Correctional Training
- Thread starter Loviedovie
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W
It starts out just building drive, you frustrate the puppy with a toy that he can bite, usually a leather rag or small tug, till the pup is actively giving you the behaviors you want to see and it gets to bite, when they're really young, you let the leash go, and they get to chase their "prey" before the bite.
Later on the toys get bigger and the helper gets closer and the pup has to bite the toy in the helpers hands. After a long (months and months) while of good hard solid bites with the pup or dog actively giving the desired behaviors with no conflict the "out" will be introduced. Usually done like this, dog has reward in mouth, helper gets a new one and makes it active at the same time the handler gives the out command. This way, "out" doesn't create conflict with the handler over losing his "prey" or reward, but instead means, "oh yeah baby, fresh meat, give me a bite of that moving toy, not this dead one" and the toy in the mouth is dropped so it can go for the next live one, cause its more fun.
This of course is built up over time until the dog is actively engaging a man with a sleeve, hidden sleeve whatever. At this point many different things can happen depending on the dog, its age, its maturity, how it can handle pressure etc, that is much to much to get into here.
But at some point with some dogs, the reward in their mouth is worth more than the prospect of chasing a new one, sometimes staying in a heeling position with an "enemy" in front of or along side of you puts some dogs into such high drive, "eh eh" means absolutely nothing to them, some a pop from a prong collar doesn't mean jack to them either at this point. Their drive to bite and hang on or engage the helper overrides almost anything.
Teaching bite work motivationally is fun for handlers and dogs, of course you have to have a dog with the right drive or you'll never teach it bitework this way, and to me if they aren't driven to do it, its pretty pointless to do it, there are plenty of dogs that do want to.
Later on the toys get bigger and the helper gets closer and the pup has to bite the toy in the helpers hands. After a long (months and months) while of good hard solid bites with the pup or dog actively giving the desired behaviors with no conflict the "out" will be introduced. Usually done like this, dog has reward in mouth, helper gets a new one and makes it active at the same time the handler gives the out command. This way, "out" doesn't create conflict with the handler over losing his "prey" or reward, but instead means, "oh yeah baby, fresh meat, give me a bite of that moving toy, not this dead one" and the toy in the mouth is dropped so it can go for the next live one, cause its more fun.
This of course is built up over time until the dog is actively engaging a man with a sleeve, hidden sleeve whatever. At this point many different things can happen depending on the dog, its age, its maturity, how it can handle pressure etc, that is much to much to get into here.
But at some point with some dogs, the reward in their mouth is worth more than the prospect of chasing a new one, sometimes staying in a heeling position with an "enemy" in front of or along side of you puts some dogs into such high drive, "eh eh" means absolutely nothing to them, some a pop from a prong collar doesn't mean jack to them either at this point. Their drive to bite and hang on or engage the helper overrides almost anything.
Teaching bite work motivationally is fun for handlers and dogs, of course you have to have a dog with the right drive or you'll never teach it bitework this way, and to me if they aren't driven to do it, its pretty pointless to do it, there are plenty of dogs that do want to.
W
Its not so much advocating corrections, its being talked down to in this and other threads by certain people, that like to use PhD's, science, research, common sense, enlightened trainers, advanced trainers, etc to describe themselves and if you use corrections well, you're below them. I know I haven't told anyone in this thread or any others really to put a leash on and start yanking, just pointing out that they're could be, is, and most trainers that never talk about correcting (physically) any dog in public, have and will use when, when the need arises, but some just don't want to hear it.
There's no doubt positive training works, I don't think anybody in this thread has said it doesn't. Is it ALWAYS the best in EVERY situation for EVERY dog ALL the time?? Common sense tells me nothing is absolute.
There's no doubt positive training works, I don't think anybody in this thread has said it doesn't. Is it ALWAYS the best in EVERY situation for EVERY dog ALL the time?? Common sense tells me nothing is absolute.
Oh, Ok.....I'd show the dog that it was much more beneficial to not jump up on the counter. I'd actively teach the dog that jumping on the counter does not get him food, but that staying off does. When I wasn't in the room, I'd not leave a reward on the counter for him to get into. With a sufficient volume of reinforcement for wanted behavior, the dog would be counter conditioned and his alternative behavior (the one I want)..the one which DOES get him what he wants (food) would be replacing the unwanted behavior...the behavior which for some time has not given him what he wants. (food) Dogs do what works. When a behavior ceases to work for a dog, the behavior will cease.
