negative about that method of training, they're usually leaving big chunks of information out. They don't understand it and are taking little pieces of information and then making an argument over it without having all the facts straight. I have trained using more compulsive methods than I do now and I have much better success and a better bond with my dogs than ever before. I'm still learning all the time too.
I'd recommend you read a few good books. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, The Power of Positive Training, Pat Miller. There are others but if you read Culture Clash, to start out with, you'll see how science has shown how dogs think and learn. It sure has changed my life, my relationship with my dogs, my dogs learning ability, my understanding of them all for the better. I only wish I had read it sooner.
I'd recommend that you go through this thread and find Dr2little's about her training class....how her clients' puppies are coming along and how she trains.
Hope this helps.
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/index.htm
here's another one I like:
http://www.barry.eaton.clara.net/pack_leader.htm
This is very interesting and how clicker training is branching into human training. Neat!
http://www.apdt.com/about/prog/scholarships/win/2005_winner_03.aspx
Thanks I will check them out.
I know that you don't start with distractions and the book said that too. I will read through those books. But say I work hard at the positive methods (which I will) for a long time and she just doesn't seem to listen. Should I go to a training collar?
I hope I can find the books, do you think they have them at Petsmart? They generally have a good selection or will I have to go to a bookstare?
I know that you don't start with distractions and the book said that too. I will read through those books. But say I work hard at the positive methods (which I will) for a long time and she just doesn't seem to listen. Should I go to a training collar?
I hope I can find the books, do you think they have them at Petsmart? They generally have a good selection or will I have to go to a bookstare?
If you read Culture Clash and Don't Shoot the Dog, you'll find out why your dog doesn't "listen" and how to get her to. This method is used all over and with all kinds of animals. It takes some study, but it's well worth it. I don't know if they have them at Petsmart, but you can order them from any book store or go online.
Kudos to you for looking into it. Some people just go blindly ahead without researching anything and often then, have trouble with their dogs.
Redyre Rottweilers (a member here) has posted some neat things on attention training (I think) and some other useful help...recall training, I forget what all. You can do a search on this forum too.
Those links are very imformative too....to get you started.
Startling a dog into attention isn't as effective as teaching him because he wants to earn a reward. There are ways to make your reward better for your dog and all this is explained in those books. Having a dog comply in order to avoid something unpleasant is not as effective as having a dog comply in order to earn a reward which also makes for a more happy and lively dog. Too much punishment and a dog tends to tone down, shut down and lose interest in learning.
Kudos to you for looking into it. Some people just go blindly ahead without researching anything and often then, have trouble with their dogs.
Redyre Rottweilers (a member here) has posted some neat things on attention training (I think) and some other useful help...recall training, I forget what all. You can do a search on this forum too.
Those links are very imformative too....to get you started.
Startling a dog into attention isn't as effective as teaching him because he wants to earn a reward. There are ways to make your reward better for your dog and all this is explained in those books. Having a dog comply in order to avoid something unpleasant is not as effective as having a dog comply in order to earn a reward which also makes for a more happy and lively dog. Too much punishment and a dog tends to tone down, shut down and lose interest in learning.
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Honestly, I think it depends on the situation. If the dog is dragging you down the street despite your best efforts and there's a possiblity he could pull you over, or pull the leash right out of your hand then I think it's perfectly reasonable to use a training collar (or even a head halter) provided you use it correctly and fairly. Safety for both the dog and owner have to come first.
Using a training collar does not have to equal harsh corrections and you can still provide plenty of positive reinforcement when he does the right thing. It doesn't have to be one or the other, unless you want it to be.
A quick pop and release won't scar an average, well adjusted dog for life. It's just another way to provide information to the dog. Of course I'd only reccommend this AFTER prior training on loose leash walking has occured. It wouldn't be fair to start correcting right off the bat without first teaching the dog what you expect.
So, start with the least amount of adversive possible. Then if what you're doing isn't working try something else. Now if you're just trying to get a perfect heel for the OB ring then no I don't think a training collar is needed, but that's just me. Obedience training for titles is fun and OPTIONAL, I don't need to train it for the safety of my dogs, I choose to train it for pleasure.
