Cesar Milan's Dog Training collar

[Tazwell]

The reason I've come to not like Cesar very much is because I think he's overrated I guess. How did he become so popular in the first place?

Inexperienced Dog owners take his word for gospel. They think they can handle any problems, and they do use Alpha rolling. They think everything can be done with dominating their dogs. I see this ALL the time at Petsmart, where I work. "Well, the dog whisperer says this!" "If I let him jump on me, or look me in the eye, he's dominating me!" "I just roll him over and pin him down whenever he does that. That's why he's growling at you."

I guess that's nothing to hold against him, as a dog trainer (certainly NOT the worst methods I've seen dog trainers use.) but not methods I would choose with my own dogs.

 

[Juicy]

My bitches roll their pups...actually. Hardly an uber dominant breed...Beagles. But they do it...just the same. The pup is given a chance and if they continue to act a fool they are physically rolled and held down.

Ditto over here too. Happens in when the dogs are playing too I've noticed.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I know someone who'd personally worked with him "before fame"...he saved this man's PB.

He loves dogs...loves them. He is not the devil incarnate. He may not be anyone I'd call...but he is a person who loves dogs.

My only real beef is his support of Mandatory s/n. That to me...is a deal breaker...but again...he feels that because he loves dogs...esp PB's and he really really...wants to save them from society.

 

[Juicy]

I know someone who'd personally worked with him "before fame"...he saved this man's PB.

He loves dogs...loves them. He is not the devil incarnate. He may not be anyone I'd call...but he is a person who loves dogs.

My only real beef is his support of Mandatory s/n. That to me...is a deal breaker...but again...he feels that because he loves dogs...esp PB's and he really really...wants to save them from society.

:hail::hail::hail:

 

[release the hounds]

My bitches roll their pups...actually. Hardly an uber dominant breed...Beagles. But they do it...just the same. The pup is given a chance and if they continue to act a fool they are physically rolled and held down.

I see the same thing as well all the time.

The only reason I stay away from the roll myself and am an advocate of everyone else avoiding it, is most people will just get themselves bitten because they aren't physically able to do it, or don't really know what to do other than grab the dog and try and roll it. When it fights back, and a strong dog will, they don't know what to do and get bitten, and the dog is now a notch stronger in its own mind

 

[perla123]

What do you guys think of Victoria stilwell. She is the lady from it's me or the dog. I realy like her show i use to watch it every day in the mornings. And I think her methods are better than the ones that Cesar has.

I agree with some of you his methods are kinda rough sometimes. I remmember ther was a show where a guy had a problem with a HA dog and what he did was force the dog to lay down to show him that was in a higher position that the dog was. the dog was growling at him at first until he finaly pin him down on the floor. Not only that he ask the owner to do the same and he almost got bitten:yikes:. I don't think that I would do something like that and put my dog under that kind of stress.

But like I sid I do like Victorias show

 

[youhavenoidea]

Dogs do not alpha roll other dogs. Dogs roll over and show their bellies on their own. The thought that dogs alpha roll is based on faulty wolf studies (these wolves were studied in captivity, not in their natural habitat). Please do some research.

This is a good place to start: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Granted, but in order for anyone to understand what I meant, I used the name ("alpha roll"), misnomer or not, that most people would use to identify the action. Aside from the fact that I never claimed that dogs DO roll each other, so thanks both for putting words in my mouth, and for the condescension.

The reason a human sometimes has to entice a dog into displaying the behavior that they would normally do on their own to another dog? WE ARE PEOPLE, NOT DOGS. A puppy will obviously not view you the same, of react to you the same as it will its mother unless shown you expect that reaction, because hmmmmm, a human is NOT its mother.

Used sparingly, carefully, and with education and experience behind it, as I have previously stated - methods that loosely mimic litter lessons can be a useful and very effective PATHWAY to more advanced training. And I'm quite sure I made it obvious that CHUCKING a dog down a la Cesar, is specifically NOT what I meant.

I've done plenty of research, and am quite experienced in training animals, thanks.

