Cesar Milan's Dog Training collar

HoundedByHounds

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#21
Nolu...everyone's determination of quality product is different I'd wager. As for customer cost vs what it costs to make things??

Many of us here pay for products that cost more than double what it costs to make them...from my Levi's jeans...to my kiddos Crayola Crayons and Littles Pet Shop toys. they do so for the name...the brand...or some perceived "quality". Not everyone perceives that quality but as long as some facet of the consumer world does...*shrug*

I have no problem with someone inventing something and trying to make money...even when they already HAVE plenty. That's America. I only get jealous that it's not me with the ideas.

IMO the man could invent a spray to dissolve poop...and some here would not buy it because his name is on it. To each...their own.
 

Maxy24

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#24
Just been wondering... Why do a lot of Chazzers dislike Cesar/His training methods?

I've watched his show a few times, and his training seems to work...? And it his methods don't seem cruel.. So, enlighten me..I'm just curious.
He makes dogs afraid to mess up, therefore the dogs are living in a world of constant stress. Read a few books on dog body language like The Other End of the Leash and then on calming signals (you can probably find that stuff online as well but Turid Rugaas has a book on them that is supposed to be good). Calming Signals are used by a dog to say "I'm not a threat" and they use them when they are being threatened to try and make the person or dog calm down because they are being scary. read: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

If you watch Cesar's show and watch the DOG you will notice dogs giving these signals left and right. unlike Cesar says, the dogs are not suddenly thinking what a great leader he is they are scared of the aggressive man and would like him to calm down. At the end of one episode a Weim I believe was offered a treat which he would not eat, dogs under extreme stress refuse food. plus that article which I read a while ago (thanks Doberluv!) mainly talks about why Cesar's methods make no sense so even if you can't believe that he is mentally and emotionally harming dogs you should at least be able to see that he is an uneducated dog trainer who knows very little about dogs.

Cesar simply punishes a dog until he is afraid to think for himself. like with his dog aggression cases, dog lunges at another dog so he grabs him and throws him on the ground and hold him there, then repeats over and over until the dog is warn out, afraid of the scary man attacking him and so he gives up, he has no idea what to do. So he lays there. fixed right? no he still hates that dog walking past, still has NO idea of what to do but is afraid to do anything at all because you might attack him again. So he stands there, stressed as can be, wanting with all his little heart to attack that dog but scared with all his little heart that you will attack him. Is that what you want? an aggressive dog to afraid to act but still angry and now stressed and scared as well? OR you could teach your dog to like other dogs through socialization and desensitization or in the case of true DA dogs can teach them WHAT to do INSTEAD of attacking the other dog. By simply letting him know what to do you can eliminate the stress. Teach him to look straight at you when he sees a dog, that way he will not be worried about messing up (he has been taught through Positive reinforcement that looking at you is what he needs to do, no guess work with fear of punishment) and will not be looking at the dog so his aggression should lessen, he can't attack another dog is he is not looking at or facing him. plus the dog is focused on the command so he is not as occupied with "get that dog" thoughts. therefore dog is not stressed. of course that actually takes WORK and for some people they would rather just punish the dog until he stops and not think about how their dog feels about it.

I shouldn't have said anything because I'm afraid we might start a debate but I can't sit by and let people think what Cesar does is harmless. Sure physically maybe but remember dogs can think and do have emotions, they even express them so listen to the poor dog being wrestled to the ground or jerked around by the throat or otherwise intimidated by the aggressive, intimidating man.

Cesar makes my blood boil :mad:
 

youhavenoidea

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#25
He makes dogs afraid to mess up, therefore the dogs are living in a world of constant stress. Read a few books on dog body language like The Other End of the Leash and then on calming signals (you can probably find that stuff online as well but Turid Rugaas has a book on them that is supposed to be good). Calming Signals are used by a dog to say "I'm not a threat" and they use them when they are being threatened to try and make the person or dog calm down because they are being scary. read: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

If you watch Cesar's show and watch the DOG you will notice dogs giving these signals left and right. unlike Cesar says, the dogs are not suddenly thinking what a great leader he is they are scared of the aggressive man and would like him to calm down. At the end of one episode a Weim I believe was offered a treat which he would not eat, dogs under extreme stress refuse food. plus that article which I read a while ago (thanks Doberluv!) mainly talks about why Cesar's methods make no sense so even if you can't believe that he is mentally and emotionally harming dogs you should at least be able to see that he is an uneducated dog trainer who knows very little about dogs.