Using a training collar does not have to equal harsh corrections and you can still provide plenty of positive reinforcement when he does the right thing. It doesn't have to be one or the other, unless you want it to be.
A quick pop and release won't scar an average, well adjusted dog for life. It's just another way to provide information to the dog. Of course I'd only reccommend this AFTER prior training on loose leash walking has occured. It wouldn't be fair to start correcting right off the bat without first teaching the dog what you expect.
So, start with the least amount of adversive possible. Then if what you're doing isn't working try something else. Now if you're just trying to get a perfect heel for the OB ring then no I don't think a training collar is needed, but that's just me. Obedience training for titles is fun and OPTIONAL, I don't need to train it for the safety of my dogs, I choose to train it for pleasure.
Okay, since nobody bit my head off for my last post, I'll go ahead with a second. I have a lot of thoughts/responses to some of the stuff posted earlier, but really want to ask some questions first. I don't want to come across as snarky or trying to incite a riot, so I'll keep my thoughts for later.
As I made clear in my last post, I use zero physical corrections with my dog, and almost no verbal corrections as well. To be honest, I've really never been exposed to people who used "correctional training" before. I kind of thought that it had disappeared as the positive training was catching on. Clearly, I was wrong. My thought with training and caring for my dog (and my horse) is to take in as much information as I possibly can, and then decide what works for us. So, please - those of you who are advocating using corrections, answer a few questions for me. I'm going to be respectful in asking them, and I would appreciate the same from your responses.
1) What sort of corrections do you use? Pretty much the only one I've seen mentioned on this thread is a "gentle tug on the collar". I assume there are other corrections you use when the dog is off leash.
2) Do you work with your dogs in buckle collars, chokes, or prongs? Does it vary from behavior to behavior, or from dog to dog? If you use a training collar, does the dog wear it 24/7? Just during waking hours? Or just when you are training?
3) I'm not going to take the time to go back and look for the quote now, but I'm fairly sure that one of you stated that the corrections are used once a dog knows a behavior, to teach them that they have no choice but to obey. You are "proofing" the behavior. I apologize if I misquoted. So, I'll use an example to get to my question. Let's say you have dog who is fairly solid in their recall. He responds beautifully, even under medium distractions. You are outside with the dog when he takes off after a squirrel, and ignores your command until he has treed the squirrel. I assume this is a situation where you use a correction? What would you do?
4) Following that same example, you have now corrected (I assume) the dog for ignoring you recall command. So, you have taught him that he doesn't have the choice to ignore the command. Have you now proofed the recall? If the dog knows he has no choice, do you now consider your dog to have a 100% recall? Or do you have to continue teaching the dog that it has no choice? Do you (and by you, I mean whoever is taking the time to answer this
) have a 100% recall on your dogs?
5) Do you find that carries over to other behaviors? If you have taught the dog it has no choice but to respond to your recall command, does it now realize that it has no choice but to respond to any command that you give? Or do you have to proof each behavior separately?
Thanks to anyone who actually read all that, and takes the time to respond thoughtfully and respectfully. I am really interested in the responses since, as I said, this is a side of training I have not really been exposed to.
As I made clear in my last post, I use zero physical corrections with my dog, and almost no verbal corrections as well. To be honest, I've really never been exposed to people who used "correctional training" before. I kind of thought that it had disappeared as the positive training was catching on. Clearly, I was wrong. My thought with training and caring for my dog (and my horse) is to take in as much information as I possibly can, and then decide what works for us. So, please - those of you who are advocating using corrections, answer a few questions for me. I'm going to be respectful in asking them, and I would appreciate the same from your responses.
1) What sort of corrections do you use? Pretty much the only one I've seen mentioned on this thread is a "gentle tug on the collar". I assume there are other corrections you use when the dog is off leash.
2) Do you work with your dogs in buckle collars, chokes, or prongs? Does it vary from behavior to behavior, or from dog to dog? If you use a training collar, does the dog wear it 24/7? Just during waking hours? Or just when you are training?
