Correctional Training

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#61
BostonBanker said:
Wow, my first time posting on a thread like this. I'm a little scared, but want to respond.

First off, I adopted a 1 year old rescue in February. And since then, I have never used physical punishment. Occasional verbal corrections when she is in a dangerous situation, such as when I taught her not to go under a horse's feet, but that's it. I taught positive dog classes for two years, and had a mix of students who "got it" right away, some who walked in the first night with their choke chains, and one memorable one who came in crying after a trainer hung the dog on it's choke until it passed out. I never met a dog who couldn't be trained positively, but met several who could have NEVER been trained with force.



This is, I think, one of the biggest reasons to go with all positive training. We've established that all dogs are different; nobody is going to disagree, right? So how do you know how much punishment is enough? There is enormous risk to going overboard with punishment. Dogs can shut down, turn aggressive, or have physical damage. I don't see any risk to screwing up with positive training, other than your dog (or you) has to try again, or maybe the dog gets some extra reward. I've worked with animals my whole life; I have very good timing for rewarding, or correcting if I chose to do so. But I'm not taking that risk.

I have a dog because I love them. I don't want to hit her, roll her, or pull on her, and I don't have to. With purely positive training, I called my little hunting dog off of a rabbit she was chasing the other night, and got an instant recall with an out of control "stub wag". I'm **** proud of her, and very happy that I didn't have to use force.
Sometimes it's hard to put into words the reasons I'm so passionate about positive training. Yes it's experience and education but as I'm reading your post, I see you "get it", it's so much more than that. Because I don't want to scruff, yank, yell use any other forms of physical correction..some think that I'm everthing from self righteous and arrogant, to soft:confused: . That's so not IT. I don't believe that if a dog can be trained without physical punishment, WE humans have the right to use physical punishment. Why should dogs be forced to live in a parallel world to ours in which we determine what they GET to do or HAVE to do using fear/pain/physical strength to control them? Why, when it's so unnecessary???
I agree with you as well that physical punishment is a risky business.
I've yet to go to a bite case where a dog was trained using only positive reinforcement with negative verbal marker.
You should be very proud of your dog retracting from her rabbit chase, I'm not surprised that you did it with positive training...just means you know what you're doing. Good for you!!
 

doberkim

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#62
Roxy's CD said:
I like the last part of your post dr2little. I think we use negative reinforcers so much with our dogs because we *can*. We're "bigger" than them.

When it comes to working with other animals/mammals that are bigger than us you see 100% positive to get them to comply with what we want.

Yes, I'm sure there are some that use negatives (electrical prods) but I'm also sure there have been some bad accidents that could be directly related.

I'm an Animal Planet addict, and I've watched many a documentary on elephants (which is what it seemed like you were referring to kind of), and they purely use positive reinforcement to get the elephants to do those behaviours that you mentioned.

for the record, to this very day, elephants continue to kill humans when they get "out of control". they have along history of causing human death when their training methods have failed them.
 

silverpawz

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#63
I've yet to go to a bite case where a dog was trained using only positive reinforcement with negative verbal marker.
I have to jump in here and say that I have seen this and I know other trainers who've seen this as well. Unfortunetly some owners think positive means permissive and simply have no boundries for the dog, and that can foster aggression. Create it? No, I don't think so. But it can certainly nurture exsisting aggressive tendoncies.

I've gotten quite a few cases where the dog was trained using only positive reinforcement and verbal corrections, absolutly zero physical corrections and the dogs were half-trained lunatics. Was it the method? Or the way the method was applied? Hard to say. For these particluar dogs is could have been the method, or it could have been simply the owner mucking up the method.

But it does happen. You don't have to use balanced approach or even strictly correction based to end up with a dog that has aggression issues. Aggression doesn't show preference to a certain method.
 
