Who was a 'crossover' trainer?

[Aleron]

Everyone's stories are interesting.

I definitely was a cross over trainer and it was a long road to where I am now. I started training in 91 or 92...I think this makes me sound older than I am LOL I started young in 4H. The club was all old school methods, I wouldn't call the methods abusive but certainly were based on forcing the dog to do what was asked right from the start. Many kids with big dogs had to use gloves during training because of the constant power struggle between them and their dogs. My dog was a very fearful, reactive young Dobe mix and training really did help him a lot, even though it was old school methods. It took a few years but he went from being a dog some people thought should be PTS to being a very trustworthy, social dog. He did well enough with the training but being a mixed breed at that time pretty much ruled out doing any "real" competition with him. He certainly could have been a much happier worker in obedience with positive training, as other stuff I taught with treats he was much more enthusiastic about. He knew tons of tricks and picked up on agility right away because I had always done so much jumping, balancing and climbing related stuff with him for fun.

Around the time that I had him trained in Graduate Novice I got my Collie puppy and one of our advisors was talking about doing things beyond obedience. Stuff called agility and flyball, which I met her at a dog show to see demo'd. Also talking about positive reinforcement training "like they use at Sea World", not using choke collars anymore. I was skeptical, despite using treats to tricks LOL Still the timing worked out that the Collie was trained from early on with treats...and collar corrections. When he was about a year old, the new 4H club started and both dogs started doing agility. I got to go to a Jane Simmons-Moake seminar and a dog training/behind the scenes seminar at the old Ohio Sea World. My training definitely got more positive but I also joined the local all-breed club which was still pretty old school. I noticed though, that while he was inconsistent my Collie had really nice heeling when he was on...the treats!

I just sort of got more and more into the positive training, decided my next puppy I would try all clicker with, after experimenting with it on the Belgian I co-owned with my advisor. The next puppy was my first GSD and raising her as a clicker puppy was really eye opening! From there I made way from "balanced training" to more and more positive methods. As my understanding of "positive training" have continued to grow, I have realized most of the limitations of the method have more to do with the application of it then the method itself, which offers endless possibilities for how to get, alter and build behaviors.

Cesar never has been more than an "eh this guy" to me beyond my annoyance at people in class who worship him. I read his book because we had it at work and I always read all the better ones two or three times LOL I found I agreed more with his book than his practice. I liked his emphasis on exercise, although felt 6 or whatever hours a day was unrealistic for most people. I found I agreed with some of what he said in the book but not why he said it. His book if I remember (it's been years and years) was more of stories and what not than a how-to. His show though, I found was just old school training...nothing new there.

 

[adojrts]

Me too, started out with the Monks and Woodhouse etc. Found out really quickly that I didn't like the way my dogs responded to the methods and to me. Hate the look in their eyes when directed at me.
I come from a long and deep history with horses.......specifically problem horses. I had already figured out that working with them in conflict didn't work, that the conflict was the problem and I always had success when I taught them and used rewards. Kicked myself for being stupid and started doing the same with my dogs............never looked back and got serious about educating myself.

 

[Greenmagick]

Where I used to work and manage, the trainers were definitely aversive based. We considered ourselves balanced but yeah, I dont count handing a treat out instead of a collar pop really balanced, especially when learning. We definitely told people not to allow dogs on beds, on couches, etc. My original manager (whom I took the place of when she switched to a new location) was actually pretty PR and it always fascinated me. She had titles on her dogs too and they were just so much happier to be working with her. They had such a connection but I considered it to be kind of a fluke. Learned later it wasnt Not that the other people and trainers there didnt love their dogs and connect with them, but it was different for sure.

 

[misfitz]

I also used to buy into it, luckily like Jackson, Sienna was a naturally good dog so I never needed to correct her much. I still see the value in some of what he says, mostly about energy - dogs do read our energy. A calm and 'assertive' (which I take to mean 'confident') person has a much different effect on a dog than someone who is unsure, maybe a bit afraid, and erratic in their movements.

The alpha rolling cr*p, not so much. And now that I know about the science behind his other techniques, like flooding, I can see how harmful they are. I can understand how the average person (including non-pet-owners) wouldn't see that, though.