 

[youhavenoidea]

My bitches roll their pups...actually. Hardly an uber dominant breed...Beagles. But they do it...just the same. The pup is given a chance and if they continue to act a fool they are physically rolled and held down.

LMAO @ "act a fool". LOL

 

[HoundedByHounds]

hey you gotta paint a picture with words, ya know? LOL.

 

[youhavenoidea]

Pls Don't alpha roll Slade!! Esp if you want his trust and do dog sports. NO behaviouralist or trainer worth their salt will tell you this is a good idea. For the most part dogs do not roll others (none of my moms have rolled pups on purpose.) and it is an extreme threat. If you want to rule your dog by force (ie you need to respect me cause I am bigger and meaner than you) you will always need the threat of force. If you use your brain, then as long as you are smarter you will be respected

I respect your opinion on this, and while no one will agree on everything, and the context of anything is hard to convey online, especially when something is used as an example not worthy of the emphasis that may inadvertently receive . . .

Please rest assured that my training methods very very much are based on trust and positive reinforcement. Weims are too emotionally sensitive a breed to rule by force. And that's not my intention anyway.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've rolled Slade, and at 11 weeks, he no longer exhibits any of the behavior that warranted it in the first place. I realize that my expression of "would not hesitate" was likely misemployed in this situation, as it presents a picture not accurate to my intentions.

As I stated in a previous post, I believe in such "people acting as animals" tactics ONLY when employed in a very controlled, experienced, and non-threatening / damaging way (yes, it is possible), and ONLY during certain developmental stages in which it becomes an effective "bridge" into more complex training strategies.

 

[corgi_love]

I know someone who'd personally worked with him "before fame"...he saved this man's PB.

He loves dogs...loves them. He is not the devil incarnate. He may not be anyone I'd call...but he is a person who loves dogs.

Completely agree. Any person that tries to save and help a dog that most people would simply put to sleep has a lot of respect from me.

 

[Dekka]

I was just coming from a place where IMO Slade is too young to roll. By that I mean even taking its 'ethical use' aside-rolling is a pretty serious punishment. Is it fair to punish a pup that doesn't 110% know the behaviour first. (would you spank a 6 month old human?)

You will simply suppress the behaviour, not cure it. Punishment can work in very limited applications. But the animal has to be very clear on what the punishment is attached too. I personally never punish where the dog can associate me, or any other human with it.

 

[youhavenoidea]

I was just coming from a place where IMO Slade is too young to roll. By that I mean even taking its 'ethical use' aside-rolling is a pretty serious punishment. Is it fair to punish a pup that doesn't 110% know the behaviour first. (would you spank a 6 month old human?)

You will simply suppress the behaviour, not cure it. Punishment can work in very limited applications. But the animal has to be very clear on what the punishment is attached too. I personally never punish where the dog can associate me, or any other human with it.

It's such a tough stance to verbalize, since I don't see it (in the manner in which I've sparingly employed it) nor use it as punishment. I sooner try to have the dog cause themselves the "punishment" than have me dole it out. Which is how I mean "gentle" in the employment in this case.

I guess it's hard to imagine, when there is such a typical picture of "alpha roll" as far as most people are concerned.

A "roll" with Slade, has occurred for example as my soothingly, slowly, and gently lying him down (by gently sweeping his legs out from under him while leaning him against a couch) and placing my hand, very unaggressively on his chest (not throat) while quietly asking him to "settle". Then releasing him to lots of praise and petting the INSTANT his body relaxes and he meets my request for a "settle".

Hell, some people might not even consider that a roll for all I know - but that's what I meant by there being great variation between what Cesar does, something somewhat similar, and something that can be helpful.

Now, when I say "settle", Slade plops down without physical intervention, and gives me "goofy face" while waiting to receive the lovins he's come to expect with the preliminary training.

Hardly could be considered damaging, or trust-breaking, no?

 

[Renee750il]

YHNI, that sounds similar to something I found helped Shiva when she was young.

She was very insecure and had some real fear issues. She'd go into panic mode. I found that by easing her over like that while I talked to her would allow her to relax and focus on me. I have no idea why it worked with her, it just did.

