Calling APBT types pibbles

[elegy]

An APBT owner once told me that APBTs and AmStaffs are the same breed. I didn't know any better, so I looked it up, and came back to her and told her the differences. She said it didn't matter, they were so close they "might as well" be the same.

they can be. there are still some dual-registered ones out there. i believe the amstaff breed books were open to APBTs as recently as the 1970s.

i know i would have a hard time telling a lot of the UKC show ring pit bulls from the AKC show ring amstaffs. it's a lot easier when you're talking working bred and ADBA

 

[elegy]

Who is "they" exactly?
And how does calling them "American Pit Bull Terriers" instead of "Pit Bulls" keep them from being rounded up as "pit bulls"?? I could see if it was AmStaffs being labeled as pit bulls and the AmStaff fanciers being in an uproar about their breed name, but when "pit bulls" are being targeted and "pit bull" is in fact half the breed name, how does adding two more words there not make them "pit bulls"?? I just am not getting the logic.

who is "they" and why on earth give them the power to take over the name of our breed?

if the reason for abandoning the name pit bull and insisting upon the lengthy "american pit bull terrier" for every social interaction is so that your dogs don't get associated with those ghetto attack dogs... well they're still gonna get seized if push comes to shove anyway, even if you call 'em boxer mixes.

 

[Renee750il]

Who is "they" exactly?
And how does calling them "American Pit Bull Terriers" instead of "Pit Bulls" keep them from being rounded up as "pit bulls"?? I could see if it was AmStaffs being labeled as pit bulls and the AmStaff fanciers being in an uproar about their breed name, but when "pit bulls" are being targeted and "pit bull" is in fact half the breed name, how does adding two more words there not make them "pit bulls"?? I just am not getting the logic.

Media, people behind organizations like dogsbite.com, PETA, H$U$.

It doesn't keep them from being rounded up in the generic pitbull sweep, but if we give in, well, we've given up.

We don't want our dogs to be lumped in with all of the ghetto mixes and other temperamental horrors that they're being grouped with by the way the label "pit bull" is commonly used today. It's grossly unfair and it's WRONG. They are not the same breed. They aren't even a breed!

Right off the top of my head I can't think of any other breed whose owners are having to deal with and are supposed to be okay with the kind of mislabeling and "genericizing" of their breed that APBT and other Bully breed owners are.

Consider it this way: a Fila is not a Bullmastiff is not an English Mastiff is not a Dogue de Bordeaux is not a Tibetan Mastiff and no one thinks it's okay to call them all "Mastiffs."

 

[sillysally]

who is "they" and why on earth give them the power to take over the name of our breed?

if the reason for abandoning the name pit bull and insisting upon the lengthy "american pit bull terrier" for every social interaction is so that your dogs don't get associated with those ghetto attack dogs... well they're still gonna get seized if push comes to shove anyway, even if you call 'em boxer mixes.

^This

 

[elegy]

We don't want our dogs to be lumped in with all of the ghetto mixes and other temperamental horrors that they're being grouped with by the way the label "pit bull" is commonly used today. It's grossly unfair and it's WRONG. They are not the same breed. They aren't even a breed!

then the argument should be not that pit bulls aren't pit bulls but that those dogs aren't pit bulls, they're mixes.

and all of this breed nonsense beside, it's still not a dog problem but an owner problem.

maybe i shouldn't even be involved in this conversation anymore since my dogs aren't papered and thus i can't call them anything but pit bulls, since i can't prove they are "american pit bull terriers". so i'll go lie down with the ghetto dogs.

 

[corgipower]

maybe i shouldn't even be involved in this conversation anymore since my dogs aren't papered and thus i can't call them anything but pit bulls, since i can't prove they are "american pit bull terriers". so i'll go lie down with the ghetto dogs.

Well, that would certainly improve the image of ghetto pits.

 

[ACooper]

Consider it this way: a Fila is not a Bullmastiff is not an English Mastiff is not a Dogue de Bordeaux is not a Tibetan Mastiff and no one thinks it's okay to call them all "Mastiffs."