My first introduction to dog training was the Koehler method. I had the novice book, and loved the idea of a formula that worked for every dog. Of course, now I know that there IS no magic formula, and the part of training that I enjoy the most is that fact - that you have to read the dog and be creative and adaptable to adjust what you're doing to the dog's needs.

My biggest "aha" moment came when watching obedience trial videos of Koehler trained dogs vs. positive trained dogs (like Denise Fenzi's dogs). The difference in the dogs' attitudes is like night and day. I want my dog to have JOY for the work, not just be going through the motions.

Long before Cesar came on the scene, I trained with a lot more compulsion...definitely not very harsh because I just couldn't be harsh to the animals I loved. I read Koehler and was appalled at the abuse he recommended. But I was more militant and making sure I had the "upper hand." I used choke collars, mostly for the noise effect of the sliding motion, so I didn't yank too hard or hurt their necks much. But yeah....do this or die. Back in the 60's and 70's, that was the only game in town. I finally wizened up after a while and found much better methods that did not include force or intimidation. It was not a sudden transformation. Old habits die hard.

There are those who use a lot of punishment and coercion who have the attitude that if you haven't used the harsh aversives, you just don't know what you're missing in their so called reliability. Well, most people who have trained both ways will say there's no contest...that PR is not only more effective for reliability, will mold a dog who thinks and doesn't operate in a state of avoidance, but also more fun for both dog and owner. I'm very thankful things changed. I hope they will change more for the general public.

+1

 

[Laurelin]

I never really watched Cesar but I grew up in a 'show the dog whose boss' type of household. My family (with exception of my sister) really still is that way. Heck I remember my parents spanking the dogs and rolling them. I remember them intimidating Trey really harshly because he would snipe food. I spanked both Nikki and Trey, sadly. Nikki bit me back.

I trained Nikki quite a bit for a kid. I didn't know what I was doing. Looking back, I still can't figure out why I decided to teach Nikki tricks or where I learned to train dogs. I wasn't GOOD (I was also only 10 when I got her). I never got her to not pull on a walk, for example. but my approach to training her was very positive compared to what I grew up with. I used treats and mostly luring back then. I taught her quite a lot of tricks. I taught her to jump through hoops, jump over things, roll over, sit, shake, speak, etc etc.

We got Beau and after he finished his championship, my mom wanted to do rally obedience. We took him to the local AKC obed club where the trainer told us to get him on a choke chain and go from there. It was very bad. He could not get Beau to lie down. The man had rottweilers and here he was trying to force a papillon on a choke chain into a down. It wasn't working. I was watching, not handling, and thought 'Why???' Brought Beau home and pulled out some treats and had him in a down consistently in minutes. The next class, the trainer was amazed that Beau was doing a down on command.

Then enter Summer, my first dog as an adult. Summer was already well behaved and somewhat trained. I started her up with the trick training like I'd done with Nik because Summer was (as far as I knew at the time) super high energy (lol). She was much more hyper than the dogs we'd had before and I thought 'I better give her something to do'. She wouldn't play with toys so we taught tricks. I was still very much luring at that point most things. but she learned fast and it was all positive. Lots of tricks and teaching her things like staying out of the kitchen. I also used a clicker for this training because I had heard about 'clicker training'.

Summer was the dog that made me decide to try classes. Agility classes in particular. We ended up going to a club that in retrospect was not very good. Mostly lures but all positive. Summer and I moved and we got Mia...

Training Mia, I continued on with the positive/mostly luring training. She was really smart and again, picked it up fast. I did experiment with shaping some just from reading chaz and hearing about it. It worked, but I didn't really 'get' it.

We started up at a new place and did agility there and CGC training and a tricks class. The girl teaching it was very new to training but she liked shaping quite a bit. She started explaining shaping in the tricks class and a lightbulb went off. That was the big turning point. In between this training school and finally landing on where I am now, I played with shaping a LOT.

Now both training schools I go to are big into shaping and clicker training. I am also seeing so many wonderful, awesome results with my dogs. They free think, they offer behaviors. They LOVE training. And for me it's just so much more interesting. And now I'm taking 2 classes with Summer and 3 with mia a week. and I can't wait to learn to train more and better.