Shiva's the only dog I've ever used that on, though. Kharma would think I'd lost my alleged mind, although if I hold Tallulah in my arms, on her back, she'll usually chill out.

 

[Dekka]

That is not really an alpha roll. We use that in puppy classes to desensitize them to being held confiningly. An alpha roll is used as punishment, to exert 'dominance' over the dog. Its like holding a child who is worked up and getting them to settle. Very different IMO than an alpha roll.

(I still don't use them on my own puppies as I find it wasn't as successful as other methods. But I don't think it cruel)

 

[youhavenoidea]

YHNI, that sounds similar to something I found helped Shiva when she was young.

She was very insecure and had some real fear issues. She'd go into panic mode. I found that by easing her over like that while I talked to her would allow her to relax and focus on me. I have no idea why it worked with her, it just did.

Shiva's the only dog I've ever used that on, though. Kharma would think I'd lost my alleged mind, although if I hold Tallulah in my arms, on her back, she'll usually chill out.

Slade's pretty much the only one who's ever needed it in my case too. Granted dogs are a unified species, but breed can play such a HUGE role in the approach. Weims are tricky in the sense that they need a firm hand and ironclad boundaries, but in a nurturing and non-aggressive way. They can be very sensitive, and eventually resentful dogs. They're not for the faint of heart, that's for sure, and that's unfortunately why they've gotten such a bad wrap for being neurotic.

Slade IS my first Weim, so I'm training in the happy medium between the extremes of force and bribery, in the best way that works for us. I have done a ludicrous amount of research in all my years of loving the breed, and have formulated an approach that I feel will have the most success.

I can't say we've gone wrong yet. He's 11 weeks old (as of yesterday), will "sit", "down", "stay" and "come", both indoors and out (on his "home turf" or otherwise), walks brilliantly on a loose leash, needs not more than a firm "no" for him to cease undesirable behavior, will (though reluctantly) "leave it" on command when attempting to mouth something unsavory, goes "in your room" (crate) on command, and as stated before, will "settle" on command almost entirely reliably.

I'm very proud of how he's coming along.

 

[Renee750il]

It is totally different from the old alpha roll stuff, Dekka. It's a shame that term gets thrown around so promiscuously . . . kind of like referring to "aggressive" dogs. Most of the time when the term is used it's completely inappropriate.

Granted dogs are a unified species, but breed can play such a HUGE role in the approach.

Shiva and Kharma are both Filas. Granted, Shiva is from Brazilian show lines on her sire's side and mostly show-type lines on her dam's, whereas Kharma's lines adhere more solidly to working and working-type lines, but I do think the differences are more individual than breed specific overall.

Even the differences between Kharma and Buffy, who was Kharma's half-sister and aunt are there. In many ways, Kharma shares characteristics that Buffy held, but there are things I do with Kharma that I wouldn't have done with Buffy, and vice versa, because the individual dog would've responded to me like I'd lost my wits

 

[youhavenoidea]

That is not really an alpha roll. We use that in puppy classes to desensitize them to being held confiningly. An alpha roll is used as punishment, to exert 'dominance' over the dog. Its like holding a child who is worked up and getting them to settle. Very different IMO than an alpha roll.

(I still don't use them on my own puppies as I find it wasn't as successful as other methods. But I don't think it cruel)

Well that's part of the problem then - we got lost in definition. LOL

Just a question of my not having another clear "name" to give it, aside from a roll with emphasis on gentleness. It's so hard to convey things in writing sometimes, even when you're as concise as possible.

 

[Punkygirl0101]

I love Victoria Stillwell! Her methods work well, and are not threatening!

I don't dislike Ceasar, I agree he loves dogs! And he has saved plenty of dogs (Aren't all of his rescues?). BUT I do not agree with his training method. I am more for positive reinforcement and I don't believe his is positive. Its very negative.

 

[Dekka]

I always assumed CM loved dogs. I know people who put e collars on you pups (and train exclusively with shocks) who love dogs. Some of them rescue too. That does not mean that I think that the fact they love dogs and save them makes what they do to them a good thing.