Cesar simply punishes a dog until he is afraid to think for himself. like with his dog aggression cases, dog lunges at another dog so he grabs him and throws him on the ground and hold him there, then repeats over and over until the dog is warn out, afraid of the scary man attacking him and so he gives up, he has no idea what to do. So he lays there. fixed right? no he still hates that dog walking past, still has NO idea of what to do but is afraid to do anything at all because you might attack him again. So he stands there, stressed as can be, wanting with all his little heart to attack that dog but scared with all his little heart that you will attack him. Is that what you want? an aggressive dog to afraid to act but still angry and now stressed and scared as well? OR you could teach your dog to like other dogs through socialization and desensitization or in the case of true DA dogs can teach them WHAT to do INSTEAD of attacking the other dog. By simply letting him know what to do you can eliminate the stress. Teach him to look straight at you when he sees a dog, that way he will not be worried about messing up (he has been taught through Positive reinforcement that looking at you is what he needs to do, no guess work with fear of punishment) and will not be looking at the dog so his aggression should lessen, he can't attack another dog is he is not looking at or facing him. plus the dog is focused on the command so he is not as occupied with "get that dog" thoughts. therefore dog is not stressed. of course that actually takes WORK and for some people they would rather just punish the dog until he stops and not think about how their dog feels about it.

I shouldn't have said anything because I'm afraid we might start a debate but I can't sit by and let people think what Cesar does is harmless. Sure physically maybe but remember dogs can think and do have emotions, they even express them so listen to the poor dog being wrestled to the ground or jerked around by the throat or otherwise intimidated by the aggressive, intimidating man.

Cesar makes my blood boil :mad:

I'm not a fan either; for much of the same reasons you aren't. In a select very few cases, some of his tactics can be viewed as effective in a case of a dog needing SEVERE rehab - not TRAINING.

I bought one of his books, just to give it all the benefit of the doubt, before I decided if I truly dislike him, or if it's his TV persona I don't like, and it only served to solidify my opinion of him. If he isn't stating the obvious in regards to dog behavior, he's touting way-too-simplistic, and way-too-aggressive techniques.

The part that scares me the most? That people don't even see that his tactics are volatile and questionable even IN the situation of a dog in need of severe rehab, as I stated before. Regular everyday Joes watching his show, think this is the way to TRAIN their untroubled dog, in every day life. That's how your dog will become neurotic! Not how you'll teach him anything!

He does more damage than good, as far as I'm concerned.


And don't get me wrong - I'm firm in my training, and demand a lot . . . I won't hesitate to alpha roll Slade if he's very unruly. But I do it carefully, sparingly, gently, and effectively - TRULY in the way his mother disciplined him. I DO NOT bully my dog, and I wouldn't expect to make millions advocating that others should.

Just my two cents.
 

lizzybeth727

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#26
I'm not a fan of Cesar, but I will say I'm mildly impressed with this collar. It IS true that pulling the collar high up on a dog's neck - especially a strong, tall dog with a longish neck - is much more effective as far as controlling the pulling than a collar down by the dog's shoulders. It's simple leverage. But it's very difficult to keep the collar up on the neck, because as soon as it loosens when the dog is walking nicely, it's going to slip down on the neck.

I'm actually a little surprised that something like this didn't come out sooner. And a little sad I didn't think of it first.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#27
You Know Babs Woodhouse who is doubtless another favorite target here, lol...used the high collar MOST effectively loooooong ago.

They in fact used to make a special choke chain called "The Woodhouse" with more rounded O like rings so you could in fact...buckle it back on itself the way she did. I have used one and it is a WONDERFUL tool. It stays right where you put it.

The chains they have now...the links are too tight and oval...to clip back on itself...bummer because that worked pretty well with large dogs.
 

Tazwell

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#28
I certainly didn't mean to turn this into a Cesar-Bashing thread, I just thought the collar looked bizarre. I can't say I've ever had a problem keeping a choke or Limited choke collar high up on a dog's neck (I especially never had this problem with the limited choke collars, which I prefer anyway...)... and I thought this was one crazy-looking device.

I can't imagine walking an insanely-behaving dog on that collar, it would probably be so uncomfortable for that dog! It looks like it would feel much like a neck brace, or like those neck-stretching things some african tribes used...
 

Suzzie

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#30
i like cesar, i guess i'm in the minority. i guess i figure anybody who can save dogs from being put to sleep is okay in my book. but that's just me... i don't agree with quite a few of the training tactics I see people using, either. welcome to america.

his collar is certainly interesting, but i'm not a fan of dogs having stuff around their necks anymore, not since popper pulled so hard he hurt his own windpipe... i like the sporn harnesses or a gentle leader much better.
 

