For me, it's a change in your outlook - from "dog must do it because I say so or ELSE", very authoritarian, etc. to a more relationship based, teamwork focused angle. Whith this change I think it's common to see a major reduction in the use of tools that are aversive, but if we're honest, even a head halter or no-pull harness works through aversives, so I don't see using no aversives ever as a requirement.
Who was a 'crossover' trainer?
- Thread starter JacksonsMom
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I didn't respond yet to the thread for the same reason as Shai. I hate labels, I hate putting myself into a group. I consider myself PR, but I still use eh-eh's when Zinga chases the cat and a squirt bottle when she won't stop barking. I pair these things with rewarding for the correct choices and did my best to teach her the correct choices from the beginning. Honestly, she's a high strung 7 month old puppy, I did the best I could. I often feel like PR people don't believe that I'm PR enough, and that I shouldn't be labeling myself as such. I know I'm not a correction based trainer. It's just such a fine line and open to such interpretation that I don't want to label myself as anything.
To me, a cross over trainer is someone who went from adversive training to PR. I used leash corrections, however I have always used clickers and treats to teach new behaviors. I used punishments as well as rewards, now I use 99% rewards and rarely use punishments.
To me, a cross over trainer is someone who went from adversive training to PR. I used leash corrections, however I have always used clickers and treats to teach new behaviors. I used punishments as well as rewards, now I use 99% rewards and rarely use punishments.
This pretty much sums up why I haven't responded to this thread as well. I wanted to but couldn't think of a good way to put it, but SaraB and Shai said it well. I was never really to an extreme in either direction. I've definitely changed and improved in different ways, but not in such a way that I would call myself a 'crossover trainer'.
To me, it's a change in mind set. I didn't go cold turkey, but slowly phased out corrections, still believing they were needed sometimes. But the more I train Sienna and see the effects of even very mild corrections and stress, the more I realize that it's not needed, and it's all in my head. At least, with her. I still use aversives in the form of pressure, NRMs or "ah ah, leave it" type things as well, but I don't see the relationship as me vs. the dog anymore.
I was having some fetch issues recently that really brought home to me the difference between a command and a cue. I'm planning to write a blog post about it, but basically I was using "get it" to mean "please bring me the dumbbell now". Working through this problem (tall grass, short dumbbell, dog who thinks if she can't see it, it isn't there, but really, really wants to do what I ask so gets crazy stressed when she thinks she can't) made me realize that what "get it" SHOULD mean is "you now have permission to go get that dumbbell!"
In other words, I'm not telling or even asking the dog to do something anymore. I'm giving her permission to do the thing she really, really wants to do. So the first step in teaching the behavior is to get the dog to really, really want to do it.
Command vs cues - are like night and day to me now.
I was having some fetch issues recently that really brought home to me the difference between a command and a cue. I'm planning to write a blog post about it, but basically I was using "get it" to mean "please bring me the dumbbell now". Working through this problem (tall grass, short dumbbell, dog who thinks if she can't see it, it isn't there, but really, really wants to do what I ask so gets crazy stressed when she thinks she can't) made me realize that what "get it" SHOULD mean is "you now have permission to go get that dumbbell!"
In other words, I'm not telling or even asking the dog to do something anymore. I'm giving her permission to do the thing she really, really wants to do. So the first step in teaching the behavior is to get the dog to really, really want to do it.
Command vs cues - are like night and day to me now.
I never crossed over; I've been on one side of the arbitrary line from day one.
We didn't get our first dog until I was 10; we only did one session of puppy classes with him, and I think they were positive based. I don't remember well, to be honest. I know he was always on a regular buckle collar. We didn't do a ton of training with Medley after that. He was just a fairly easy dog to live with.
My next dog was Meg - I'd graduated college, worked for 2 years for a "positive" trainer (who was far less positive outside of class with dogs). Stopped working there for a variety of reasons, learned all about clicker training and was playing with it with the horse, and finally got Meg. I am certain she would have been ruined with harsh training of almost any kind. I couldn't even use NRM with her for a long time. She has taught me more about positive training than any shelf full of books could have.
We didn't get our first dog until I was 10; we only did one session of puppy classes with him, and I think they were positive based. I don't remember well, to be honest. I know he was always on a regular buckle collar. We didn't do a ton of training with Medley after that. He was just a fairly easy dog to live with.