3) I'm not going to take the time to go back and look for the quote now, but I'm fairly sure that one of you stated that the corrections are used once a dog knows a behavior, to teach them that they have no choice but to obey. You are "proofing" the behavior. I apologize if I misquoted. So, I'll use an example to get to my question. Let's say you have dog who is fairly solid in their recall. He responds beautifully, even under medium distractions. You are outside with the dog when he takes off after a squirrel, and ignores your command until he has treed the squirrel. I assume this is a situation where you use a correction? What would you do?
4) Following that same example, you have now corrected (I assume) the dog for ignoring you recall command. So, you have taught him that he doesn't have the choice to ignore the command. Have you now proofed the recall? If the dog knows he has no choice, do you now consider your dog to have a 100% recall? Or do you have to continue teaching the dog that it has no choice? Do you (and by you, I mean whoever is taking the time to answer this
) have a 100% recall on your dogs?5) Do you find that carries over to other behaviors? If you have taught the dog it has no choice but to respond to your recall command, does it now realize that it has no choice but to respond to any command that you give? Or do you have to proof each behavior separately?
Thanks to anyone who actually read all that, and takes the time to respond thoughtfully and respectfully. I am really interested in the responses since, as I said, this is a side of training I have not really been exposed to.
Ditto..some (not all) who use physical correction on this forum are under the false assumption that I think I know it all. No one knows it all though I am very passionate about kindness and gentle methods because it's what I do every day....and I make no appologies for it.
I learn from everyone, clients, new dog owners, other trainers, forum members...and now I can add you to the list. I too look forward to sharing ideas with you Boston. Welcome!
I learn from everyone, clients, new dog owners, other trainers, forum members...and now I can add you to the list. I too look forward to sharing ideas with you Boston. Welcome!
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There are plenty of actions that I consider a 'correction" and have nothing to do with a leash and collar. I use verbal corrections (ah ah), a quick hand clap to get the dog's attention, a time out in the crate if needed, and yes leash corrections if needed. I correct with a quick pop and release on the collar, it's no more than an attention getter to the dog, like saying "hey, pay attention. This isn't optional." I never yank on the collar, don't need to.
My own dogs wear flat buckle collars. Bear the puppy has never worn anything else, same for one of the Collies. My other Collie boy did use a prong when he was younger to help curb some nonsense yapping and lunging during class, but that was years ago and I haven't needed to use one with him since so he's on a flat collar too at all times.
For client dogs, it really depends on the dog and situation. I always start out on a flat collar and %80 of the time that's all that's needed. I can work some magic with just a flat if I do say so myself but there are dogs that need a prong, or a head halter and those are tools that I'm willing to use to help the client and dog more effectivly.
I wouldn't have the dog off leash untill he's been trained around HIGH distractions and proven reliable. Any sooner and I'm asking for trouble. I want to train using a loooong line around squirrels, other dogs, strangers, cats, etc. first to minimize the chance that the dog would assume he can chase said squirrel and not respond to my command.
However, of course this can happen despite the best training. Dogs are dogs, not robots. In this situation I'd go after the dog, and bring him back to the spot I called him from, then run through a bunch of obedience drills. Then go back and continue training on leash for a much longer time before he'd ever be off leash again. I can't correct him for not comming, my opprotunity for that was long gone. I need to correct within three seconds of him doing the behavior for it to have any effect. So going over to him and correcting him after he treed the squirrel would do nothing to teach him obey me.
Since I wouldn't correct in this situation. Execpt by smacking myself over the head with a newspaper for letting the dog off leash before he was ready, I won't answer the first part. Do my own dogs have reliable recalls? Yes. Are they %100? Of course not. No dog is. The very fact that they are living thinking beings makes it impossible for them to ever be %100. However I can say that my dogs are about as close to having a %100 recall as you can get.
I've called them off deers, squirrels, other dogs, stray cats and I'd bet my entire bank account right now and I could call them off any distraction this very moment. Bear the puppy was never collar corrected for not obeying a recall, because never disobeyed. He was trained purely with rewards and he's as perfect as they come even around distractions, but I credit most of that to his personality than to the method. He wants nothing more than to please me and nothing is more important to him than that, so purely positve was perfectly suited to him. My other two collies were trained with a mixture of positive and corrections and they too are about as close to perfect as possible. All three are very happy to come when called.