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#64
whatszmatter said:
I could ask the same, why the "tude", anytime anyone mentions corrections, mainly from you and Dober, we're antiquated, were' harsh, we're not enlightened such as you two seem to be. A lot of it comes from Dober. Everytime its well I've read Phd's and behaviorists and they all say....... Well no they don't, i've posted stuff by them before saying the exact opposite. Its like a few get a holier than though attitude, and really I'm not going to stand for it. Saying corrections have no place in training is wrong, saying you don't have a need for them fine. To say if you use them you need to be enlightened is talking down to and most certainly isn't based on all the science and every other word that gets thrown around in here to bring credibility to positive only training, and i'm not going to sit by and let it go.

Somebody asks a question about counter surfing, and they get an answer from someone that clearly has a good relationship with their dog. BUt they changed the criteria in which the question was asked. when questioned again, its a "did you read my post? response. We all read it, and she gave a very good description in a very controlled environment, but not many people live in that type of environment. I thougth it was a very fair and valid question.

I doubt we disagree about training philosophies very much. I train almost entirely motivationally for quite some time before anything some might consider harsh comes into play. I'd be willing to be my timing and my application of primary, secondary, bridging all that other stuff is pretty good, perfect no, but pretty good. I can easily see a difference in a dog that is all motivational, and a dog that has its foundation in motivation, but realized at some point it MUST comply. Just as I can see a dog that has been trained with pure compulsion creates an obedient dog, but very ugly relationship between handler and dog.

I'm glad you're out there doing your thing. I can tell you know quite a bit and are probably a very good trainer, but just as you sense "tude" with me, I kind of get the same thing back from you and some others. I don't really care to be "right", what's right for me isn't right for everyone else, and what's right for one dog isn't right for every other dog.
I have to say that unless someone is bragging about the means in which they control their dog (not you), my statements are about methods..not the people who use them on this forum. I have to be honest about what I do and what believe in and I don't use physical correction nor do I believe in it.
I don't see why that makes some on here angry. If I was lying about my training life, the degree of difficult cases that I handle or it didn't really work, then that's another story. I have a long history of training without physical correction, it is what it is and I am who I am. I will never argue FOR something that I don't feel is justified....THAT would be disingenuous...but would probably be more popular.
As for the phd's, I don't know of anyone in that category who still uses or promotes the use of physical correction. You may have posted something that I haven't read but I only post the facts as I know them.
I'm sure that you do use motivational training and that you see success as well. Again, I have no issue with you...I just don't agree that anything..particularly competition that does not improve a dogs quality of life, would warrent so much as a leash pop.
 

doberkim

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#65
Doberluv said:
First of all, positive reward, using primary and secondary enforcers (operant and classical conditioning based methods) is what I subscribe to. I put the vast emphasis on the motivation and reward aspect of it because science has proven that it is more effective to an animal's learning than is admistering aversives. Not only has this been demonstrated scientifically, but I am more comfortable with it and it works very well. I have seen who uses this type of training methods, their results and their credentials, where they work, what they work with and it is indeed impressive. These PhDs in applied animal behavior use mainly reward based methods and in many cases completely void of aversives. This is not to say that I don't tell my dogs not to do something. I do. I don't always take the time to do things the way I know they could be handled. I too, am still learning and developing new habits. I would not hesitate to pull my dog off the counter if he were jumping up and telling him, "eh-eh." And when he sat and stayed off, let him know that's what I want and reward him. I don't use collar corrections or harsh vocalizations when training obedience or agility. It's all motivation and reward...all of it. And my Doberman is very obedient, extraordinarily enthusiastic about whatever I ask him to do. His recall is superb and reliable and very prompt. He use to run into me, he was coming so fast...when he was a pup. LOL. I have used both methods (in the old days). And I see a huge difference in the dogs, their ability to think is increased, they are smarter than when forced to comply and our bond runs deeper. It's even better than it was with previous dogs.



Of course, if the dog was in the act of stealing food, I'd pull him off and probably tell him, "eh-eh!" I am not talking about not telling a dog not to do something once in a while. I'm talking about choke collars, yanking on the neck hard, intimidating a dog...spraying vinegar in his face and all the other brands of aversives I hear about. I prefer to try and set the dog up....set the environment up so that I don't have to use an over abundance of "no" and "eh-eh!" If a dog hears that all day long, he starts tuning you out. Those words need to have been associated with some pretty harsh punishment at one time or they wouldn't be stopping a behavior. Science shows that positive reward is more effective than positive punishment in the way dogs learn.

