Who was a 'crossover' trainer?

[JacksonsMom]

Since we're speaking so much on the topic of training, Cesar, etc...

Who here was a cross-over trainer, or maybe used to like Cesar, and now has switched over to the 'other side'.

I actually loved Cesar's show and believed in everything he said. It just... made sense to me for whatever reason. However, thankfully, Jackson was never the kind of dog who 'needed' that kind of training anyways (not that ANY dog does, but you know what I'm saying), so I never utilized any of Cesar's methods on him, otherwise I'm pretty sure I would have ruined him (he's very sensitive).

But yeah I truly did believe the stuff he spouted about dominance and alpha. I take it I was just brain-washed. opcorn: So glad I quickly went to the other side - it's SO much more fun and not to mention, works!

 

[MandyPug]

Everyone knows but I crossed over from drinking the Cesar koolaid. Izzie would be a very different and probably more successful competitor if I hadn't used his techniques on her, she was very Mia-like as a puppy and is only now coming back around to that.

The reason though that I resorted to such methods was her injury at a young age. I needed her to not be crazy and not be crazy very quickly to help save the eye. So I resorted to those techniques.

 

[stardogs]

I was heavily reliant on prong collar corrections for the first year or two I had Maggie. When that sapped her joy in working *and* worsened her dog aggression, I switched to clicker training.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Not exactly the same but I used heavy collar work for Arnold, I still do not fully regret it because it did save his life when control was of the utmost importance but these days I would likely do things differently.

He, like Izzie, would likely be a totally different dog and he's really come back a long way with shaping and positive training. (He's still a dick occasionally but I've also learned that its okay sometimes as long as I can control the environment)

 

[Doberluv]

Long before Cesar came on the scene, I trained with a lot more compulsion...definitely not very harsh because I just couldn't be harsh to the animals I loved. I read Koehler and was appalled at the abuse he recommended. But I was more militant and making sure I had the "upper hand." I used choke collars, mostly for the noise effect of the sliding motion, so I didn't yank too hard or hurt their necks much. But yeah....do this or die. Back in the 60's and 70's, that was the only game in town. I finally wizened up after a while and found much better methods that did not include force or intimidation. It was not a sudden transformation. Old habits die hard.

There are those who use a lot of punishment and coercion who have the attitude that if you haven't used the harsh aversives, you just don't know what you're missing in their so called reliability. Well, most people who have trained both ways will say there's no contest...that PR is not only more effective for reliability, will mold a dog who thinks and doesn't operate in a state of avoidance, but also more fun for both dog and owner. I'm very thankful things changed. I hope they will change more for the general public.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I have never, ever understood the "sound" theory of the slip collar. My collars don't make noise it seems? I guess I have rarely used metal slips and even then I never let them get loose and low on the neck but still, that ideal perplexes me.

Not to knock it, or anyone who's used it, and I am sure plenty of methods perplex a lot if people but that one has always been odd to me.

 

[Emily]

I have never, ever understood the "sound" theory of the slip collar. My collars don't make noise it seems? I guess I have rarely used metal slips and even then I never let them get loose and low on the neck but still, that ideal perplexes me.

I dunno, but last week I was at a local AKC club with the girls, and in the novice class during group heeling (God, I HATE group heeling) all I heard was, "HEEL!" followed that familiar sound of a choke chain ripping shut.

Keeva was looking around like, "Oh my GOD, Mom, WHAT ARE THEY DOING?!"

 

[elegy]

Yep. I used prong collar corrections with Luce to try to fix her dog-aggression/reactivity after I got her. It didn't work. Somebody taught me a better way. I have never looked back.

 

[Greenmagick]

Me! Oh me....you should see some of the previous posts I made on other forums back in the day. I was all about dominance theory and corrections.

Right before I got Ivy I even ordered a bunch of Milan's books and videos...luckily right along with Bones and McConnell stuff

 

[Danefied]

*Raises hand* Me!
I consider myself a crossover trainer. Not a CM follower though, I grew up with Barbara Woodhouse and later The Monks of New Skeete. Choke chains, collar corrections etc.

I did buy CM's first book - Be the Pack Leader I think? And in the back it recommended something by Patricia McConnell for further reading. Next time I was in B&N I picked up "The Other End of the Leash" and liked it way better!

For me the process of crossing over was LONG - years long. Even though I did them, I always disliked the collar pops and forced obedience. At one point I considered getting in to competing, but I would look at what other people were doing to train their dog and basically said "if that's what it takes to get him competition ready, I don't want to compete." I continued some of the heavy handed stuff for basic manners simply because I knew no other way.