 

[yoko]

The first dog in my life was my older brothers dog. I had no part in training her.

My first dog was Lady. She had been abused before I got her. I couldn't use treats because she didn't want to eat in front of people. I couldn't use toys because she was afraid of them. Praise was the only thing I could use with her.

One hit, one jerk, one smack, one hard word would have shut her down for forever. I was really lucky that my first dog taught me patience so I skipped over the weird dominance/punishment training.

When I got Yoshi I found out she was super food motivated. So with her I have used praise and food. Yoshi had a pretty bad start but no where near as bad as Lady. And I love how she'll randomly do tricks/trained actions for me with out having to ask her. Not because I forced it on her that I was the boss but because I can see her trying to think things through and I just haven't ever seen those actions through a dominance trained dog.

I think my dad says it best:

'When you hit a dog you aren't teaching it any thing, you aren't showing it who's boss, you aren't marking a behavior, you're showing the dog that you can hit it. Don't do it.'

Yoshi's not a robot and she's not a slave. I want her to be happy and able to think for herself and not constantly waiting for my next command. I've helped train a ton of my friend's and coworker's dogs and positive training methods have never let me down.

 

[Brattina88]

Good Dogs, Great Owners by Barbara Woodhouse, Brian Kilcommons... still have that book. I look at it occasionally, its a reminder. Yup, put me in the boat with those that said them, the Monks, buuut to be honest, I never followed them exculsively. I couldn't be harsh to the dogs, Although, I admit that I collar popped Maddie a couple of times when we were leash training when she was younger. That's about 9-10 years ago, now. Before Maddie, my family always did things like push their butts down to get them to sit, stuff like that. I did a lot of luring which didn't work too well because yea, they wouldnt do anything without a treat. I didn't know what I was doing, yet, though dogs just generally seemed to listen to me pretty well.

But I got Maddie into a petsmart training class, actually, and that's what got me hooked on clicker training. Oddly enough But we had an AMAZING trainer, she went to courses and things above and beyond and wanted to open her own training center. When she moved to Columbus to do that, I was very sad to see her go. But anyways, from then on out, that was the way for me. It's so much more... fun...consistant.. the dogs want to learn, look forward to training, and when they "get it" it seems to stick with them more. Solid
As far as Cesar, I never liked him. I don't like how he talks to people, his condescending comments to women, or dogs. But I'm a pretty quiet, calm person and I don't flock towards that "type" of personality, so that's just me.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

Me. Unfortunately most of Gyps problems are because of corrections- he doesn't bark, he doesn't whine when he needs to go potty, he doesn't growl, it's not a good thing. He also flinches when you go to pet him, something that kills me every time. He is very obedient but lacks the creativity I think he would have had without that style training.

 

[Brattina88]

He is very obedient but lacks the creativity I think he would have had without that style training.

When I'm working with the fosters / rescue dogs -- I can pretty much always tell how a dog is trained but I couldn't think of how to word it. Dogs who are used to free-shaping are so much more... creative... than those who are used to other methods. They feel free / encouraged to offer behaviors and they're easier to capture, seem to learn faster... jmho

 

[Linds]

These stories are all really interesting. It's fun reading everyone's experiences.

I wish I had known more with Kaylee. She's a difficult dog but I really think a lot of her issues could have been worked with had I been creative instead of trying to fight her at every turn. It's too late now since she is allowed to do whatever she wants and is given a cookie for it but I do look back with regret.

 

[Lyzelle]

Me.

Zander was my first "real dog". And I say "real dog" because there's a major difference between a mastiff puppy that sleeps, eats, and poops 24 hours a day and a Sibe pup who wants nothing more than to eat everything, chew everything, scream at everything, claw your eyes out, run away, and be an absolute suicidal hellion. By the way, I was 12 years old. Crash course much? Yeah. And that's exactly when CM started hitting tv. I was always super into SOME purely positive training, like potty training and tricks, but not obedience. Combine teenage frustration with a crash course dog like Zander and an absolute desperate NEED for him NOT to kill himself, and I was heavy on the corrections. I used a prong collar because he pulled so badly. Alpha rolls, growling, hitting, screaming...it got to a point where he was locked in a kennel for the majority of his first year or two. He was "that dog". I was "that person" with "that dog" who no one ever saw. I loosened up over the years, but I never got on the PR train and didn't understand what was so wrong with CM.

