Why I Say No To Dog Parks As A Pit Mix Owner

[Amstaffer]

I've done quite a bit, thank you. I disagree with your opinion. I think that a 'love can save them all' attitude does not but a disservice to many dogs. Not all, but more than it should.

I just hope no one is hurt, and the breed doesn't suffer for it, anymore than it already has.

Please take another look at you source material.

Life experience and training is a whole lot more than just love. It starts with love but take much more than that.

There are two major threats to Pit Bulls (and dogs as a whole) People who want to blame dogs for human failings and people who abuse and neglect dogs (negative life experience) that leds them to earn the bad reputation.

 

[Dizzy]

If you do any research on dog behavior, dog training or basic Psychology at all you will find that Genetics gives tendencies but actual Behavior is determined by Nuture (life experience and training).

The ultimate question - nature versus nurture. While I am not getting involved in the aggressive dog debate - you cannot possible say nurture = behaviour. Not proven. At all. If that were so, I would behave in the same manner as my siblings - we all have had the same upbringing and surroundings and life experiences (when we were young and developing our understanding of the world). And we are all individual.

Mixture of the two. Just as Dr Robert Winston lol

 

[rottnpagan]

Please take another look at you source material.

My source 'materials' are fine. Experience, reading, other trainers and their experiences, other behaviourists and their experiences. All fine. Thanks.

I'm not going to respond any more to you, as it's obvious we disagree, and I can't see this continuing, at least in a civil manner. Since I *know* I can't keep my temper in check, I'll bow out.

Adios.

 

[oriondw]

From Puppyhood I would say 99.9 percent of the time. Even Dogs suffer from mental illness.

As adult who has already compiled a life time of experiences.... no but the sooner you get the dog the better. Depending on the time committed and skill of the dog owner can greatly affect your success.

Nurture will beat Nature most everytime given the right set up.

Wow. Your wholesale disbelief exposes your lack of knowledge of behavior, IMHO

If you do any research on dog behavior, dog training or basic Psychology at all you will find that Genetics gives tendencies but actual Behavior is determined by Nuture (life experience and training).

Genetics (Breeds and such) makes it very easy for the Categorizing addicts that us humans are to pigeon hole dogs. On another post someone said that "All dogs are individuals" that was sooo true. We hate to admit to that because that makes dogs closer to our elevated status but it is a very true statement.

Wow.... You're so naive and wrong...

 

[motherofmany]

If you do any research on dog behavior, dog training or basic Psychology at all you will find that Genetics gives tendencies but actual Behavior is determined by Nuture (life experience and training).

Behavior is a combination of "tendencies" and training. Life experience and training cannot eliminate "tendencies" (breed behavioral traits that result from selection) If you have a herding breed, their behavioral traits will be herding behaviors. You simply cannot train those out of them and life experiences will not eliminate them. The same is true of dog aggression in breeds that have been developed for that specific purpose. Generations of selection for aggression cannot be eliminated simply by training and life experiences.

What can be done, however, is training of owners in how to handle the innate behavioral traits of a given breed (and even use them to best advantage in the case of positive "tendencies" we wish to encourage) so as far as "owners get what owners put it" there is some validity when viewed in that way.

But to say that one can eradicate the behavioral trait toward dog aggression in breeds that have been selectively bred to be dog aggressive simply by "nurture" is at best naive and at worst, dangerous.

 

[Amstaffer]

Wow.... You're so naive and wrong...

Wow... you are so tactful and informative.....

Just when I was starting to agree with some of your posts

 

[Amstaffer]

Behavior is a combination of "tendencies" and training. Life experience and training cannot eliminate "tendencies" (breed behavioral traits that result from selection) If you have a herding breed, their behavioral traits will be herding behaviors. You simply cannot train those out of them and life experiences will not eliminate them. The same is true of dog aggression in breeds that have been developed for that specific purpose. Generations of selection for aggression cannot be eliminated simply by training and life experiences.

What can be done, however, is training of owners in how to handle the innate behavioral traits of a given breed (and even use them to best advantage in the case of positive "tendencies" we wish to encourage) so as far as "owners get what owners put it" there is some validity when viewed in that way.

But to say that one can eradicate the behavioral trait toward dog aggression in breeds that have been selectively bred to be dog aggressive simply by "nurture" is at best naive and at worst, dangerous.

If it is so naive then why do dog behaviorist change Pit Bulls, Akitas, Rotts and many other "aggressive" breeds to be non-aggressive every fricking day?!

I have seen with my own eyes many times dogs that have been dog aggressive changed into dogs who will enjoy the company of other dogs. I have seen a known fighter brought to the point of tolerating other dogs...like other dogs, no but he could be walked on leash around other dogs with no aggressive behavior.

People do it, its real...just because it doesn't fit the mold of what many of us have been led to believe about dogs doesn't mean its not true.