Dogs don't generalize very well. You have to train and proof each command seperatly to be effective.
Again, training this way works for me. I'm happy with the results I see. It doesn't bother me if someone else prefers to train differently. Different strokes and all that...
ETA: Holy cow I typed a novel post...guess I got carried away! LOL
My own dogs wear flat buckle collars. Bear the puppy has never worn anything else, same for one of the Collies. My other Collie boy did use a prong when he was younger to help curb some nonsense yapping and lunging during class, but that was years ago and I haven't needed to use one with him since so he's on a flat collar too at all times.
For client dogs, it really depends on the dog and situation. I always start out on a flat collar and %80 of the time that's all that's needed. I can work some magic with just a flat if I do say so myself
but there are dogs that need a prong, or a head halter and those are tools that I'm willing to use to help the client and dog more effectivly. I wouldn't have the dog off leash untill he's been trained around HIGH distractions and proven reliable. Any sooner and I'm asking for trouble. I want to train using a loooong line around squirrels, other dogs, strangers, cats, etc. first to minimize the chance that the dog would assume he can chase said squirrel and not respond to my command.
However, of course this can happen despite the best training. Dogs are dogs, not robots. In this situation I'd go after the dog, and bring him back to the spot I called him from, then run through a bunch of obedience drills. Then go back and continue training on leash for a much longer time before he'd ever be off leash again. I can't correct him for not comming, my opprotunity for that was long gone. I need to correct within three seconds of him doing the behavior for it to have any effect. So going over to him and correcting him after he treed the squirrel would do nothing to teach him obey me.
Since I wouldn't correct in this situation. Execpt by smacking myself over the head with a newspaper for letting the dog off leash before he was ready, I won't answer the first part. Do my own dogs have reliable recalls? Yes. Are they %100? Of course not. No dog is. The very fact that they are living thinking beings makes it impossible for them to ever be %100. However I can say that my dogs are about as close to having a %100 recall as you can get.
I've called them off deers, squirrels, other dogs, stray cats and I'd bet my entire bank account right now and I could call them off any distraction this very moment. Bear the puppy was never collar corrected for not obeying a recall, because never disobeyed. He was trained purely with rewards and he's as perfect as they come even around distractions, but I credit most of that to his personality than to the method. He wants nothing more than to please me and nothing is more important to him than that, so purely positve was perfectly suited to him. My other two collies were trained with a mixture of positive and corrections and they too are about as close to perfect as possible. All three are very happy to come when called.
Dogs don't generalize very well. You have to train and proof each command seperatly to be effective.
Again, training this way works for me. I'm happy with the results I see. It doesn't bother me if someone else prefers to train differently. Different strokes and all that...
ETA: Holy cow I typed a novel post...guess I got carried away! LOL
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Doberluv and dr2little - Thank you! I admit, I tend to be hesitant about posting on forums, as I've been on some very not-nice horse boards. So far, I've had all positive experiences here, and am getting a bit braver I do tend to seek out posts from both of you, since you seem to work with the same methods that I am comfortable with.
Silverpawz - Thank you for such a well-written response. This is such an emotionally charged topic for so many people, that it is hard to find clear answers such as yours. You certainly don't come across as the "hang the dog by a choke chain until it submits" type of correctional trainer; I admit that I tend to compartmentalize trainers into two groups. There is certainly a middle ground there, and I'm glad that you gave me a glimpse of it. You are right that everyone has to do what works for them and, more importantly, what works for their dog. I may not choose to use the same methods as you, but if you are producing happy, healthy, good citizens, than good for you!
I'd still love to hear from others, as well.
I do tend to seek out posts from both of you, since you seem to work with the same methods that I am comfortable with.Silverpawz - Thank you for such a well-written response. This is such an emotionally charged topic for so many people, that it is hard to find clear answers such as yours. You certainly don't come across as the "hang the dog by a choke chain until it submits" type of correctional trainer; I admit that I tend to compartmentalize trainers into two groups. There is certainly a middle ground there, and I'm glad that you gave me a glimpse of it. You are right that everyone has to do what works for them and, more importantly, what works for their dog. I may not choose to use the same methods as you, but if you are producing happy, healthy, good citizens, than good for you!