But they are all in the 'mastiff' family, and to people who don't know the different mastiff breeds by name, look, etc......they ARE all mastiffs, same as hounds and others. At least hounds and mastiffs all have distinct looks, even to untrained eyes, and with very little education you can 'generally' tell the difference if you care to. I can't claim the same with a few of the bully breeds........even after all my time here with ya'll, I STILL can't tell the difference in some of them! (I mean absolutely no offense or disrespect, I'm just telling it from my view point)

4-5 years ago, I couldn't have told anyone the difference between an English Mastiff or a Bull Mastiff or a Fila, never been around them in person and honestly, any large, floppy faced, 'shoe string' dripping dog resembling a mastiff was a mastiff to me, LOL Once I was around my son's girlfriend's English Mastiff (moose baby, aka Roxy) I fell in love and learned more about them and different mastiffs in general

 

[corgipower]

Consider it this way: a Fila is not a Bullmastiff is not an English Mastiff is not a Dogue de Bordeaux is not a Tibetan Mastiff and no one thinks it's okay to call them all "Mastiffs."

But they are all Mastiffs. Mastiff is both a type and part of any number of breed names. As is Cur. Or Spitz.

 

[stafinois]

An APBT owner once told me that APBTs and AmStaffs are the same breed. I didn't know any better, so I looked it up, and came back to her and told her the differences. She said it didn't matter, they were so close they "might as well" be the same.

Well, that's open for debate even within the breed. The AmStaf descended from the APBT, and dogs with AKC papers have gained ADBA championships. Not all AmStafs are the fat, overdone dogs that you see winning the breed at Westminster. My own dog weighs 48 lbs and easily has as much and sometimes more drive than many of the gamebred dogs that I've trained with. Sadly, the breeders that produce the old school AmStafs as they should have remained.

My own dog is registered as both an AmStaf and an APBT. He's much rangier than the typical AmStaf, and weighs a whopping 48 lbs.

I refer to him as a Pit Bull, and as he has become a local celebrity it does a LOT of good breed PR. We are surrounded by BSL, and many of these people have no idea what a Pit Bull even looks like. To be honest, the only others I've seen around here are more than likely mixes, so it's no wonder as they have perhaps never seen one.

Consider it this way: a Fila is not a Bullmastiff is not an English Mastiff is not a Dogue de Bordeaux is not a Tibetan Mastiff and no one thinks it's okay to call them all "Mastiffs."

I will admit, sometimes in discussing dogs I have referred to them as Mastiff as a group as they share certain characteristics. I see it no different than speaking in generalities as you would with Terriers or Sighthounds.

 

[Laurelin]

I just think it's odd because all the APBT people I've met up till now will argue this the opposite way. And I'm talking responsible people with papered APBTs (so not 'ghetto' dogs)

Now I'm just confused.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

To clarify "Bulldog" is an old name for pit bulls. Long used and still extremely prominent by "dogmen". It is by no means associated with the english, french, or american, nor a "Standardized" name for the APBT.

Laurelin, honestly, the whole **** breed and breeds are confusing. lol Don't sweat it to much.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Oh and I honestly see Grant as a gorgeous Am staff, not an apbt. I cherish the press he offers bully breeds and more specifically apbt but I do believe he should be reminded (in dog understanding circles) of his am staff linage as a reminder of what am staffs should look more like.

 

[Renee750il]

maybe i shouldn't even be involved in this conversation anymore since my dogs aren't papered and thus i can't call them anything but pit bulls, since i can't prove they are "american pit bull terriers". so i'll go lie down with the ghetto dogs.

Papers do not the APBT make -- at least not down here where I live. It's not uncommon for the old timers to keep their own records and refuse to register papers to keep their dogs out of the general limelight.