My next dog was Meg - I'd graduated college, worked for 2 years for a "positive" trainer (who was far less positive outside of class with dogs). Stopped working there for a variety of reasons, learned all about clicker training and was playing with it with the horse, and finally got Meg. I am certain she would have been ruined with harsh training of almost any kind. I couldn't even use NRM with her for a long time. She has taught me more about positive training than any shelf full of books could have.
Yeah I don't think I count as a crossover. My one experience with collar corrections was Beau's 8 week class. That was it. Then since then it's just been slowly evolving. Even when I was a kid, I was a treat pusher (lol). I do not know why I decided to try training that way as my parents didn't really do any of that. I know I didn't read any of it, I just did. And it worked. And as I've gotten older I've gotten better at training and tweaked my methods. Even just this last year I've seen some real changes in my handling.
I'm very happy that right now I'm training with 3 different trainers. It's nice to see things from various perspectives. Of course all are 'positive trainers' but there are still different approaches.
I'm still very very much a novice.
I'm very happy that right now I'm training with 3 different trainers. It's nice to see things from various perspectives. Of course all are 'positive trainers' but there are still different approaches.
I'm still very very much a novice.
Yep.. this. And I’d even say it gets more subtle.
Its a fundamental philosophical difference in how we view the dogs themselves. Do you see the dog as a willing partner who just needs understanding to cooperate, or do you see the dog as a willful servant who needs discipline in order to obey?
Willing cooperation vs. servile obedience. Seems like meaningless semantics, but to me it is a meaningful difference.
This quote is from a book on parenting, but its the same idea.
How do you see the dog in front of you? How do you view problem behaviors? Is it defiance and disobedience? Or is it confusion and misunderstanding?
Given the opportunity and motivation do you feel dogs will choose to cooperate and work with us? Or do you feel dogs will always figure out a way to get out of things and need to be reminded who has the bigger stick?
Its a fundamental philosophical difference in how we view the dogs themselves. Do you see the dog as a willing partner who just needs understanding to cooperate, or do you see the dog as a willful servant who needs discipline in order to obey?
Willing cooperation vs. servile obedience. Seems like meaningless semantics, but to me it is a meaningful difference.
This quote is from a book on parenting, but its the same idea.
How do you see the dog in front of you? How do you view problem behaviors? Is it defiance and disobedience? Or is it confusion and misunderstanding?
Given the opportunity and motivation do you feel dogs will choose to cooperate and work with us? Or do you feel dogs will always figure out a way to get out of things and need to be reminded who has the bigger stick?
I'm sorry if this takes this off topic a bit, but I wanted to bring this up because I think it's important. I'm not a super great trainer, I have a lot to learn, especially with technique and being something of a recent "crossover" I do use corrections (verbal mostly when Rio is chasing the cat), I use the word No, and I'm still really dependent on luring.
I feel like the PR training movement is kind of stuck on the whole notion of being the "most positive". I see this in a lot of different groups, trainers fighting with each other about what positive reinforcement is and who is more positive than someone else. I don't feel like that should be the goal. I think we all know that being "purely positive" in both the literal and figurative definition is not possible. We are all human, we are all going to make mistakes and sometimes people might get frustrated and use a verbal correction or even a leash correction. That doesn't make them a villain.
I sometimes wonder if that's why there hasn't been a huge shift in dog training methods away from the Dog Whisper type trainers. PR trainers spend so much time talking and arguing amongst themselves about who's more positive than who that they can't present a real solid, united and welcoming front to the general public.
I DO believe in PR training and I also believe that it should be discussed as being more of a shift away from older, conflict based techniques but I think trying to label that shift is not to anyone's benefit. It just causes further us vs. them mentality.
I apologize if this ramble doesn't make much sense, it's been a bad day and I'm still trying to get better at organizing my thoughts.
Sara
I feel like the PR training movement is kind of stuck on the whole notion of being the "most positive". I see this in a lot of different groups, trainers fighting with each other about what positive reinforcement is and who is more positive than someone else. I don't feel like that should be the goal. I think we all know that being "purely positive" in both the literal and figurative definition is not possible. We are all human, we are all going to make mistakes and sometimes people might get frustrated and use a verbal correction or even a leash correction. That doesn't make them a villain.
I sometimes wonder if that's why there hasn't been a huge shift in dog training methods away from the Dog Whisper type trainers. PR trainers spend so much time talking and arguing amongst themselves about who's more positive than who that they can't present a real solid, united and welcoming front to the general public.