I'd still love to hear from others, as well.
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Ann, welcome to the "have to type a novel for a response" group! I'm always wordy .. *L*
Just a few comments again overall ..
First, stags14 - you seem very aggressive. Perhaps we need to set up some desensitization exercises for you - or would you prefer a sharp pop on the leash?
I'm just surprised at how you are so against anything a couple of people post .. you come across as someone very angry that anyone would advocate purely positive training. According to your profile you just joined this forum, but you seem to have a personal vendetta against some that are here. What gives with that?
About the comments on a mother dog not using rewards - that's just not true. There are ALL sorts of rewards. To a puppy, cuddling and licking and feeding are certainly rewarding, and a mother dog supplies all of that (along with warmth and a feeling of safety). Corrections are few and far between with a dam - yes, a quick correction happens once in awhile but given the amount of time a pup has with its dam, the corrections are a very tiny part of the interactions. So to use the mother dog as an excuse for using corrections on your dog just doesn't hold true.
The people who train using all or mostly positive reinforcement tend to be very passionate about what they do. Maybe it comes across as condescending or even accusatory to those who advocate the use of corrections. In all honesty, I will say straight out that I feel I am a better trainer than someone who has to use a corrective collar and a lot of corrections in order to train. If a behavior can be trained without corrections as well as or better than it can WITH corrections, why would we use corrections? Because we're lazy, that's why.
I'm a MUCH better trainer now than I was back when I used a lot of corrections. I still have a lot to learn - and every single dog I work with is my teacher. I take the time to observe and understand what they're doing and why (as much as I can) and I learn from that. We all should be doing that.
Yes, as I've said before (and will again) - there ARE some things that may need a consequence. I've run into this with one of my chows and I have gone to aversives in order to control/change a behavior. It wasn't what I wanted to do. I spent months researching and deciding what was the best course of action. Anyone who has trained a chow (or a spitz breed overall) can understand how tremendously independent they are .. *L* .. I thoroughly enjoy the challenge and do nearly all of my training in a positive way.
I have no doubt that positive training techniques will work with EVERY SINGLE DOG out there. I think that most of those posting in this thread use a lot of positives. What I would encourage people to take from all of this is that there are always positive methods that should be used first - corrections are not appropriate for training, and that if you are observant and work through behaviors you can almost always change or shape a behavior in the way you want it to be. That includes training rescue dogs. I've taken in several rescue dogs over the years and have successfully worked through most problems without having to use a lot of corrections. Part of it is managing them (I don't turn a new dog loose in the house to get into trouble - if they're doing behaviors in the house that I don't like, it's 100% MY fault for not watching them). Part of it is finding their motivators and using them appropriately. Corrections are just not part of my arsenal until farther down the line (if then).
So please go love your dogs .. treat them fairly and consistently .. and before you feel the need to use corrections (especially physical ones) think to yourself: "how could I have avoided this situation?". Most corrections people use are because the human side of the equation didn't set things up correctly.
Okay, off to work the dogs. I'm at the point where I can work all three chows off-leash outside! This is really neat .. it's not an easy breed to get consistency from.
Of course, if a moose wanders by all bets are off ... *L* ... I always check for moose before we go out!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Just a few comments again overall ..
First, stags14 - you seem very aggressive. Perhaps we need to set up some desensitization exercises for you - or would you prefer a sharp pop on the leash?
I'm just surprised at how you are so against anything a couple of people post .. you come across as someone very angry that anyone would advocate purely positive training. According to your profile you just joined this forum, but you seem to have a personal vendetta against some that are here. What gives with that?
About the comments on a mother dog not using rewards - that's just not true. There are ALL sorts of rewards. To a puppy, cuddling and licking and feeding are certainly rewarding, and a mother dog supplies all of that (along with warmth and a feeling of safety). Corrections are few and far between with a dam - yes, a quick correction happens once in awhile but given the amount of time a pup has with its dam, the corrections are a very tiny part of the interactions. So to use the mother dog as an excuse for using corrections on your dog just doesn't hold true.
