Cesar Milan's Dog Training collar
- Thread starter Tazwell
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From my research, and my observation of hundreds of dogs that have come through rescue, this is my thoughts on the matter of the alpha roll and why I believe it is useless for training purposes (and this is why I disagree with Ceasar Milan):
There is a difference between what we are trying to teach dogs, and what dogs are trying to teach each other when they correct. A dog usually isn't trying to convey anything more complex than "Stop bugging me" or "this is mine". We are teaching our dogs more complex behaviors. For example, I want to teach my dog to stop acting like a freak when strangers come over. This involves addressing her fear issues, and her learned reaction (doorbell = barkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarketc.)
Another example: Dog gets excited in public, and jumps on people. Again, you need to teach a complex set of behaviors. Teach not to jump. Work on obedience with distractions. An Alpha roll would not teach these things.
And I have never seen a dog physically grab another dog with its teeth and roll it. (Or do they use their paws?) I have seen a dog growl and snap at another dog who then went belly up on its own. This is from observing many, many adult dogs of many breeds interact in play groups that have come through rescue from all walks of life.
(and I apologize for seeming condescending in my other post, I was not intending to)
There is a difference between what we are trying to teach dogs, and what dogs are trying to teach each other when they correct. A dog usually isn't trying to convey anything more complex than "Stop bugging me" or "this is mine". We are teaching our dogs more complex behaviors. For example, I want to teach my dog to stop acting like a freak when strangers come over. This involves addressing her fear issues, and her learned reaction (doorbell = barkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarketc.)
Another example: Dog gets excited in public, and jumps on people. Again, you need to teach a complex set of behaviors. Teach not to jump. Work on obedience with distractions. An Alpha roll would not teach these things.
And I have never seen a dog physically grab another dog with its teeth and roll it. (Or do they use their paws?) I have seen a dog growl and snap at another dog who then went belly up on its own. This is from observing many, many adult dogs of many breeds interact in play groups that have come through rescue from all walks of life.
(and I apologize for seeming condescending in my other post, I was not intending to)
I actually volunteered for a rescue who used shock collars. They are one of the ONLY dog rescues in my city...so I do still support them, since they rescue hundreds of dogs! But I won't be volunteering there anymore.
They may have gotten rid of them though, cause they were only using them to please a neighbor who enjoyed complaining about the noise.
They may have gotten rid of them though, cause they were only using them to please a neighbor who enjoyed complaining about the noise.
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You bring up a fantastic point. To tell you the truth, I've never seen the alpha roll either...
However, Kona does something that is interesting to me. Almost every dog that she meets, she stands with her head and tail high, and puts her paw on their back, and kinda pins them (if they are small enough to be pinned). She'll do this a few times before playing...
What do you think it is? Her way of saying she is boss?
Anywho, I wouldn't put that crap on any dog of mine if you paid me. But then again, I view my dogs as equals, not a lesser species.
However, Kona does something that is interesting to me. Almost every dog that she meets, she stands with her head and tail high, and puts her paw on their back, and kinda pins them (if they are small enough to be pinned). She'll do this a few times before playing...
What do you think it is? Her way of saying she is boss?
Anywho, I wouldn't put that crap on any dog of mine if you paid me. But then again, I view my dogs as equals, not a lesser species.
And...I have, back when I had Akitas I'd see it pretty danged often, too.
Akitas have what I call the "elephant stomp" which is...the other dog is grabbed either via front legs or teeth...put the other dog on the ground...and then the Akita will pin the dog with it's front feet almost as tho it is attempting to crush it...like an elephant does with a person when they go apesh*t on theose videos. Depending on the dog it can be a lifethreatening situation...OR a mere dominance gesture that ends when the other dog submits totally.
I'd never seen a sensitive man either...didn't mean they didn't exist...having met one I immediately married him.
Akitas have what I call the "elephant stomp" which is...the other dog is grabbed either via front legs or teeth...put the other dog on the ground...and then the Akita will pin the dog with it's front feet almost as tho it is attempting to crush it...like an elephant does with a person when they go apesh*t on theose videos. Depending on the dog it can be a lifethreatening situation...OR a mere dominance gesture that ends when the other dog submits totally.
I'd never seen a sensitive man either...didn't mean they didn't exist...having met one I immediately married him.
Wo0t! Way to go HBH! LMAO.
Oz would do that too Angel Chicken. He will sniff their face, and front legs and shoulders, dance out of the way if they try to sniff his butt, and then procede to flip his butt around while placing a paw on the other dogs back.
I've had to interrupt this, and find a different way to teach him to greet other dogs after we got attacked. He was worse meeting dogs after that, so, teaching him to NOT put his paws on their back was the name of the game. Because after that, if he got to the part where he put his paws on their backs, if they made eye contact, he would grab their face in his front teeth and try to pin them or shake them. I'm not sure if he was really trying to pin them, or just have a "I'm badder, bigger, and meaner than you too" scuffle.