And yah, I cringe every time someone refers to a Fila as "Brazilian Mastiff." It's a very different dog from the Bull and English Mastiffs that most people are familiar with and assuming they are going to react similarly can be, well, dramatic.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I didn't know calling them Brazilian Mastiff would be offensive. I worked for a trainer who breed Filas for estate guardian(mostly shipping yards, etc) work in Oregon. I never heard them called otherwise when I worked there but I have used Brazilian Mastiff as a means to introducing my explanation of the breed. They are Fila brasileiros, meaning a brazilian mastiff... (on to how they can be extremely dangerous dogs in the wrong hands but fiercely loyal and devoted dogs in the right hands, blah blah blah)

I wonder if dogo argentina owners dislike Argentinean Dogs (Mastiffs) as a name used to explain the breed, or Dogue De Bordeaux and French Mastiff, etc.

I have friends with each breed, I should ask them...

 

[Sweet72947]

Actually, "fila" in Spanish is "row" in English, so the name directly translates to "Brazilian Row", not Brazilian Mastiff, lol. Brazilian Mastiff would be "Mastin Brasiliero".

ETA: translated in Portuguese, Fila means "line", and it also means "row" in Italian.

And as to the actual topic of the thread, I really don't care if people call them pibbles. I know there was a rescue group around here who did, but I don't remember who it was now, or if they still do.

 

[stafinois]

Oh and I honestly see Grant as a gorgeous Am staff, not an apbt. I cherish the press he offers bully breeds and more specifically apbt but I do believe he should be reminded (in dog understanding circles) of his am staff linage as a reminder of what am staffs should look more like.

This is why I often wonder why I should call him a Pit Bull when it comes to the public. The Staf should just be a few separate bloodlines of APBT with another set of papers. Instead, many have been watered down, and as a result, the APBT folk turn their nose up at anything with AKC papers, despite the pedigree and accomplishments of the dogs. But, they are willing to claim my dog for PR. If he's not a Pit Bull, I should just stop calling him one. In favor of outright bands, other AmStaf owners and I could plea bargain for laws similar to ones in Australia and parts of Europe that allow the AmStaf but not the APBT. I mean, since our dogs are so different and all...

Had the name not been changed at the time of AKC recognition, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Actually, "fila" in Spanish is "row" in English, so the name directly translates to "Brazilian Row", not Brazilian Mastiff, lol. Brazilian Mastiff would be "Mastin Brasiliero".

ETA: translated in Portuguese, Fila means "line", and it also means "row" in Italian.

And as to the actual topic of the thread, I really don't care if people call them pibbles. I know there was a rescue group around here who did, but I don't remember who it was now, or if they still do.

I thought I should have clarified. I knew the direct translation was not mastiff however they are a mastiff breed with it's origin in Brasil. Does brasillian mastiff upset you as well?

 

[Sweet72947]

I thought I should have clarified. I knew the direct translation was not mastiff however they are a mastiff breed with it's origin in Brasil. Does brasillian mastiff upset you as well?

No, not really, I was just pointing out that their name does not translate to "mastiff". And actually, I should also add to my post that, in ancient Portuguese, Fila meant "to hold", as in to catch and hold runaway slaves and livestock and such. (as a side note, in current Spanish, filar means "to case out". kinda funny ).

The history of the breed is not well documented, but most seem to agree that some extinct bulldog types, some mastiff types, and bloodhounds went into their creation. They may have mastiff in them somewhere along the line, but Filas really aren't "mastiff" in anything but size. So calling them "mastiff" is really a misnomer.

a good source: The history of the Fila brasileiro

 

[Renee750il]

Here you go, Cristy. Look in the middle column and you'll see the definition of filar that pertains to dogs A dictionary of the Portuguese and ... - Google Books

 

[Equinox]

Did not read the rest of the thread, but wanted to pop in and say this:

I don't know anyone who would call a bulldog a pit bull, unless that person truely didn't recognize the difference between a bulldog and an APBT. Same with bull terriers, american bullies, etc.

To clarify "Bulldog" is an old name for pit bulls. Long used and still extremely prominent by "dogmen". It is by no means associated with the english, french, or american, nor a "Standardized" name for the APBT.

AdrianneIsabel said it. That's what I meant when I used the term "Bulldog". Should have clarified, sorry.