The people who train using all or mostly positive reinforcement tend to be very passionate about what they do. Maybe it comes across as condescending or even accusatory to those who advocate the use of corrections. In all honesty, I will say straight out that I feel I am a better trainer than someone who has to use a corrective collar and a lot of corrections in order to train. If a behavior can be trained without corrections as well as or better than it can WITH corrections, why would we use corrections? Because we're lazy, that's why.
I'm a MUCH better trainer now than I was back when I used a lot of corrections. I still have a lot to learn - and every single dog I work with is my teacher. I take the time to observe and understand what they're doing and why (as much as I can) and I learn from that. We all should be doing that.
Yes, as I've said before (and will again) - there ARE some things that may need a consequence. I've run into this with one of my chows and I have gone to aversives in order to control/change a behavior. It wasn't what I wanted to do. I spent months researching and deciding what was the best course of action. Anyone who has trained a chow (or a spitz breed overall) can understand how tremendously independent they are .. *L* .. I thoroughly enjoy the challenge and do nearly all of my training in a positive way.
I have no doubt that positive training techniques will work with EVERY SINGLE DOG out there. I think that most of those posting in this thread use a lot of positives. What I would encourage people to take from all of this is that there are always positive methods that should be used first - corrections are not appropriate for training, and that if you are observant and work through behaviors you can almost always change or shape a behavior in the way you want it to be. That includes training rescue dogs. I've taken in several rescue dogs over the years and have successfully worked through most problems without having to use a lot of corrections. Part of it is managing them (I don't turn a new dog loose in the house to get into trouble - if they're doing behaviors in the house that I don't like, it's 100% MY fault for not watching them). Part of it is finding their motivators and using them appropriately. Corrections are just not part of my arsenal until farther down the line (if then).
So please go love your dogs .. treat them fairly and consistently .. and before you feel the need to use corrections (especially physical ones) think to yourself: "how could I have avoided this situation?". Most corrections people use are because the human side of the equation didn't set things up correctly.
Okay, off to work the dogs. I'm at the point where I can work all three chows off-leash outside! This is really neat .. it's not an easy breed to get consistency from.
Of course, if a moose wanders by all bets are off ... *L* ... I always check for moose before we go out!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
well, being tempted not to even reply since i am sick of being insultedby some of the pure positive posts - when i am FAR from a correction based trainer and use the clicker to train almost all base behaviors right now - i am offended that it is considered that i am lacking in common sense because i use correction - when i consider it hypocritical, since emily has not even asked when i would use a correction, though she has used them herself - nor has emily had to take in numerous adult dogs (think 4-8 years old), many with aggression issues, some with bite histories, etc. i have, and i have titled one of them, trained two of them in competitive obedience. im working an incredibly high drive working-type male doberman.- my 4th rescue dog - as my next competition dog. i ALSO have extensive training in animal behavior and such, if anyone else cares
im not ADVOCATING correction. i am saying that occassionally, a well placed correction is effective, warranted, and not the end of the world. therse a large difference between training purely with compulsion and corrections, and correcting a dog once in awhile for a warranted behavior.
what correction i use depends on what the problem has been, the level of training with a dog, what each dog can handle, and how serious the situation is. for mya, correction for her was "looking angry" at her. a sharp tone sent her running. for bowie, corrections were verbal or occassionally he would get the finger - poking him in the side/shoulder/hind end to get his attention if it wandered. rah has been used on a prong collar with leash corrections, which he didn't even flick an ear at. bowie was also worked on an e-collar for recalls.
rah also gets a lot of nasty things said to him sometimes, including this afternoon as i attempted not to vomit again (after being hospitalized earlier this week), and he walked out with my sock in his mouth. i believe the words i used were "strangle you and then feed you to the cats". good thing he doesnt speak english, huh?
except for the e-collar, which was used except for the first two training sessions, ONLY for off-leash/recall situations with bowie, bowie was never worked on a collar period for the last 3.5 years of his life (his competitive life). he competed on a flat collar, but never received a leash correction on it.