Watch the Dog Whisper, he takes dogs that were aggressive and using his knowledge of dog behavior he changes their expression of their tendencies. Do you think he is the only one who does that? There are many other people who do he just gets the press.

Most Pschologist will tell you that Behavior is at least 75% Life Experience (excluding pathology). Nature gives you tendencies, what happens after that is up to your environment.

It is so easy to say "Its Genetics...we can't do anything about that" if that was true we sure are wasting a lot of time and money on about half the kids in our schools.

 

[motherofmany]

They don't train them to be non aggressive. These trainers, as much as is possible, train them to not act upon that aggression. But if you chat with a good trainer who really understands the issues, you will find that they do not believe that they have eliminated the "tendency" by that training and so they monitor the dogs and control the enviornment as much as is possible.

The behavioral trait is still there, and although a good trainer will be able to know most of the triggers for expression of a behavioral trait, they will not guarantee that they have proofed against all of them.

No one is saying one cannot do anything to overcome genetic behavior issues. What is being said here is that one cannot eradicate genetic behavioral traits by training.

It's a containment issue, not an actual change, do you understand that? It's about knowing the trait, channeling and/or controlling them as much as possible and also controlling the enviornment to further reduce the expression of the trait.

This is why Mojo, having a good understanding of the trait, chooses to avoid environments that may trigger the innate behavior. I applaud that decision. Part of knowing an individual dog is knowing their genetic/breed characteristics and accepting them as a reality that must be worked with, but cannot be completely altered, and doing so!

 

[mojozen]

I have watched the dog whisperer and I despise his show. My reasons for disliking his show, and his techniques, are much the same reason so many people like him. When his show comes on I change the channel.

 

[Amstaffer]

I have watched the dog whisperer and I despise his show. My reasons for disliking his show, and his techniques, are much the same reason so many people like him. When his show comes on I change the channel.

Why such strong dislike?

 

[brock23]

I don't think there is any middle ground with Cesar Millan. People either seems to love him or hate him. I personally like the show, but that is just my opinion.

 

[mojozen]

Why such strong dislike?

I disagree with many of his methods. You only see the dogs on the show for what 2 sessions? Does he follow up with the owners 6 weeks down the line after that initial show? Not that I have seen. You don't solve a dog's problems in such a short period of time.

I'd much rather (and am more likely) to tell a person to seek out a trainer and stick with obedience training, than prescribe watching his show for ideas.

 

[RD]

I don't love all of Cesar Millan's methods of "solving problems" but I have to give the guy credit for understanding dogs well enough to manage a large pack of notoriously dog-aggressive breeds.
I've actually found a lot of his advice to be pretty sound. Most pet dogs desperately need more structure, discipline and exercise in their life and that is what he encourages.
That being said I think the "two-session" show is rather silly and not very realistic. I have a hard time believing that all of the dog's problems are solved in just one or two days.

 

[Amstaffer]

They don't train them to be non aggressive. These trainers, as much as is possible, train them to not act upon that aggression. But if you chat with a good trainer who really understands the issues, you will find that they do not believe that they have eliminated the "tendency" by that training and so they monitor the dogs and control the enviornment as much as is possible. !

You are play semantics here, at the end of the day(figurative day) a good dog behaviorist can take a dog that has learn to express dominance in the for of aggression and channel that into something else.

What is being said here is that one cannot eradicate genetic behavioral traits by training.!

I never said you could eliminate tendencies just behaviors. Behaviors (what the dog actually does) is what we are worried about.

It's a containment issue, not an actual change, do you understand that? It's about knowing the trait, channeling and/or controlling them as much as possible and also controlling the enviornment to further reduce the expression of the trait..!

I do understand your idea of containment...but the problem I have with this containment is that it implies helplessness or inablilty to change. You have acknowledge that change can be made in dogs by training.

This is why Mojo, having a good understanding of the trait, chooses to avoid environments that may trigger the innate behavior. I applaud that decision. Part of knowing an individual dog is knowing their genetic/breed characteristics and accepting them as a reality that must be worked with, but cannot be completely altered, and doing so!

I think it is completely fine that Mojo has decided to avoid dog parks just as I hope you will realize that by an experienced and skilled dog owner it is possible to take your dog anywhere you want.

My female Athena, (rescued from fighting stock as I mentioned earlier) is a wonderful and trustworthy dog with Dogs, Cats and anything (besides Junebugs...couldn't stop that aggression ) She is 9.5 years old and has NEVER given me any reason to doubt her. She has been around many "Dog" people and they agree on her stability. Sal is 5 and I am 97% sure on him and I continue to work with his socialization and training. He has never shown any out of line behavior even after being attack by other dogs. I realize at 5 he still has mental development but with in a few years I feel I will be as sure about him as I am Athena.