My Doberman, as a pup did this. He was so tall at an early age. If I forgot and left anything on the counter, he'd snatch it if I weren't looking. Now, if I had punished him harshly (a sharp NO! or hard yank) for that, the way dogs think, based on my studies of behavior, is that the dog would learn that it is dangerous to steal food in my presence, but safe to steal it when I'm not around. They don't have a sense of our morals so do not think they're doing something "naughty." It's just rewarding to them to get food off the counter. Jumping up works. It's a self rewarding behavior. So, they're getting reinforced for the jumping up everytime they get something good.

With Lyric, I realized quickly that I had to keep food off the counters religiously, never slipping up. After one or two times of his getting something, I kept those counters clean as a whistle at all times. He'd jump up.....nothing, no reward, no reinforcement. That behavior stopped after several more tries. No payoff, behavior ceases. When it stopped working for him to jump up, he stopped jumping up. When he'd hang out in the kitchen watching me cook and remained "polite"....standing back a ways, not being too pushy, I'd take him over a few feet further and ask him to sit or down and I'd give him a tasty, high value treat. He learned that if he sat nicely, he just might get lucky. There was no need to jump up on the counter.

He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.

My four dogs all lie down 10 ft. from my table when I have guests for dinner. They stay put for as long as the dinner lasts. When dinner is over and I'm cleaning the dishes, that's when they get some handouts for their efforts. They know they will get food and yummy food at that when they perform the behavior I like. This they learned gradually...in baby steps, rewarding frequently as they stayed. Now they only need a reward at the end of the 1/2 hour or so it takes to eat dinner. They lie there wagging their tails and watching us. They get told periodically how wonderful they are. They were never scolded, told "no" or yanked if they broke the stay. They were simply replaced and we'd start over...maybe rewarding a little closer together. And we didn't start out with a whole 1/2 hour of course. LOL. 1 minute, then 2, then 4 etc.
so emily, really you advocate that you can correct your dog when you see fit however you see fit, but then the rest of us cannot - you used a verbal and a physical correction (pulling him off the counter).

why do you get to draw the line as to what corrections are ok, and what ones arent?
 
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#66
silverpawz said:
I have to jump in here and say that I have seen this and I know other trainers who've seen this as well. Unfortunetly some owners think positive means permissive and simply have no boundries for the dog, and that can foster aggression. Create it? No, I don't think so. But it can certainly nurture exsisting aggressive tendoncies.

I've gotten quite a few cases where the dog was trained using only positive reinforcement and verbal corrections, absolutly zero physical corrections and the dogs were half-trained lunatics. Was it the method? Or the way the method was applied? Hard to say. For these particluar dogs is could have been the method, or it could have been simply the owner mucking up the method.

But it does happen. You don't have to use balanced approach or even strictly correction based to end up with a dog that has aggression issues. Aggression doesn't show preference to a certain method.
I agree that I do go to cases, resource guarding for example, where a bite has already occured due to lack of leadership and or training/understanding. Tunnel vision on my part. My point was that most bite cases are retaliation or fear based...I stand corrected.;)
 
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#67
doberkim said:
for the record, to this very day, elephants continue to kill humans when they get "out of control". they have along history of causing human death when their training methods have failed them.
So do killer whales....and George Burns smoked into his 90's. I think my point was missed.
 
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stags14

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#69
dr2little said:
I only post the facts as I know them.
You don't know all the facts... The only facts that are relavant for you are the ones that fit into your belief system... Go watch police dogs being trained and let me know what you see....

The positive only bunch are pushovers, soft, and more than likely tree-hugging, peace-loving hippies.

Mother dogs will physically correct their puppies when they do something wrong. Mother dogs will not lavish an enormous amount of praise and treats on puppies when they do something right. Based on that undeniable fact of nature, please explain to me why it is not acceptable to give a gentle but firm leash correction when the dog does something wrong...

You have simply humanized dogs so that YOU feel good about your interaction with them with little regard for the animals actually being dogs.
 