Whatever he was doing, he's stopped, and gone back to greeting like he owns the world, but not trying to eat them if they look at him. Lots and LOTS of PR did that.
Oz would do that too Angel Chicken. He will sniff their face, and front legs and shoulders, dance out of the way if they try to sniff his butt, and then procede to flip his butt around while placing a paw on the other dogs back.
I've had to interrupt this, and find a different way to teach him to greet other dogs after we got attacked. He was worse meeting dogs after that, so, teaching him to NOT put his paws on their back was the name of the game. Because after that, if he got to the part where he put his paws on their backs, if they made eye contact, he would grab their face in his front teeth and try to pin them or shake them. I'm not sure if he was really trying to pin them, or just have a "I'm badder, bigger, and meaner than you too" scuffle.
Whatever he was doing, he's stopped, and gone back to greeting like he owns the world, but not trying to eat them if they look at him. Lots and LOTS of PR did that.
Great Cesar loves dogs and so do my neighbors whose dog runs loose and my uncle who beat his dogs to teach them everything and never praises and so does the guy who thinks his dogs are trying to control him and think he must scare and dominate them into their place.
Cesar loves dogs and that's great but he has no place IMO training them (sorry, "rehabbing") them. He saves dogs from death, wonderful, why not start up a rescue or actually educate yourself in dog behavior and psychology.
He IMO is abusive but because he is not smacking, kicking otherwise physically harming the dog it is not seen as such (although apparently society has been desensitized to yanking a dog around my the neck on a collar, it's not abusive that's what collars are for). nobody even thinks about what must be going on in that dogs mind when he is thrown on the ground and held down when in a high state of panic or anger, all they see is results.
He could save the dogs without abusing them mentally but he does not because he does not know, I'm sure he's a great guy and loves dogs but he should not IMO be training them, he is harming them and I believe creating unstable dogs who appear to be happy when actually in a high state of stress, and fear with possible aggression being hidden because the dog is afraid to show signs of his aggression, he'll just hide it until he either forgets he's afraid of you anymore or somebody pushes him too far and he simply can't hold back and at that point you get a dog who has been slowly allowing the aggression to build until is is sooo high he can't hold it any longer. It would have been easier to deal with the aggression when it was just a growl.
All I know is that when I was at the meet and greet for my rescue and the little boy with the dad came up and the little boy said "we want to get this puppy, we watch the dog whisperer every day" my stomach turned because I didn't want them to wreck this bright eyed puppy by punishing his every mistake and destroying his ability to investigate, and be curious and free thinking.
Cesar loves dogs and that's great but he has no place IMO training them (sorry, "rehabbing") them. He saves dogs from death, wonderful, why not start up a rescue or actually educate yourself in dog behavior and psychology.
He IMO is abusive but because he is not smacking, kicking otherwise physically harming the dog it is not seen as such (although apparently society has been desensitized to yanking a dog around my the neck on a collar, it's not abusive that's what collars are for). nobody even thinks about what must be going on in that dogs mind when he is thrown on the ground and held down when in a high state of panic or anger, all they see is results.
He could save the dogs without abusing them mentally but he does not because he does not know, I'm sure he's a great guy and loves dogs but he should not IMO be training them, he is harming them and I believe creating unstable dogs who appear to be happy when actually in a high state of stress, and fear with possible aggression being hidden because the dog is afraid to show signs of his aggression, he'll just hide it until he either forgets he's afraid of you anymore or somebody pushes him too far and he simply can't hold back and at that point you get a dog who has been slowly allowing the aggression to build until is is sooo high he can't hold it any longer. It would have been easier to deal with the aggression when it was just a growl.
All I know is that when I was at the meet and greet for my rescue and the little boy with the dad came up and the little boy said "we want to get this puppy, we watch the dog whisperer every day" my stomach turned because I didn't want them to wreck this bright eyed puppy by punishing his every mistake and destroying his ability to investigate, and be curious and free thinking.
Maxy...people who LOVE dogs...do not beat them..so you are contradicting yourself. People talk about LOVE all the time and mean "possess" or "control" women do it to men...men do it to women...parents do it to children.
"I" know what it is...to LOVE a dog. I also believe that Cesar knows what it is to LOVE a dog. You and I do not have to agree on that. I am pleased as punch either way.
I might also mention, anti Cesar folks can be their own worst enemy when it comes to discussing the man. I don't see why the long knives need to come out when a spreader, and some honey butter would probably work a lot better.
"I" know what it is...to LOVE a dog. I also believe that Cesar knows what it is to LOVE a dog. You and I do not have to agree on that. I am pleased as punch either way.
I might also mention, anti Cesar folks can be their own worst enemy when it comes to discussing the man. I don't see why the long knives need to come out when a spreader, and some honey butter would probably work a lot better.