To be honest I agree most Pit Bulls should not go to the Dog Park because of poor ownership and the lack of the extra training they need to enjoy that activity. I just object to absolutes like "every" and "all".

Heck Athena has been to my brother house where the dang rabbit they have has crawled over the top of Athena and she ignored it. My Vets cat likes Athena....I'll get pictures on our next trip.

 

[Amstaffer]

I disagree with many of his methods. You only see the dogs on the show for what 2 sessions? Does he follow up with the owners 6 weeks down the line after that initial show? Not that I have seen. You don't solve a dog's problems in such a short period of time.

I'd much rather (and am more likely) to tell a person to seek out a trainer and stick with obedience training, than prescribe watching his show for ideas.

Season two now shows follow ups. I think what he has done at his home is more telling. He has 37 dogs who live together in a pack, many of them are large male pit bulls (he also has Rotts and everything else you can imagine) who he has taken in because of aggression issues. These dogs all get along fine. He even introduces problem dogs to the group to help straighten them out. Love or hate him he knows his $%&@.

 

[Amstaffer]

That being said I think the "two-session" show is rather silly and not very realistic. I have a hard time believing that all of the dog's problems are solved in just one or two days.

He doesn't say they are cured after his visit, he shows the PEOPLE how to change and that is the whole secret. At the start of the show he says he is a dog behaviorist who trains people. The dogs will only be cured if the people change.

 

[rottiegirl]

But we are not talking about a Chi and a JRT. A pitt is very powerful and cannot compare a Pit/mastiff fight to a Chi/JRT fight. Pitts are very pain tolerant and are very strong. If they get the right timing and latch onto the neck the other dog is done.

Rotts are dog agressive as are many other breeds such as Akita's, Doberman's, Cane Corso's, Presa's, and the list goes on and on. There are alot of dog agressive dogs but its just that Pitt agression usually leaves the other dog in serious condition if not already dead. Pitts are in a catagory of their own, not because they are more or less dog aggressive but because the attack is more devestating.

Pitts were NEVER bred to kill people.

I do not agree with dog parks for any dogs. Any dog can become dog agressive and I am not going to let my dog get into a fight because I would hurt that other dog because nothing messes with my baby.

Not all pitts are bad but I don't think you should take that chance with another dog. The media does not need another "pit bull attack story" on the cover of the newspaper.

I really dont understand why you are saying that a pit can take down ANY breed. Why argue that? You have no proof. Pits are not the only breed that has a high pain tolerance. Filas, tosas, canary dogs, and other breeds were also used for fighting, and they have a high pain tolerance. They are way bigger then pits. I have personaly seen a fila crush a pit instantly. Their jaws are bigger than pit jaws. You get your hands on a conditioned fila or canary dog, and then tell me that a pit is stronger. You are very mistaken, because you cannot take one breed and say that they are the strongest. Its more about the individual dog.

If you look at the history of rotties, you will see that they are not supposed to be dog aggressive. Pits have been bred to kill other dogs for many many years. Its not that they are stronger than a different breed, its because most of them are aggressive with other dogs, and they will attack. I had this problem in my local dog park. 9 times out of ten, the pits were causing the fights. That is my experience.

I never once said that pitts were bred to kill people. I said they were bred to kill other dogs.

 

[rottiegirl]

Um, no. Pit bulls routinely took down bulls that were considerably larger than a fila or a mastiff. I have no doubt that a rottweiler would lose in a fight with a pit bull, and I have no plans to allow something of the sort to occur, regardless of breed.

Oh wow, I never once said that a rottie could take down a pit. I said that the aggressive pits that I seen in the dog park were pretty lucky that they didnt mess with a larger conditioned dog. Its more individual. A well bred and conditioned rottie could take down a poorly bred pit. That goes for any breed. You cannot say that one breed is stronger than another breed. Its just not true. Like I said before, I have personaly seen a fila take down a pit in no time. That is what I seen with my own eyes, so I do not think you can claim that any pit can take down any dog. Have you ever seen a well conditioned fila or tosa before? Guess not.

 

[rottnpagan]

Oh wow, I never once said that a rottie could take down a pit. I said that the aggressive pits that I seen in the dog park were pretty lucky that they didnt mess with a larger conditioned dog. Its more individual. A well bred and conditioned rottie could take down a poorly bred pit. That goes for any breed. You cannot say that one breed is stronger than another breed. Its just not true. Like I said before, I have personaly seen a fila take down a pit in no time. That is what I seen with my own eyes, so I do not think you can claim that any pit can take down any dog. Have you ever seen a well conditioned fila or tosa before? Guess not.

You can say whatever you like, the majority of the dog world will disagree.

And yes, actually I have seen well bred filas and tosas. I fail to see your point.

 

[Amstaffer]

I really dont understand why you are saying that a pit can take down ANY breed. Why argue that? .

Excellent point why would you try to discuss it. Frankly the topic makes me feel dirty.