Doberluv

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#70
so emily, really you advocate that you can correct your dog when you see fit however you see fit, but then the rest of us cannot - you used a verbal and a physical correction (pulling him off the counter).
I didn't say that the rest of you cannot. You can do what you please. I couldn't care less.

When a puppy is getting into an electric cord, or a $15.00 steak on the counter, yup...I'll put my arms around him and bring him away and give him an appropriate object he can have. I don't take the time to train him in the middle of an emergency. That is not the same thing as shouting, spraying vinegar, jerking his neck with a choke collar or using a shock collar, throwing shake cans of pennies and all the other flavors of punishment out there in the dog owning world.... frightening, startling, being angry. I'm not the one who uses shock collars to train my dog. After my pup got on the counter a couple of times, his training began and it was with not aversives. He is reliably trained and it was done using mainly motivation and reward.

why do you get to draw the line as to what corrections are ok, and what ones arent?
Apparently because I have common sense. When training a dog to heel, if he isn't in position, even if he has been before many time, I will not yank his neck with a choke collar or use stern vocalizations. I will use a clicker to show him what will earn him the reward. I will increase his bank of reinforcements.
__________________

You have simply humanized dogs so that YOU feel good about your interaction with them with little regard for the animals actually being dogs
It looks like you need to do some more research on applied canine learning behavior and the evolution of the domestication of the dog...what it means for dogs live with humans and humans to live with dogs.

Go watch police dogs being trained and let me know what you see....
Actually, scent detection *is* being trained with operant conditioning and clickers. Steve White was a trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State, accredited as a Master Trainer in '93 the Washington State Police Canine Association, Steve is also a past Executive Board Member of that body. He's been an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement. Steve has instructed at seminars in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and The United Kingdom. He is currently a primary instructor at Karen Pryor's ClickerExpo. He has taught obedience classes at parks, community centers, and kennels. His articles have appeared in police K-9 and dog training publications in the U.S. and Canada. He specializes in teaching behavior modification, tracking, and scent work through the use of positive reinforcement based operant conditioning. He provides consultation and training to K-9 units on administrative and legal issues, and has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.

Do check out the CAAPDT seminar in Calgary, Canada this year. He will be speaking as will Ray Coppinger, so you can get a dose of ideas about pack theory and operant conditioning all at the same time. I hear that if he shows his video on suspect apprehension it will leave you breathless.

Shall I go on?


The Texas Task Force 1 of FEMA uses clicker training. A "clicker" trainer in Keller, TX who procures dogs for DPS (state police), Customs and some private explosive and narcotic detection companies imprints dogs for explosive and narcatic work with great success. Some of the above mentioned use clickers and some don't, but they all use use positive reinforcement to train.
 

Gempress

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#71
Doberluv....

When the poster said "police dogs", I don't think they were referring to scent detection. I think they meant the K9 units who do bitework and suspect apprehension. Granted, my knowledge of protection work is horrible, but I don't see those dogs being trained with the use of a marker and only positive reinforcement.
 
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whatszmatter

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#72
Apparently because I have common sense.
my my, such arrogance.
Actually, scent detection *is* being trained with operant conditioning and clickers.
There's a lot more to being a patrol dog than scent detection, and if you're doing trailing with aprehension, he may train motivationally for the most part, but i can assure you that there is more to it than that.

After my pup got on the counter a couple of times, his training began and it was with not aversives. He is reliably trained and it was done using mainly motivation and reward.
You still didn't answer the question posed to you. What would you do with a year or two year old rescue, how about a 3 year old that had many sucesses at counter surfing, if you had kids that would surely leave something out at some point, leaving a big pay off that can reinforce even more strongly the action of counter surfing because of the unscheduled pay off. You know about this stuff you've read all the science and Phd's, you know how powerful it is, so tell us, what would you do in THAT situation, not your almost perfect one.

It looks like you need to do some more research on applied canine learning behavior and the evolution of the domestication of the dog...what it means for dogs live with humans and humans to live with dogs.
HMMM, maybe some of us have and still do, and don't deny, ignore or repress the other less PC research and uses, to attain some higher moral ground that some like to feel they operate from.