This is based on the science of learning. You can mock and insult PhD's, science, research, common sense, enlightened trainers, advanced trainers and me if it makes you feel good about yourself. You don't know what my experience and education is. I am certainly not be in the league with these people, but I am learning from them and I form my opinions based on their success as well as my own.
This is based on the science of learning. You can mock and insult PhD's, science, research, common sense, enlightened trainers, advanced trainers and me if it makes you feel good about yourself. You don't know what my experience and education is. I am certainly not be in the league with these people, but I am learning from them and I form my opinions based on their success as well as my own.
W
I don't mock them, I read, talk to and listen and try to do things that they've done. Its just funny that people like to throw out those words all the time,but only look at half the equation, cause there's PhD's, science, research, common sense, enlightened trainers, advanced trainers etc, that use all forms of learning and behavior modification. It has nothing to do with making me feel good about myself.
and your training regime for fixing that dog, just how long do you think it would take?? what if you had kids that would evenutally leave something out. Just how would you take that dog that just knew there eventually be food up there?? Again, it sounds so easy with words, Just how long would it take to extinguish the behavior, what about sudden "burst" of behavior because of an inadvertent sucess at counter surfing from careless kids, or a careless trainer, it happens, its the real world. I would probably take bets, that it would take you a year or more, or more likely the dog would just have remain confined, which isn't really training, a part of training yes, but isn't real training.
and your training regime for fixing that dog, just how long do you think it would take?? what if you had kids that would evenutally leave something out. Just how would you take that dog that just knew there eventually be food up there?? Again, it sounds so easy with words, Just how long would it take to extinguish the behavior, what about sudden "burst" of behavior because of an inadvertent sucess at counter surfing from careless kids, or a careless trainer, it happens, its the real world. I would probably take bets, that it would take you a year or more, or more likely the dog would just have remain confined, which isn't really training, a part of training yes, but isn't real training.
S
So what if your house has a very open floor plan - like mine does?? It is not at all reasonable to close off the kitchen. You bring home your 2 or 3 year old rescue dog and at some point he will try and jump up to see what is on the counter... What do you do??? Because you know darn well that he will jump up on the counter at some point. What do you do when he does?
You said you would never leave anything in there when you are not. OK. Fair enough. But what about when you are in there, making dinner. I have a very large island in my kitchen that most of the food prep takes place on. It is simply not possible to enclose my kitchen while I am working in there. The dog walks up to the other side of the island while you are making dinner and it jumps up to see what smells so yummy. What do you do? Nothing? Do you stand there and let the dog swipe the chicken off the counter and start eating it? Do you wait until he is finished, has a fully belly, and then administer some positive training by giving him a substantial food reward for laying on the kitchen floor and being such a good boy?
Regardless of what you try and do, there will be that first time that he tries and jumps up to check out what is on the counter. What will you do? What will you do?
What will you do?
You said you would never leave anything in there when you are not. OK. Fair enough. But what about when you are in there, making dinner. I have a very large island in my kitchen that most of the food prep takes place on. It is simply not possible to enclose my kitchen while I am working in there. The dog walks up to the other side of the island while you are making dinner and it jumps up to see what smells so yummy. What do you do? Nothing? Do you stand there and let the dog swipe the chicken off the counter and start eating it? Do you wait until he is finished, has a fully belly, and then administer some positive training by giving him a substantial food reward for laying on the kitchen floor and being such a good boy?
Regardless of what you try and do, there will be that first time that he tries and jumps up to check out what is on the counter. What will you do? What will you do?
What will you do?
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Apparently, Roxy, you dont? If you knew your dog well enough you would not be dealing with avoidance issues with her right now. YOU the handler must know how far you can go with a dog without making them go into avoidance. When I know my dog is close to shutting down, I stop, we go and do something fun. You have to be able to read your dog and know what enough is.
Someone who has lived with multiple dogs for over 45 years gets so they have eyes in the back of their head. LOL. I've gotten to the point where I can anticipate what a dog is about to do before he does it, at that first muscle contraction. It's always best to prevent a pay off for a dog if possible. If a dog were flinching, about to jump, I'd step into the space he was about to occupy. I'd give him an alternative behavior....perhaps to go lie on his rug. These things I'd teach him at other times. If a dog had zero knowlege of how to act in a human household, I would not be trying to do other things like cook while he was running around, leaping up on counters. He would need some training. And if I were too busy to supervise him, he would either be tethered to me or in a crate or x pen. It's ALWAYS best to prevent reinforcements for behaviors you don't want than to have to use a lot of yanks and scoldings to un-do previously reinforced, undesireable behaviors.