mya worked on a flat collar only - she wore a prong once and the correction was too harsh for her, so it was removed immediately. rah wears a flat collar for most basic obedience training, or no collar at all. when we train with his schutzhund trainer, he wears a prong collar. when out in public, he typically wears a martingale or his fursaver (prefer the fursaver) purely because he can slip a flat collar if determined. around the house he wears no collar at all.
so my collars depend on behavior to behavior - i will use the collar i need to get the results i want and need - most of the time it is independent of the collar and makes no difference, and i actively seek to train my dogs NOT to be collar-wise - i dont want what collar they wear to matter. rah is the only dog that gotten more than a few corrections, and in his first training session he literally only got two before he was spot-on. and he is an asshat, excuse my french. he is adolescent male doberman with oodles of drive he doesnt know where to place. and believe me when i say, i could toss this dog around and he wouldnt care - physical corrections mean little when the dogs favorite method of playing is to launch himself at people. his favorite playtime is me boxing with him, smacking him on the side, in the face, you name it. the dog has no physical sensitivity. most of the corrections he typically gets arent even "my" corrections - its when we work on LLW and heeling, that he hits the end of the leash with my spontaneous turns, just to get him in the working mode and attention on me. he typically is corrected much more for daily life behaviors (like stealing things) than anything obedience related, since right now we are working on drive, relationship, and good house manners - he needs all those things cultivated before he becomes my OTCH/MACH
i personally never correct a failure to recall - its the one behavior where i want the dog to ALWAYS look forward to come back to me, so i would never personally correct a missed recall. recalls are motivational behaviors. i have used the e-collar to proof a recall on a dog, but the dog was never corrected for NOT coming. thats not how the collar was used.
i skipped 4 since i said i wouldnt correct a poor recall. i would simply go get the dog and "force" a recall - in the sense that once i had the dog, i would MAKE the dog come to me since it would be on leash at that point, and i would encourage it (yes, through force - pulling the leash) towards me while at the same time praising it for coming.
no, one correction doesnt necessarily "carry over" - what carries over is the tone of the relationship and how well the dog understands what you want -since they are situational learners, they need to understand that sit doesnt just mean sit, it means sit everywhere all the time, etc. the same for down, heel, etc - its why we gradual increase distractions when we train, its why we encourage to train in different settings, etc.
personally, i dont close my training toolbox off to ANY tool. i look at my dog and what works best - and in the 3 of the 4 dogs i have trained in the past 2 years for competition level obedience, all three have required different tools to get where we needed to go. i let the dog tell me, not what some book, some preconceived theory, etc dictate how to train the dog.
im not ADVOCATING correction. i am saying that occassionally, a well placed correction is effective, warranted, and not the end of the world. therse a large difference between training purely with compulsion and corrections, and correcting a dog once in awhile for a warranted behavior.
what correction i use depends on what the problem has been, the level of training with a dog, what each dog can handle, and how serious the situation is. for mya, correction for her was "looking angry" at her. a sharp tone sent her running. for bowie, corrections were verbal or occassionally he would get the finger - poking him in the side/shoulder/hind end to get his attention if it wandered. rah has been used on a prong collar with leash corrections, which he didn't even flick an ear at. bowie was also worked on an e-collar for recalls.
rah also gets a lot of nasty things said to him sometimes, including this afternoon as i attempted not to vomit again (after being hospitalized earlier this week), and he walked out with my sock in his mouth. i believe the words i used were "strangle you and then feed you to the cats". good thing he doesnt speak english, huh?
except for the e-collar, which was used except for the first two training sessions, ONLY for off-leash/recall situations with bowie, bowie was never worked on a collar period for the last 3.5 years of his life (his competitive life). he competed on a flat collar, but never received a leash correction on it.
mya worked on a flat collar only - she wore a prong once and the correction was too harsh for her, so it was removed immediately. rah wears a flat collar for most basic obedience training, or no collar at all. when we train with his schutzhund trainer, he wears a prong collar. when out in public, he typically wears a martingale or his fursaver (prefer the fursaver) purely because he can slip a flat collar if determined. around the house he wears no collar at all.