My first major clue was probably working with Gustav, and how fearful he was all the time. I began resenting harsh training then, but I was confused and frustrated and there was a million other confusing and frustrating things going on in my life and that household at the time. I didn't have confidence in myself, let alone confidence in working with an extremely fear-reactive dog like Gustav. I tried, but mostly I just battled my mother over the citronella collar she used to "bandaid" his barking. I moved out a year later.

I then had to battle my mom over getting Zander. When I finally did in January, I was at a complete loss for what to do. After 7 years of struggling, I didn't know what there was left for him to learn, or where I ought to even begin. He was scared of everything. While I had stopped harsh corrections two or three years prior, he still lived in a household where teasing and tormenting dogs were the norm. He had no confidence. He had no appetite. He didn't eat for 2 weeks after we got home. All he did was pace and cry and spook at everything. He was headshy. He had no spunk. He hid in dark rooms and was constantly under my foot. He was just like me. No confidence. No love of life. He was robot dog. Just shuffling through day to day because hey, we're here. And I knew it wasn't right. It wasn't the spunky Zane I remembered.

So I finally gave in, completely, in January after about two weeks of having him starve himself. I was a huge skeptic, but I had nothing to lose. It was actually Danefied that came to our rescue and walked me through our first session. I totally took back everything I ever said about her being a hotdog trainer. :hail: Not only did it work, but we thrived. It was FUN. After just ONE 20 minute session. We started everything over from scratch. It was fantastic.

Over the last 10 months, it's just been milestone after milestone. We're both happy, relaxed, and have all the fun, all the time.

 

[SpringerLover]

Yup. First of all my family didn't believe dogs should "live" in the house. They could visit in the house, and be crated to sleep in the house... but they needed to stay outside. Also, dogs were just walked on choke chains as a matter of course, even at 8 weeks old.

I learned a ton of bad training that took a looooong time to unlearn as I had some pretty ingrained habits. My first "good book" was Morgan Spector's and I'm surprised I learned as much as I did from it, as it really isn't that great.

Really though, I "met" a friend online nearly 10 years ago now and she's the one I learned the concepts of clicker training from. She's seriously awesome at problem solving and getting super precise and specific behaviors.

Both of my dogs were taught behaviors by lure/force for many years before I learned any other effective way. And it took them a long time to trust me, but now they both offer like they've been doing it their whole lives.

 

[RD]

I was, though I "crossed over" when I was about 14.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Good Dogs, Great Owners by Barbara Woodhouse, Brian Kilcommons... still have that book. I look at it occasionally, its a reminder.

I had this book too and thought it was great Oh well, live and learn. I'm lucky Tucker was such a resilient, easy-going dog because I think had I gotten Spy first and used those methods on him I would have done a lot more damage than I did with Tucker. I still feel super guilty about it though.

 

[Danefied]

So I finally gave in, completely, in January after about two weeks of having him starve himself. I was a huge skeptic, but I had nothing to lose. It was actually Danefied that came to our rescue and walked me through our first session. I totally took back everything I ever said about her being a hotdog trainer. :hail: Not only did it work, but we thrived. It was FUN. After just ONE 20 minute session. We started everything over from scratch. It was fantastic.

Ha ha! I remember that! I remember the excitement I could feel from you
Pretty cool stuff....

And what a great reminder too Lyz... Sometimes posting any kind of training advice on a forum that’s not as PR friendly as chaz can feel like a waste of time. Especially when you have the naysayers right at your heels with every post basically saying you’re full of it. It gets old! But your post reminded me that there is always an open mind out there, thanks

 

[Taqroy]

Me. I didn't base anything off of books though - I trained dogs the way my family trained dogs with confrontation and beatings and choke/e collars. I was never harsh with my parent's dog Emmy, the first one I was old enough to train. My dad was though and she was very dog/human reactive on our property, which was likely entirely due to the shock collar.