Once a dog has a few alternative behaviors that he can engage in, which have vastly higher payoffs than the unwanted behavior, that one will phase out.
I have had puppies and kids and food on counters and shelter dogs. I managegd somehow without yanking, jerking, harsh scoldings...not that I'm saying that you or anyone necessarily uses harsh scoldings. I'm not. I am more, debating the different ways of working with a dog....different from relying heavily on harsh corrections.
Huh?
Once a dog has a few alternative behaviors that he can engage in, which have vastly higher payoffs than the unwanted behavior, that one will phase out.
I have had puppies and kids and food on counters and shelter dogs. I managegd somehow without yanking, jerking, harsh scoldings...not that I'm saying that you or anyone necessarily uses harsh scoldings. I'm not. I am more, debating the different ways of working with a dog....different from relying heavily on harsh corrections.
Huh?
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Doberluv, you said dogs have been domesticated over the years (obviously), and are human dependant, they that means they should not stay with their dam until an appropriate age because they "are not what they used to be". The mother still corrects them no matter how domesticated they are.
Stags, you have brought up some interesting thoughts.
Stags, you have brought up some interesting thoughts.
S
GSDlover_4ever said:
Doberluv, you said dogs have been domesticated over the years (obviously), and are human dependant, they that means they should not stay with their dam until an appropriate age because they "are not what they used to be". The mother still corrects them no matter how domesticated they are.
Stags, you have brought up some interesting thoughts.
Stags, you have brought up some interesting thoughts.
Which in particular do you find interesting?
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I dont think you are a big dope,
. How the mother does NOT praise the puppy but DOES correct them is very interesting, I never thought of it like that. Good behavior is EXPECTED behavior, in nature. Dont let these people discourage you. You do what YOU feel is right. No method is right or wrong, its what works for you and your dog.
S
GSDlover_4ever said:
I dont think you are a big dope, . How the mother does NOT praise the puppy but DOES correct them is very interesting, I never thought of it like that. Good behavior is EXPECTED behavior, in nature.
Dont let these people discourage you. You do what YOU feel is right. No method is right or wrong, its what works for you and your dog.
. How the mother does NOT praise the puppy but DOES correct them is very interesting, I never thought of it like that. Good behavior is EXPECTED behavior, in nature. Dont let these people discourage you. You do what YOU feel is right. No method is right or wrong, its what works for you and your dog.
We start obedience class this Saturday. We are trying as hard as we can to learn as much as we can. Our new pooch is a 7 month old rescued male Treeing Walker Coonhound named "Boomer" of unknown origin. He was simply found out in the country and they don't know where he came from.
He is certainly still pretty excitable - but that is probably to be expected at 7 months old. We went to the vets last night for our initial visit. The shelter had taken him to see a vet, but we wanted to get him checked out by our own vet. He got a great bill of health and his heartworm test came back negative, I just got the call.
He is doing outstanding in his crate and he has not yet had one accident in the house (knock on wood). Sometimes he is apprehensive about going into the crate, but when we throw a few treats in there he is more than happy to go gobble them up. Weaning him off the treats to get him into the cage is proving to be difficult, but has only been a few days. He is AWESOME on the leash (we walk/rollerblade with him 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour in the evening).
So much to learn - my head is spinning.....
Well for starters...she generally feeds them...
I think Doberluv's point is that dogs aren't dumb enough not to be able to differentiate between a human being and another dog.
No matter how much we THINK we are approximating canid behavior (such as a correction) there is no way to be 100% sure. What we think is a pretty good imitation of a dam's correction may not connect in any way shape or form in the dog's mind.
Dogs do not generalize. It's why we can have an animal that does a completely reliable recall when indoors, but acts as if they've never heard the word "come" in their life when outdoors. To think that a dog will now generalize across species is a little over-simplified in my opinion.
I think Doberluv's point is that dogs aren't dumb enough not to be able to differentiate between a human being and another dog.
No matter how much we THINK we are approximating canid behavior (such as a correction) there is no way to be 100% sure. What we think is a pretty good imitation of a dam's correction may not connect in any way shape or form in the dog's mind.
Dogs do not generalize. It's why we can have an animal that does a completely reliable recall when indoors, but acts as if they've never heard the word "come" in their life when outdoors. To think that a dog will now generalize across species is a little over-simplified in my opinion.