He will be speaking as will Ray Coppinger, so you can get a dose of ideas about pack theory and operant conditioning all at the same time.
he's a very bright man I wish I could go check him out. Unfortunately all I can do is read his books.

The Texas Task Force 1 of FEMA uses clicker training. A "clicker" trainer in Keller, TX who procures dogs for DPS (state police), Customs and some private explosive and narcotic detection companies imprints dogs for explosive and narcatic work with great success. Some of the above mentioned use clickers and some don't, but they all use use positive reinforcement to train.
You do realize that the dogs they use for this have all the right tools to do this stuff right?? They aren't taking just any dog to train for this, and they types of stuff they're training for doesn't really require any sort of physical corrections.

YOU have ZERO experience with this stuff so what's with the "shall I go on" comments about. You have no idea how long it takes to train and how much you have to proof a PSD. If tracking training and they dog decides to give up, or chase a rabbit or finds something else more interesting, even with all the buildup to train against distractions, it happens, What are you going to do, let it go??? sorry, when its time to track its time to track, someone's life could depend on it.
 
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whatszmatter

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#74
you still didn't answer any questions?? What are the links for?? I know what's in them, but I did read them again. So they train primarily motivationally?? So do we, if you think they're training is totally devoid of any type of correction you've missed the boat. They're simply pointing out that they've gone from using compulstion to teach everything to using mainly motivation.

I can still assure you, that if I dog that has been brought up to track and aprehend a suspect and it decides to not track, that dog will feel pressure from the handler to continue on the track. I don't care what that person types on the computer to put on the interent.

Most dogs are brought up thru motivation, it does not mean that the trainers don't use compulsion, aversaries, corrections, whatever you want to call them at some point in their training.

edited to add:

The Texas Task Force 1 of FEMA uses clicker training. A "clicker" trainer in Keller, TX who procures dogs for DPS (state police), Customs and some private explosive and narcotic detection companies imprints dogs for explosive and narcatic work with great success. Some of the above mentioned use clickers and some don't, but they all use use positive reinforcement to train.
you've missed the boat on this one too, imprinting is very impt especially to do motivationally, but its far, far, far, from having a polished detection dog
 

IliamnasQuest

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#75
May I step in here? Please? *LOL*

First, to the original poster .. a four month old puppy is a baby - literally. It may run around and be active and have attitude at times, but mentally it is still very much a baby. The primary things it needs at this time is socialization, safe maintenance and a bit of the basics - all done in a very positive manner so that this puppy can gain confidence and not become fearful of training overall. To use leash corrections (even "lightly tugging") and the frequent use of "no" is really setting yourself up for failure down the road.

While it may seem like making your pup mind is the most important thing, it really isn't something that you should train using corrections at this point. If you are using rewards properly, your pup will develop an eagerness for training and in the long run that will be a HUGE benefit to you. I would really encourage you to take a step back and remember that you're dealing with a very young mind.

As far as the rest of the discussion .. it seems that people are (again) arguing the level of correction. I haven't seen anyone advocating the use of harsh corrections in training. But, as always, the problem with advocating any corrections in training in an online forum is that people tend to overdo it with corrections. For most, it's much easier to see what their dog is doing "wrong" than to see what it is doing "right". I see people asking all the time how to fix a problem - one that generally they created themselves. And the fix they want is usually "how do I correct this?".

Because of the tendency for humans to use more correction than praise and reward, I am always very hesitant to recommend corrections to people online. Even in person, if I tell someone to use "eht" to stop a certain behavior, I almost always find that they start using "eht" for all sorts of things that could better be dealt with using a positive reinforcement method. Using corrections becomes the lazy man's way out. It takes more effort on the part of humans to be observant and to reinforce the behaviors they like than it does to just wait until the dog does something they don't like and then to throw in a correction.

I always have to raise an eyebrow when I see people arguing so vehemently about their right to use corrections. To me, that sends up a red flag .. corrections are MOSTLY unneccesary in training, IF the trainer is doing things properly. Those who depend on corrections a lot are (in my experience over the past decade or more) just plain lazy when it comes to training.