I'm not going to get into the Cesar debate, but...
as far as the original post, that looks like a big, ugly waste of money. Seriously. I don't really understand the purpose of the neck brace. Get a slip collar for $5, or a flat or rolled collar, adjust it properly, and there ya go! Why can't he just educate people on how to properly fit a collar? D: Oh yeah, that wouldn't make tonnes of money.
as far as the original post, that looks like a big, ugly waste of money. Seriously. I don't really understand the purpose of the neck brace. Get a slip collar for $5, or a flat or rolled collar, adjust it properly, and there ya go! Why can't he just educate people on how to properly fit a collar? D: Oh yeah, that wouldn't make tonnes of money.
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If the collar wasn't outrageously priced, I might have tried it out.
It might look uncomfortable. But tell a dog who gets no walks at all and is cooped up inside a house all day that the a collar that could be his golden ticket to go out for walks "looks" too uncomfortable to even try. Sorry buddy, back to being cooped up!
Same with prong collars. My dog would come running up to me with a wildly wagging tail as soon as he heard the prong being pulled out. Time to go for a walk! YIPPEE!
It might look uncomfortable. But tell a dog who gets no walks at all and is cooped up inside a house all day that the a collar that could be his golden ticket to go out for walks "looks" too uncomfortable to even try. Sorry buddy, back to being cooped up!
Same with prong collars. My dog would come running up to me with a wildly wagging tail as soon as he heard the prong being pulled out. Time to go for a walk! YIPPEE!
HBH, my uncle did love his dogs though. He had two, Jessie and Jose a lab mix and golden. He simply believed that is how you teach dogs, dogs need to be taught the rules and that is how you do it. When Jose ran away he looked for hours, crying because he was afraid he had lost her when she got back he ran over hugged her and then beat her so she wouldn't do it again. Yes it's sick and wrong but he thought it was right (and calls people who don't believe in punishment groovies 
he's stubborn as he!l and listens to no one) and I promise he loves his dogs with all his heart, it still sickens me. He's not as bad with Phoebe though thank God, they still housebroke he by scruffing her, shoving her face in it and smacking her a bunch, took them a year because she was hiding it for months under the couch. you spoke about it not being love but control over the other dog or person. You don't think that is what Cesar is doing? His methods say to me that he wants to control every movement of his dog he does not want his dogs to be making their own choices he wants them to be completely under his control and wants to dominate and take away their free will, they should just be as he wants them. And I am sure he still loves them but IMO it's still wrong to mentally abuse an animal by making him afraid to make his own decisions.
Since I can't help but get angry at Cesar when he is brought up and since this thread was not meant to be a debate I should really really stop looking and I will, I'm sorry for doing this to this thread.
he's stubborn as he!l and listens to no one) and I promise he loves his dogs with all his heart, it still sickens me. He's not as bad with Phoebe though thank God, they still housebroke he by scruffing her, shoving her face in it and smacking her a bunch, took them a year because she was hiding it for months under the couch. you spoke about it not being love but control over the other dog or person. You don't think that is what Cesar is doing? His methods say to me that he wants to control every movement of his dog he does not want his dogs to be making their own choices he wants them to be completely under his control and wants to dominate and take away their free will, they should just be as he wants them. And I am sure he still loves them but IMO it's still wrong to mentally abuse an animal by making him afraid to make his own decisions.Since I can't help but get angry at Cesar when he is brought up and since this thread was not meant to be a debate I should really really stop looking and I will, I'm sorry for doing this to this thread.
The topic of whether or not to let dogs think for themselves sometimes confuses me. Weren't many breeds bred to think for themselves at times (hounds, herding dogs, guardian breeds?). But maybe with breeds not being used for what they once were, having a dog with a measure of independence is no longer acceptable?
Ok.
I am not reading this whole thread. Simply put, Cesar sucks, yes.
But I "alpha roll" my dog - ie, if I approach him in a slightly threatening way he rolls over BY HIMSELF and knows that yes, I am leader. I don't raise a hand like I'm going to strike him, or anything - I just stamp a foot and loom over him and he rolls. I DO NOT do it often - just when he's being particularly often. I have never taken Cesar's word to be true and didn't even know he alpha rolled before reading this thread. I've always known wolves don't roll other wolves but that they roll on their own.
I am not reading this whole thread. Simply put, Cesar sucks, yes.
But I "alpha roll" my dog - ie, if I approach him in a slightly threatening way he rolls over BY HIMSELF and knows that yes, I am leader. I don't raise a hand like I'm going to strike him, or anything - I just stamp a foot and loom over him and he rolls. I DO NOT do it often - just when he's being particularly often. I have never taken Cesar's word to be true and didn't even know he alpha rolled before reading this thread. I've always known wolves don't roll other wolves but that they roll on their own.
