Correctional Training

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Loviedovie, Jul 30, 2006.

  1. whatszmatter

    whatszmatter Guest

    well you would be wrong in the truest sense of the word concerning me, i can't speak for everyone. The reason I defend adamantly, I can see the difference, I know its importance. I can see a motivational only, a compulsion only, and one trained using motivation and correction when needed, and I'll take the later as a whole to be a better trained more reliable and have amazing bonds with their handlers. I"ve read the same books as everyone else, plus some I think, i've worked with many different trainers, but the attitude towards anyone using a correction is they're barbaric and undeducated. it has nothing to do with the amount of corrections I give or why I give them that I defend them. Its when I see the posts that say you can't do it, cause it ruins, blah, blah, blah, it does ruffle me as well.
     
  2. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

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    I look at things a bit differently, perhaps, because I work with people and their dogs so much. I see that people have an almost automatic response to correct and that it's SO easy for people to try to correct instead of motivate and train - so I do discourage people from thinking in that "corrective mode" and to think in a motivational way instead. The corrections are going to happen, regardless, with almost everyone out there. So the more I can get them to think of ways to train without the corrections, the better off they (and the dogs) will be.

    Corrections can and often do compromise the relationship between dog and handler. An improperly timed correction can really mess a dog up, especially a sensitive dog. This is not just something I'm making up because I want to push my own agenda - this is something that should be obvious to anyone who really thinks about it. And those out there who are very heavy-handed (and you know who you are - not pointing fingers at anyone in particular) will NOT have the same kind of trusting relationship with their dogs as someone who is primarily motivational and uses corrections sparingly. The sad thing is that they think they do.

    I believe in providing a strong, fair and kind leadership but that doesn't mean that I have to use much in the way of punishment. I take full responsibility for MY mistakes, and that includes the way I manage my dogs in my own home. I don't blame my dogs for everything they do, because as the supposedly more intelligent species (for example) I should be able to remember not to leave food out where they can get it.

    I do use verbal corrections and on occasion physical ones. Nowhere have I said "never use a correction" - but I sure think that some people who post in these threads use a lot more correction than they want to admit to. There's just too much protesting about their rights to do what they want with their dogs. People who are highly corrective are often blind to other methods. And I'm sure that those of you who defend corrections so strongly think that those who use positive methods are blind too.

    Melanie and the gang in Alaska
     
  3. whatszmatter

    whatszmatter Guest

    I agree, that's the way it is for a lot of people.
    The level of correction has to fit the dog, soft/sensitive dogs even too loud of a verbal can cause them to shut down, so yes, any type of correction has to fit the dog and the infraction.

    It is a fine line, i'm not going to act like it isn't. It is a balancing act but its a balance that can create a beautiful picture. Mis-used and mistimed corrections can cause damage to not just the bond but other things, probably to a further degree than misusing a clicker, but problems can arise in the form of some pretty nasty displacement behaviors in ill-trained "clicker" dogs too. I know there's more propensity towards physical corrections causing more, I'm just putting out the info.

    I'll never debate against that, since I agree 100%

    I assume this is in reference to another thread. My point being in that I have no problem if I would have had a dog in that situation, catching in the act, would have gotten a leash and collar correction, along with other training. I'm not afraid to approach a problem from both sides, to me it works faster and can have something like that, which could be reason for someone to get rid of a dog, taken care of very very quickly. I was bringing up other points about extincion bursts, variable reward schedules and how **** reinforcing to a behavior they could be, especially one that's been paying off for years in another environment, and how difficult it would be to change that behavior. Anyway, that was a different thread so i'll leave the rest of it there.

    That can be true

    edited: you edit out darn??? (sort of)
     
  4. Rubylove

    Rubylove Training the Trainer

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    Of course leave it means leave it. I never said it didn't. Perhaps you should actually read my post. My dogs know not to get up on the benches, they know not to steal food, they know what leave it means and they know all their other commands. And I still managed to teach them all this without using any kind of harsh methods at all. Correction is an absolute part of training your dog - again, I never said it wasn't. It just comes down to the type of correction that you use. My point is that you either do it in a way that dogs instinctively understand, or you do it in a way that is easier for you. You have chosen the latter, I have chosen the former. Whatever floats your boat. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours, something that you will come to understand better as you get older.

    In the meantime - I'm very pleased to see a 17-year-old taking such an active interest in their dog. Too many teenagers couldn't give a toss about their animals, so, good on you for that. Even if we don't agree on training.
     
  5. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

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    Melanie, I'm not going to debate this with you. Personally I think this whole thread is just silly. Yes, I posted in it too, and yes my feathers got ruffled (and not because I 'just like ruffleing") but I see now that I should have simply kept my trap shut.

    There is no convincing some folks that you can use 'appropriate corrections', (and I think we all know what those are. If you think it means hanging, hitting or yanking on a dog then you are so far off the mark it's not even funny) and still have a wonderfully trained, happy, confident and bonded dog. It's like spinning on a hamster wheel since someone will always object and say it's not possible.

    We all obviously think we are right, and it's also quite obvious that no one is going to change their mind. Let's just leave it be, okay? Otherwise I feel this thread will go on for another 20 or so pages and no one wants that.
     
  6. Roxy's CD

    Roxy's CD New Member

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    I dont think anyone is debating the use of corrections and that they do work.

    I think the point is, is the same thing can be accomplished with out any sort of physical correction.