There are dogs out there that can be trained quite well using little or no corrections. It takes time, patience and good timing on the part of a trainer. But to me, a trainer who can mold the behavior of a dog without using physical aversives is a better trainer than one who always has to use some sort of leash correction or corrective collar in order to get the behaviors the way you want them to be. It very much depends on the type of dog, too. Herding breeds, sporting breeds, and many working breeds are not nearly as hard to train as some of the more independently-minded breeds. My schutzhund-line shepherds are much easier to mold (even with those high drives) than my chows are - by far! A good trainer adapts with each dog.

A little personal background here: I started out in the traditional Koehler-based training methods some 18 years ago now. I was good at corrections. I thought my dogs and I had the best relationships possible. But I always felt there was a better way, and even though I was earning titles and being "successful" I chose to research and learn about more positive training methods. I discovered that the relationships with my dogs was MUCH better when I stopped depending on my ability to correct and I started using high-level rewards. I've been to both extremes and I will tell you - positive training is much better. Yes, I do use corrections at times but very few physical corrections (especially for competition stuff - why should I give my dog a physical correction just so I can win a ribbon??).

And for those who think that the positive-trained dogs can't win .. my older shepherd came along at a time when I chose to try nearly 100% positive. Her first couple of years she was trained off-leash and with very few corrections (no physical, just an occasional "eht" or "no"). She earned her AKC CD in three straight shows with her third leg a 197 (out of 200). After earning her agility titles, I put her back into the obedience ring (with little practice) and she earned her CKC CD in three straight shows with her third leg a 196.5 (this was four years after the AKC CD). Last year I practiced twice and then took her into the rally ring and her scores were 97, 98 and a perfect score of 100. This year she's been in advanced twice, with scores of 98 and 99. She's now ten years old and she's NOT BURNT OUT like the dogs that get a lot of corrections (for proofing or whatever). I've continued to make things fun and rewarding.

Even my young chow who has been highly reinforced for her obedience work - with few corrections (what corrections she gets are for other things .. *L*) - last month went into the Novice B rally ring her very first time and scored a 98 (beating ten other dogs for first place). POSITIVE TRAINING WORKS, regardless if you're training a pet or training a competition animal. If it's not working, it's the human's fault and not the dog's.

I love my dogs, but I'm a realist. There are times when I tell them no. Today I bopped my young chow on the head and told her to knock it off because she was grumbling at my old girl (young one is 21 months, old one is nearly 15 years .. can we talk "hierarchy change" soon?). I generally let them work it out, but I won't allow the young one to do anything to hurt the old one and because she knows I'm boss, she responds and submits without argument. But yes, I did bop her on the head with my fingers. And if that doesn't work, I'll grab her ruff and pull her around, look into her face and say "listen, bitch .. I'm the boss!" .. *LOL* .. BUT .. this is not a harsh correction and it's done in order to keep the pack living together in harmony.

I think that it's a natural thing to have certain consequences to certain behaviors. In my little family pack here (and I know that "pack" bothers some people) I HAVE to be the leader and it's primarily kept that way because of the rules I have set down. But on occasion I will get a bit pushy in order to keep things on an even keel. Because they respect me, it doesn't take much.

But I don't think it's necessarily natural to expect a dog to heel, stay, make a perfect front on a recall and a perfect sit on a return to heel - and to use corrections in order to get those things. I've found that if I shape them properly in the first place, corrections aren't needed.

Okay, I'll quit babbling. I don't get here often these days (still too busy) and it just happens that I haven't been able to sleep and got online for a bit. Heading off to a dog show this weekend, have three dogs entered (rally novice, hope to move up to advanced with the young chow; rally advanced and hope to move up to excellent with the shepherd; and novice obedience with the middle chow, she needs two more legs for her CD). All very basic classes to me, but every qualifying score is a triumph with a chow! *LOL*

Okay .. everyone go hug their dogs and think about how you would like being yanked by the neck .. personally I'd prefer the treat ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
(cool Alaska, temps in the '60's .. I feel spoiled)
 

Gempress

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#76
I found the first article really interesting. I am happy to see the author had such success, yet came right out and said that motivational training also had disadvantages. Frankly, you don't see that often.