Sweet72947

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#31
And don't get me wrong - I'm firm in my training, and demand a lot . . . I won't hesitate to alpha roll Slade if he's very unruly. But I do it carefully, sparingly, gently, and effectively - TRULY in the way his mother disciplined him. I DO NOT bully my dog, and I wouldn't expect to make millions advocating that others should.

Just my two cents.
Dogs do not alpha roll other dogs. Dogs roll over and show their bellies on their own. The thought that dogs alpha roll is based on faulty wolf studies (these wolves were studied in captivity, not in their natural habitat). Please do some research.

This is a good place to start: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
 

HoundedByHounds

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#32
My bitches roll their pups...actually. Hardly an uber dominant breed...Beagles. But they do it...just the same. The pup is given a chance and if they continue to act a fool they are physically rolled and held down.
 

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#33
I, too, am a fan of Ceasars. I've read his books, seen all his shows, and I'm a believer. I've typed too many long posts today, and I have a headache, but I may come back to this thread and explain my reasoning.
 
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#34
We've had some good discussions/debates on the alpha roll question before with input from some excellent trainers and others knowledgeable. If anyone's interested in the subject, it's worth a search.
 

Dekka

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#36
The only ppl who seem to like him are pet owners who have little experience with training and behaviour. (I would love to hear an intelligent defence of him... Not 'it works' cause beating children works too-if your goal is a hesitant, appeasing, suppressed individual)

Pls Don't alpha roll Slade!! Esp if you want his trust and do dog sports. NO behaviouralist or trainer worth their salt will tell you this is a good idea. For the most part dogs do not roll others (none of my moms have rolled pups on purpose.) and it is an extreme threat. If you want to rule your dog by force (ie you need to respect me cause I am bigger and meaner than you) you will always need the threat of force. If you use your brain, then as long as you are smarter you will be respected ;)
 

Dizzy

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The only ppl who seem to like him are pet owners who have little experience with training and behaviour. (I would love to hear an intelligent defence of him... Not 'it works' cause beating children works too-if your goal is a hesitant, appeasing, suppressed individual)

Not strictly true.

I don't like all his methods.

But, he does have some good philosophies.
 

Dekka

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#38
like what? Other than no brainer stuff like walk your dog.... (ie other than things my 7 year old knows)
 

Dizzy

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like what? Other than no brainer stuff like walk your dog.... (ie other than things my 7 year old knows)
Your 7 year old knows it because she has grown up with someone who likes dogs.

We all automatically assume people should know exactly how to look after a dog and how to treat a dog - but some people just do NOT know even those small basics.

He promotes being the leader. I think that is a good idea.

He states exercise and mental stimulation before spoiling your dog. I think that's a good idea.

He says it's not such a good idea to humanise a dog - another good idea.

The problem is you are seeing these "no brainer" ideas as someone who already KNOWS dogs.

You have NO need for Ceaser.

But other people DO need those ideas.

As for the methods he uses to achieve those things, that's where we may agree on some levels.
 

Juicy

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i like cesar, i guess i'm in the minority. i guess i figure anybody who can save dogs from being put to sleep is okay in my book. but that's just me... i don't agree with quite a few of the training tactics I see people using, either. welcome to america.
DITTO :) I mean look how many pits he has saved...........but no lets look at the negative. People can do a million good things but are always known for doing ONE negative thing they've done.

On the show it says ''do not try this at home'' ...........so if people STILL DO IT, they're on their own, its not HIS fault.

I'm not going to jump off a tv, because I seen it on tv. But those who do, then get hurt, want to then sue the tv show, because it made them do it :rolleyes:

I don't think he's doing what he does, because he hates the dogs and wants them to fear him. But he atleast HE thinks he's doing something good. He found a method that worked for HIM.

For the dogs that he works on on his shows.......waht would of happened to them if they hadn't gone to ceser? Most have TRIED professional trainers and still nothing. They could of been put to sleep or bite someone.

I give him mad PROPS for popularizing dog training in america. Without this, how many dogs will just be deemed untrainable? He did something for the BETTER in the dog world. How many people do you see now actually trying to give a hoot about their dog's issues then before his show?

Gosh, I mean someone could make a show about puppymills, but its still not good enough. Its never good enough for folks, there's always going to be something wrong and have something to complain about. Oh yes good ol'america.

I'm for one am glad that people are exercising their dogs [thanks to ceaser], because he emphasis that in his show......but nope he's a terrible dog trainer, everything he says is stupid. No not alot of people actually thought that exercising their dog can help. How many of us know people who do not walk their dogs? I do sure know alot.
 

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