Who was a 'crossover' trainer?

[Flyinsbt]

Very true!

I guess I worded it wrong.

I'm like you, I certainly use 'eh-eh!' and 'no!' and that kind of stuff.

I'm not really ANY particular method. My training philosophy is definitely more relationship-based than anything.

Honestly, I don't believe that anyone trains without any form of punishment at all. Even if it's just withholding a reward. People who say they don't, are usually deluding themselves, if you watch how they're actually training, and how the dogs react. Negative punishment is still punishment. ie; the very common technique of removing a dog from an agility course when it doesn't perform correctly. (I don't do that, in general, I don't think it's a fair correction, since the dog has no chance to make it right)

I do use positive punishment in the sense of verbal corrections, though mostly for lifestyle situations as opposed to training. I've used them in training, though, when necessary. And I'll use negative punishment not infrequently. ie; if I get Pirate out to work agility, and he's OTT and not trying to work with me, I put him up, and work Tess. He doesn't have to work with me, but if he chooses not to in that situation, the alternative is not for him to be running amok. And that is certainly a form of punishment (just ask Pirate).

The main thing, I think, in crossing over is going from using force-based methods ("I'll pop on this collar until you learn to heel!"), to using cooperative methods. ("wanna play together? I know a fun game, with cheese!")

 

[BostonBanker]

Am I the only person who has never actually watched an episode of The Dog Whisperer? I've seen brief clips that have been passed around on forums before, but never anything beyond that. And not even out of distaste - it's never on when I'm watching TV and I never go out of my way to watch.

I hadn't seen any episodes for the longest time. Mostly because I don't get the channel. I finally decided that I should see what I was complaining about. I watched about 3 full episodes while house-sitting, until I got to the one where he chases the sheltie around the house popping a toaster in its face. I didn't need to see more after that.

 

[yoko]

he chases the sheltie around the house popping a toaster in its face. I didn't need to see more after that.

...wut?

 

[BostonBanker]

..wut?

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction.

The dog would flip out barking at the sound of the toast popping up. So of course the correct answer is to chase it around the house popping the toaster until you corner the dog. Or something. It's been a while since I saw it, but it was the point where I just said "there is nothing I'm going to get from this other than anger".

I think it might have been the same episode where the people wanted their dog to swim in the pool with the kids, so he put it on a leash and jumped into the pool dragging the dog along.

 

[Laurelin]

I've not watched the dog whisperer much. Just clips here and there. I don't watch tv much at all.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction.

The dog would flip out barking at the sound of the toast popping up. So of course the correct answer is to chase it around the house popping the toaster until you corner the dog. Or something. It's been a while since I saw it, but it was the point where I just said "there is nothing I'm going to get from this other than anger".

I think it might have been the same episode where the people wanted their dog to swim in the pool with the kids, so he put it on a leash and jumped into the pool dragging the dog along.

Okay, I've now seen a full episode, because that weirded me out so much I had to see it. Unfortunately, I had to buy the episode from Amazon to see it, I hate giving the guy an audience.

It was creepy. Poor freaked out Sheltie. I notice his advice on both the scared Vizsla (the dog he dragged into the pool) and the scared Sheltie involved putting them on a leash with a choke chain and dragging them around. Oh, and with the Sheltie, he was holding it down while he shoved the toaster at it, and he explained to the owners that he was holding it with his hand so it was like a bite, only not to hurt, to cause relaxation. Because, you know, biting is such an effective way of causing relaxation.

 

[Doberluv]

We use to have a handful of Cesar Milan followers/worshipers on here. They kind of gave up around here and must have moved on to other forums where they can be more validated by others of their kind. I am really curious how many of his original groupies, not only from Chaz, but from all over... have realized the error of their ways and become more logical thinkers and absorbed anything from the available and reputable sources of information on how dogs really are and how they learn with infinitely more appropriate methods. (wow, that was a run on sentence if I ever saw one)

 

[misfitz]

Yep.. this. And I’d even say it gets more subtle.

Its a fundamental philosophical difference in how we view the dogs themselves. Do you see the dog as a willing partner who just needs understanding to cooperate, or do you see the dog as a willful servant who needs discipline in order to obey?

Willing cooperation vs. servile obedience. Seems like meaningless semantics, but to me it is a meaningful difference.

This quote is from a book on parenting, but its the same idea.


How do you see the dog in front of you? How do you view problem behaviors? Is it defiance and disobedience? Or is it confusion and misunderstanding?
Given the opportunity and motivation do you feel dogs will choose to cooperate and work with us? Or do you feel dogs will always figure out a way to get out of things and need to be reminded who has the bigger stick?

Excellent point.

 

[AllisonPitbullLvr]

I did a presentation at work today on implementing new, gentler techniques for handling pets, restraining pets and giving good advice to owners regarding behavior problems and who to see out for help as needed.

For it, I showed the Cesar video where he gets bitten by the lab. I think everyone is thoroughly converted now. (a few were still in the "but some of what he says makes sense!" stage. Some of what a parrot makes sense too...)