I am curious as to how he used the motivational training to teach bitework. I wish had had gone into more detail on that.
 
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#77
stags14 said:
You don't know all the facts... The only facts that are relavant for you are the ones that fit into your belief system... Go watch police dogs being trained and let me know what you see....
Police dog training has evolved so much over the past 10 years, away from the old "hard" methods...if you KNOW the facts...WHY is that? What do I see when a police dog is trained the "old way"...I see a selfish a$$ hole at the other end of a lead USING a life to serve human need. What do you see?

The positive only bunch are pushovers, soft, and more than likely tree-hugging, peace-loving hippies. Wow...that's just so sad...you don't know me at all yet you feel not only the need but somehow you're now justified in calling me names? How do I even respond to such ignorance?:confused:

Mother dogs will physically correct their puppies when they do something wrong. Mother dogs will not lavish an enormous amount of praise and treats on puppies when they do something right. Based on that undeniable fact of nature, please explain to me why it is not acceptable to give a gentle but firm leash correction when the dog does something wrong...
This statement is...I don't even know what to say...let's just call a slap a tap, a kick a bump, and now a leash correction gentle...you know darn well that leash corrections are almost never gentle, this was just for the sake of arguing to argue. And I'm not a mother dog....are you?

You have simply humanized dogs so that YOU feel good about your interaction with them with little regard for the animals actually being dogs.
I have never humanized dogs, if you've ever read any of my posts or knew anything about me or my background, you'd feel silly even making that statement.:mad:
Here's a FACT for you.
Dogs (puppies, adults, ferral, agressive) can be trained without physical punishment. I do it every day. Why that upsets you to the point where you need to lash out....just boggles the mind:(
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#78
IliamnasQuest said:
May I step in here? Please? *LOL*

First, to the original poster .. a four month old puppy is a baby - literally. It may run around and be active and have attitude at times, but mentally it is still very much a baby. The primary things it needs at this time is socialization, safe maintenance and a bit of the basics - all done in a very positive manner so that this puppy can gain confidence and not become fearful of training overall. To use leash corrections (even "lightly tugging") and the frequent use of "no" is really setting yourself up for failure down the road.

While it may seem like making your pup mind is the most important thing, it really isn't something that you should train using corrections at this point. If you are using rewards properly, your pup will develop an eagerness for training and in the long run that will be a HUGE benefit to you. I would really encourage you to take a step back and remember that you're dealing with a very young mind.

As far as the rest of the discussion .. it seems that people are (again) arguing the level of correction. I haven't seen anyone advocating the use of harsh corrections in training. But, as always, the problem with advocating any corrections in training in an online forum is that people tend to overdo it with corrections. For most, it's much easier to see what their dog is doing "wrong" than to see what it is doing "right". I see people asking all the time how to fix a problem - one that generally they created themselves. And the fix they want is usually "how do I correct this?".

Because of the tendency for humans to use more correction than praise and reward, I am always very hesitant to recommend corrections to people online. Even in person, if I tell someone to use "eht" to stop a certain behavior, I almost always find that they start using "eht" for all sorts of things that could better be dealt with using a positive reinforcement method. Using corrections becomes the lazy man's way out. It takes more effort on the part of humans to be observant and to reinforce the behaviors they like than it does to just wait until the dog does something they don't like and then to throw in a correction.

I always have to raise an eyebrow when I see people arguing so vehemently about their right to use corrections. To me, that sends up a red flag .. corrections are MOSTLY unneccesary in training, IF the trainer is doing things properly. Those who depend on corrections a lot are (in my experience over the past decade or more) just plain lazy when it comes to training.

There are dogs out there that can be trained quite well using little or no corrections. It takes time, patience and good timing on the part of a trainer. But to me, a trainer who can mold the behavior of a dog without using physical aversives is a better trainer than one who always has to use some sort of leash correction or corrective collar in order to get the behaviors the way you want them to be. It very much depends on the type of dog, too. Herding breeds, sporting breeds, and many working breeds are not nearly as hard to train as some of the more independently-minded breeds. My schutzhund-line shepherds are much easier to mold (even with those high drives) than my chows are - by far! A good trainer adapts with each dog.