so my collars depend on behavior to behavior - i will use the collar i need to get the results i want and need - most of the time it is independent of the collar and makes no difference, and i actively seek to train my dogs NOT to be collar-wise - i dont want what collar they wear to matter. rah is the only dog that gotten more than a few corrections, and in his first training session he literally only got two before he was spot-on. and he is an asshat, excuse my french. he is adolescent male doberman with oodles of drive he doesnt know where to place. and believe me when i say, i could toss this dog around and he wouldnt care - physical corrections mean little when the dogs favorite method of playing is to launch himself at people. his favorite playtime is me boxing with him, smacking him on the side, in the face, you name it. the dog has no physical sensitivity. most of the corrections he typically gets arent even "my" corrections - its when we work on LLW and heeling, that he hits the end of the leash with my spontaneous turns, just to get him in the working mode and attention on me. he typically is corrected much more for daily life behaviors (like stealing things) than anything obedience related, since right now we are working on drive, relationship, and good house manners - he needs all those things cultivated before he becomes my OTCH/MACH
i personally never correct a failure to recall - its the one behavior where i want the dog to ALWAYS look forward to come back to me, so i would never personally correct a missed recall. recalls are motivational behaviors. i have used the e-collar to proof a recall on a dog, but the dog was never corrected for NOT coming. thats not how the collar was used.
i skipped 4 since i said i wouldnt correct a poor recall. i would simply go get the dog and "force" a recall - in the sense that once i had the dog, i would MAKE the dog come to me since it would be on leash at that point, and i would encourage it (yes, through force - pulling the leash) towards me while at the same time praising it for coming.
no, one correction doesnt necessarily "carry over" - what carries over is the tone of the relationship and how well the dog understands what you want -since they are situational learners, they need to understand that sit doesnt just mean sit, it means sit everywhere all the time, etc. the same for down, heel, etc - its why we gradual increase distractions when we train, its why we encourage to train in different settings, etc.
personally, i dont close my training toolbox off to ANY tool. i look at my dog and what works best - and in the 3 of the 4 dogs i have trained in the past 2 years for competition level obedience, all three have required different tools to get where we needed to go. i let the dog tell me, not what some book, some preconceived theory, etc dictate how to train the dog.
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Doberkim
Thanks to you too for the reply. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I want to hear more about how people use corrections, however occasionally. Clearly there are people here with successful, well-trained dogs who do use corrections; just because I don't use them doesn't mean I don't want the knowledge you can give me. My dog sounds a bit like your Mya - just the thought that you may be upset has her offering up appeasement, and a sharp tone can get her peeing on the floor.
I certainly didn't ask these questions so I could insult the answers.
Perhaps I use the word advocating incorrectly. I think of it as being in favor of doing something, certainly not to mean that it is all you do.
Again, thank you for replying. I realize it may make you feel as if you are putting yourself out there for insults, so I appreciate it.
Thanks to you too for the reply. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I want to hear more about how people use corrections, however occasionally. Clearly there are people here with successful, well-trained dogs who do use corrections; just because I don't use them doesn't mean I don't want the knowledge you can give me. My dog sounds a bit like your Mya - just the thought that you may be upset has her offering up appeasement, and a sharp tone can get her peeing on the floor.
I certainly didn't ask these questions so I could insult the answers.
Perhaps I use the word advocating incorrectly. I think of it as being in favor of doing something, certainly not to mean that it is all you do.
Again, thank you for replying. I realize it may make you feel as if you are putting yourself out there for insults, so I appreciate it.
S
So what would you precsribe for me and my 7 month old rescue. If I keep her on a short leash in the house, and the leash is always in my hand, what exactly do I do when she sticks her nose somewhere that I don't want it? (edge of kitchen table, top of coffee table, top of furniture, etc... etc... etc...). What do I do?
S
dr2little said:
I'll meet you there Doberluv. I always give a little sigh of relief when Melanie shows up. I let my passion for this subject take over at times and it's so nice to have other like minded people to keep my head clear.
Great post...as usual Melanie!
I always give a little sigh of relief when Melanie shows up. I let my passion for this subject take over at times and it's so nice to have other like minded people to keep my head clear.Great post...as usual Melanie!