I DO believe in PR training and I also believe that it should be discussed as being more of a shift away from older, conflict based techniques but I think trying to label that shift is not to anyone's benefit. It just causes further us vs. them mentality.
I apologize if this ramble doesn't make much sense, it's been a bad day and I'm still trying to get better at organizing my thoughts.
Sara
Raises hand. Though I started before CM went on the Oprah show and became famous.
I started out with obedience with Kaiden. I didn't use a choke on him (though I did with other dogs in the past) simply because he was so chill. I did use collar pops along with treats. I even tried an e collar (and when people like to throw around big name e collar trainers.. well I trained with one of those too).
I stopped using aversive somewhat gradually as they weren't making things better. Kaiden's heeling got so much better when I dropped the aversives all together and stayed strictly positive. Then I looked into the WHY.. and was hooked.
I started out with obedience with Kaiden. I didn't use a choke on him (though I did with other dogs in the past) simply because he was so chill. I did use collar pops along with treats. I even tried an e collar (and when people like to throw around big name e collar trainers.. well I trained with one of those too).
I stopped using aversive somewhat gradually as they weren't making things better. Kaiden's heeling got so much better when I dropped the aversives all together and stayed strictly positive. Then I looked into the WHY.. and was hooked.
I have never been a huge fan of CM. I enjoy watching his shows but the wave of "chht" I have heard from dog owners since him hitting the scene has driven me nuts.
I myself train with many different techniques, I am the biggest fan of Michael Ellis though. I can relate to and have had a lot of great success with his methods.
I myself train with many different techniques, I am the biggest fan of Michael Ellis though. I can relate to and have had a lot of great success with his methods.
I used to watch the show and thought Caeser was legit. One day when I was at work (at the job where there was nothing to do but surf the internet for hours) I found Chaz and read one of those lengthy threads about Caeser that tend to pop up here now and then, and my eyes were opened. I never really used to tsst or jab or be rough with dogs, but back then I was looking for anything and everything that could've helped me help my fear aggressive lab. I'm glad I stumbled on Chaz and learned that Caeser was NOT the correct way to do that!
Am I the only person who has never actually watched an episode of The Dog Whisperer? I've seen brief clips that have been passed around on forums before, but never anything beyond that. And not even out of distaste - it's never on when I'm watching TV and I never go out of my way to watch.
The closest I've come is watching the Cesar Milan episode on South Park :lol-sign:
As far as being a "crossover trainer" goes, I'm just as uneducated in training method as I was starting out in dog ownership. Any adjustments I make in training or handling is because I began to understand my dog better, as opposed to training theory. My first "lessons" in dog training came from the forums, which was the first resource I turned to for all things dog. Trent is my first and only dog and does not require anything from either end of the spectrum.
The closest I've come is watching the Cesar Milan episode on South Park :lol-sign:
As far as being a "crossover trainer" goes, I'm just as uneducated in training method as I was starting out in dog ownership. Any adjustments I make in training or handling is because I began to understand my dog better, as opposed to training theory. My first "lessons" in dog training came from the forums, which was the first resource I turned to for all things dog. Trent is my first and only dog and does not require anything from either end of the spectrum.
This. I still use aversives - but they're not nearly as aversive as what I used to use. Tipper has a gentle leader, Murphy has an Easy Walk and both of those are in place of a prong/choke collar. The major bonus of "crossing over" is that I feel like I'm actively working WITH my dogs to accomplish things. I rarely, if ever, felt that way when I viewed dogs as willfully disobedient. It was always a me vs. them relationship and I'm so glad that's gone.
I am old enough that I come from the era that choke collars, no treats, just a pat on the head if they did what you wanted was the way you trained and I trained a large variety of dogs, all using that method and got titles in Obedience on them.
I was out of dogs for a good many years, did not have a computer so sort of lost touch with doggy things. In 2004 I got Susie, my first dogs in a long time, and also a computer. Things had certainly changed!! I have gradually changed over to treat based training especially when I started doing Agility where they have to want to do it and enjoy doing it.
They say you can teach an old dog new tricks and I guess it applies to people too. I guess you would call me a crossover trainer.
I was out of dogs for a good many years, did not have a computer so sort of lost touch with doggy things. In 2004 I got Susie, my first dogs in a long time, and also a computer. Things had certainly changed!! I have gradually changed over to treat based training especially when I started doing Agility where they have to want to do it and enjoy doing it.
They say you can teach an old dog new tricks and I guess it applies to people too. I guess you would call me a crossover trainer.