A little personal background here: I started out in the traditional Koehler-based training methods some 18 years ago now. I was good at corrections. I thought my dogs and I had the best relationships possible. But I always felt there was a better way, and even though I was earning titles and being "successful" I chose to research and learn about more positive training methods. I discovered that the relationships with my dogs was MUCH better when I stopped depending on my ability to correct and I started using high-level rewards. I've been to both extremes and I will tell you - positive training is much better. Yes, I do use corrections at times but very few physical corrections (especially for competition stuff - why should I give my dog a physical correction just so I can win a ribbon??).

And for those who think that the positive-trained dogs can't win .. my older shepherd came along at a time when I chose to try nearly 100% positive. Her first couple of years she was trained off-leash and with very few corrections (no physical, just an occasional "eht" or "no"). She earned her AKC CD in three straight shows with her third leg a 197 (out of 200). After earning her agility titles, I put her back into the obedience ring (with little practice) and she earned her CKC CD in three straight shows with her third leg a 196.5 (this was four years after the AKC CD). Last year I practiced twice and then took her into the rally ring and her scores were 97, 98 and a perfect score of 100. This year she's been in advanced twice, with scores of 98 and 99. She's now ten years old and she's NOT BURNT OUT like the dogs that get a lot of corrections (for proofing or whatever). I've continued to make things fun and rewarding.

Even my young chow who has been highly reinforced for her obedience work - with few corrections (what corrections she gets are for other things .. *L*) - last month went into the Novice B rally ring her very first time and scored a 98 (beating ten other dogs for first place). POSITIVE TRAINING WORKS, regardless if you're training a pet or training a competition animal. If it's not working, it's the human's fault and not the dog's.

I love my dogs, but I'm a realist. There are times when I tell them no. Today I bopped my young chow on the head and told her to knock it off because she was grumbling at my old girl (young one is 21 months, old one is nearly 15 years .. can we talk "hierarchy change" soon?). I generally let them work it out, but I won't allow the young one to do anything to hurt the old one and because she knows I'm boss, she responds and submits without argument. But yes, I did bop her on the head with my fingers. And if that doesn't work, I'll grab her ruff and pull her around, look into her face and say "listen, bitch .. I'm the boss!" .. *LOL* .. BUT .. this is not a harsh correction and it's done in order to keep the pack living together in harmony.

I think that it's a natural thing to have certain consequences to certain behaviors. In my little family pack here (and I know that "pack" bothers some people) I HAVE to be the leader and it's primarily kept that way because of the rules I have set down. But on occasion I will get a bit pushy in order to keep things on an even keel. Because they respect me, it doesn't take much.

But I don't think it's necessarily natural to expect a dog to heel, stay, make a perfect front on a recall and a perfect sit on a return to heel - and to use corrections in order to get those things. I've found that if I shape them properly in the first place, corrections aren't needed.

Okay, I'll quit babbling. I don't get here often these days (still too busy) and it just happens that I haven't been able to sleep and got online for a bit. Heading off to a dog show this weekend, have three dogs entered (rally novice, hope to move up to advanced with the young chow; rally advanced and hope to move up to excellent with the shepherd; and novice obedience with the middle chow, she needs two more legs for her CD). All very basic classes to me, but every qualifying score is a triumph with a chow! *LOL*

Okay .. everyone go hug their dogs and think about how you would like being yanked by the neck .. personally I'd prefer the treat ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
(cool Alaska, temps in the '60's .. I feel spoiled)
So many fantastic points on this post Melanie...I want to highlight so many but I have to get to work...I particularly loved what you said about what you will and will not do to win a ribbon..:)
I'm off to hug a tree..;) the hippy that I am...:D
 
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#80
dr2little said:
So many fantastic points on this post Melanie...I want to highlight so many but I have to get to work...I particularly loved what you said about what you will and will not do to win a ribbon..:)
I'm off to hug a tree..;) the hippy that I am...:D
Yep - you have no clue.
 

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