    This is what I see. Some people who dont' use physical correction it's just their personality. And our dogs usually take after us, so that would be what's best. A soft spoken person, to a dog that responds to their soft tone, and calm manner.

    A person that is high strung and "rough" will tend to have a dog that is high strung and rough, and perhaps a few well placed corrections would work best for that dog.

    Now of course not every circumstance is like those two I just listed, BUT it's obviously already been pointed out the corrections/purely motivational is very much a personal thing.

    Some people are bothered by it, others are not. I think when it's put that simply we should just leave it at that. :)
     
  7. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

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    And the point I'd like to make is that for some dogs, it can't. Plain and simple. We trainers who use moderate corrections don't do so because we enjoy it or because we're lazy. We do it because it works for that particular dog when another approach would not. (and if someone comes along and says 'but EVERY single dog can be trained perfectly with purely positive training you're just not doing it right'....I may just have to strangle myself with my mouse cord.)

    Okay, I'm done. For sure this time.
     
  8. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

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    I don't find this thread silly - why would an honest exchange of opinions (and reasons to back up those opinions) be considered silly? Granted, we're a bit off the original post but that's pretty typical for a forum thread. They tend to evolve and go into different directions.

    Ann, you say you use "moderate corrections" and "appropriate corrections" but if you do work with a lot of dog owners you surely know that what YOU might consider moderate or appropriate is not what some people consider the same. There are still people out there who think that you teach a dog to heel by putting a corrective collar on and doing a bunch of swift turns to yank the dog forward. There are still people using the forced retrieve- ear pinching a dog into accepting a dumbbell. There are still field trial dogs and other dogs screaming because they're hit with a high-level shock collar. I'm sure you've seen some corrections that make you shudder (as have I). Heck, I know of a top-level schutzhund (world) competitor who routinely sharpened the prongs on his prong collar and LAUGHED when he talked about the blood spurting out of his dog's neck. And because these people are still out there using pretty forceful methods, I do have to question the concept of what a person considers "appropriate". That is truly a subjective term.

    So on an online board like this, I don't tend to suggest corrective methods because people with the personality to use force will often over-use that force. They prefer compliance because they SAY SO over rewarding a behavior using what they consider a bribe (treats, etc.). There are many many people out there who feel this way. So while I may use an occasional physical correction on my dogs, it's not something I'm going to necessarily recommend to someone online who may go overboard with the correction and instead of using it in conjunction with proper reinforcement, will use it exclusively for "training purposes". THIS is what I am trying to avoid.

    Nearly all behaviors with all dogs can be trained using highly motivational methods. I have no doubts about this. I've worked with too many dogs to think otherwise - and have even used these kinds of methods successfully with cats, horses and even a wolf. It helps if you have good timing and a good grasp of animal behavior, but everyone has to start somewhere and you get better with practice. Some animals do need to find a consequence at some point, yes, but in all honesty (and I kind of think you'd agree) people tend to use more corrections than are necessary and it generally IS because they're either uninformed or lazy or just prefer to use force.

    It's very possible that you and I aren't that different in our training. It's the way we come across online that is probably different. I don't disagree that some dogs benefit from an occasional correction. I just want people to think more about ways to motivate than to correct .. and that's why I tend to promote the motivational training more than anything else. It not only is extremely effective, but it makes people really start to observe their dogs and think about what they're doing - instead of just relying on a leash or a collar to fix whatever they don't like.

    Melanie and the gang in Alaska
     
  9. Rubylove

    Rubylove Training the Trainer

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    Lol point taken! I guess that just because I have never used it in training dogs, doesn't mean that others haven't found the need to.
     
  10. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

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    Melanie, I do agree with most of what you are saying. We probably aren't that different in our training.

    This is where we disagree.

    There is no one way for every dog in every situation with every person. It just doesn't work like that.

    I've seen some very well trained dogs who have naturally obedient personalities trained with just a clicker and treats. They do awesome. I have one myself.

    However, I've yet to see a truly high drive dog be properly controlled around highly rewarding stimuli with *just* clicker training or *just* positive training*.

    Know quite a few folks who are happy to have simply gotten a good heel with *just* a clicker and treats...and it took them months, sometimes years.

    I find that very sad but that's just me. I don't think that approach is any help to a novice dog owner with a pulling, lunging, uncontrolable dog.

    I don't think any approach that is strictly set in one way of training, traditional correction based, or purely positive, is productive for dogs and thier owners. Being flexible can go a long way.

    Of course people will make their own assumptions unless we explain to them exactly what type of corrections are appropriate. I explain and demonstrate for my clients what is acceptable for that particular dog. And providing the person typing has a general grasp on the english language, they can explain the same thing over the internet.

    I think where we differ the most is that I don't belive a well timed pop on the collar is going to harm a relationship with the dog. I don't think it should be something avoided at all costs untill the last resort. I just see it as another way to give information to the dog. That's it.


    (and it's obvious that I'm not capable of following my own advice and staying out of this thread... lol )
     
  11. GSDlover_4ever

    GSDlover_4ever New Member

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    LOL, Always putting words in my mouth. Who said my training is correction based? I dont believe I said that. You interprete posts the way you WANT to see them, not how they are. I USE corrections, yes. But that is not the basis of my training. You really need to sit back and READ before ASSUMING, because we all know what happens when you do that.
     
  12. GSDlover_4ever

    GSDlover_4ever New Member

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    I agree!!!
     

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