My sister's dog though - she was completely insane as a puppy and while I would LOVE that now, at the time neither of us knew what to do with her. So we just had battle after battle with alpha rolls and choke chains and prong collars and...honestly I'm surprised she never bit either of us. She's a surprisingly well adjusted dog now actually - I would imagine my sister still hits her occasionally though("She got in the trash! She knows she did something wrong!").

Murphy had a prong collar for a long time. It was the only way I could walk him without being dragged or wrenching my shoulder out of socket. Other than that he has never had a hand laid on him - I don't know how anyone could, he's just not an adversarial dog. This sounds kind of dramatic, but getting Mu changed my entire life. I started out the same as I always had but it didn't work AT ALL. I caused her to become dog reactive and while I was googling around for solutions I found Chaz. And I found clicker training. And I tried 101 things to do with a box and my mind was blown. I started reading and researching and trying new things. I got Murphy an Easy Walk and I started shaping things with Mu. And when we moved to Springs we got into classes and my life reshaped itself around dogs and dog activities and dog training. Tipper has been trained with +R and verbal corrections only. She shuts down if you yell at her, I can't imagine what actual force would do to her.

I have to say too that I loved all of the dogs I've mentioned here. And I felt like we had a strong bond. But nothing compares to the bond I have with my dogs now. Not being at odds all the time really changes the way I view those relationships and it's so much easier to forgive things when I don't see it as "OMG you just did that make me mad" and instead as "Oh ****, we should probably have not left that out for you to destroy."

This is really long.

 

[mrose_s]

I guess. I crossed ove from being a 14 year old without a clue that wanted to train her dog but ended up getting constantly frustrated and ruining every session. Enter Chaz and I learnt about clicker training and R+ and loved it.
Last year I did my dog training certificate, I purposefully chose a well respected course that taught every quadrant of dog training. I figureed I wanted to know how and when to correctly use punishment even if I never used it myself.
I've since been back and forth on it a bit. I'm currently working with a trainer I have a lot of respect for although he does use leash corrections. I undertsnad why and when and don't have so much of an issue with how he incorporates it. I know his knowledge of learning theory is sound.

I'm still working out where I fall but I think I just want as much correct info as possible and apply what works where it's needed based on each individual dog and situation. I'm not locking myself in any boxes.

2 years ago I would have jumped on the "no compulsion ever!" wagon but now I see it's place.

 

[Linds]

So I was discussing this with someone and I thought it would be interesting to hear other people's views and thoughts so if Jackson doesn't mind I'm going to expound a bit on her thread.

What do you feel a cross over is? Is it going from one extreme to another like going from Cesar Millan to Emily Larlham? From corrections and heavy handedness to not even using non reward markers, eh eh etc.? Are you not a complete crossover trainer if you still use those or corrections in general even if you changed very much how you train?

Is it just changing your overall training outlook? Going from being a fight to a partner? Seeing a vast difference in the way you used to train and now train even if you still employ some of the same ideas and tools?

It was an interesting discussion so I thought I would open it up.

 

[Shai]

Linds that is interesting and the reason I hadn't responded to this thread yet. I wouldn't be considered a crossover trainer by the standards posted thus far. But my training had certainly evolved in terms of mindset and mechanics. Kim is my first (only counting dogs as an adult) and force-training her was never an option and something I was not interested in anyway. I think I got a clicker and started free shaping her within a week of bringing her home. But my mechanics were mediocre and my mindset was clinical and focused on getting her to do what I wanted. Which is an important though somewhat subtle difference from the present. In the intervening years, my mechanics and eye have improved drastically, but my attitude toward training has undergone a more fundamental change. For the better, I think. I'm happy with the results anyway so I guess that's what counts, right?

 

[Linds]

It's interesting. I responded to the thread with an an immediate "yes!" but I do still use squirt bottles, I use a prong when biking, I won't ever say I'll never use an ecollar, I use verbal corrections, I use non-reward markers. So if you look at it from the standpoint of having to be all in or nothing I don't come out a 'crossever' trainer.

On the flip side, if you look how far I've come and how much I've changed you can see a defiant crossing over lines going on. I went from teaching heel with nothing but collar corrections to not even using a leash while teaching heeling. I went from feeling like I had to make my dogs do it because I said to wanting to make them want to do it because it was fun.

So there was a definite come to Jesus for me which is what I saw "crossingover" being.