In the early 90's I ended up with an off the track TB who was trying to kill people for minor things like wormings, shots and loading in a trailer. I figured out how to "bribe" him (and it was truly bribing) and I figured out how to not turn everything in to a power struggle, in to a fight.
It was a great lesson, and you would think I would have transferred that over to the dogs, but I was still clueless. And really the only reason I avoided power struggles with that horse is because he would rear and take swipes at your head with his front feet. IOW he would have killed me eventually. I wasn't doing it because I thought I was doing anything "right" or "better", I was just trying to figure out how we could co-exist. That horse lived to be 26 and passed a year ago this month.

What clinched it for me was having kids. We had older, well mannered dogs when the kids came along, but every so often we'd still have to correct for something or another. (Another issue with confrontational training - the confrontation never ends.)
I remember one day, I grabbed Mel's cheek and "growled" at him because he was making faces at Biko while I was handing out leftovers. Right as I released him, I looked over, and there were two sets of toddler eyes, big as sawcers, watching me. Two thoughts entered my head 1) they've never seen that side of me, and b) they're going to try that out next time a dog (or fellow toddler) pisses them off.

At that point, finally, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I did NOT want my children seeing me employ any form of "might makes right". And right then I decided we were going to do this some other way. I dug out McConnell's book again, searched for books like this on amazon, read Clothier's Bones, and the rest is history.

 

[AllisonPitbullLvr]

I forced my dog to endure an entire Brad Pattison CT-run course. Ughhhh:

 

[milos_mommy]

Nope....I'm pretty young (22) and started training dogs as a hobby around 9 or 10 years old...Cesar wasn't around back then. It was a lot of Good Dog U on Animal Planet, but I don't really remember if I took that to heart. I started clicker training really young, probably at 11 or 12 years old.

I suppose until I was older I did believe in dominance theory and such...but never applied it to training, really. I guess I believed I need to be alpha, but figured that enforcing rules and not letting the dog fail set that up perfectly well without alpha rolling the dog or shoving myself through doorways before them.

I did read some BIZARRE training techniques in some old (1950s era) dog training books at the school library. Most of that seemed to involved shaking a can full of rocks at your dog to deter them from certain behaviors.

 

[Linds]

Me! Kinda, sorta. I used to rely much more heavily on prong collars and corrections. I would say I tended towards the "balanced" area with use of treats for tricks and corrections for OB.

I was never a huge CM fan, liked him, watched his show once in a blue moon but that was about it. Used some of his philosophies such as being polite at the door and walking at a heel. Which worked ok since I was working with a dog that didn't get walked because of her pulling and would charge the door. Could have gone about it way different and would now, but all's well that ends well.

Mainly, I think what I always heard and liked to disagree with in my infinite "I know everything" wisdom was that as you become a better trainer the need for corrections diminishes drastically. I still use them now, typically non reward markers, voice corrections and the evil squirt bottle but I don't justify them as "necessity" anymore. And as I get better the amount of times I use them lessens.

I also started to see the joy in dogs that don't sit and wait to be told what to do but rather figure out what you want them to do. I used to make fun of people with dogs that threw behaviors when excited and now I completely get it. I don't WANT to correct for the wrong behavior more times than not because I want them offering behaviors and trying things.

The best thing I did was stop trying to prove a point about what worked and what didn't. Instead I just trained, worked with my dogs and watched what they flourished under.

 

[Riobravo]

Me. I grew up training dogs under old police dog trainers. It was chock chains and dominating everything. I was always a small person and I hate conflict of any kind. I was never good at that form of training. As I became more involved with the internet, I started learning more and more and started letting go of those beliefs and looking for a kinder (and easier) way. I did hang on to some methods for a lot longer than I'm happy to admit to. I used a prong collar on Rio for an early part of his training. I'm sure that didn't help with his dog reactivity.

My big change over occured though because I worked as a zookeeper and was able to communicate to these animals without ever having to lay a hand on them. I really began to wonder why I could get these itty bitty monkeys to come over and offer an arm for a blood test without using any kind of force but couldn't teach my dog to walk on a leash without a prong collar? I started reading even more and made a commitment to my dogs to be better for them. I'm not perfect, but we've made a lot of progress and I think my dogs are much happier now.

 

[Doberluv]

I have never, ever understood the "sound" theory of the slip collar. My collars don't make noise it seems? I guess I have rarely used metal slips and even then I never let them get loose and low on the neck but still, that ideal perplexes me.

Not to knock it, or anyone who's used it, and I am sure plenty of methods perplex a lot if people but that one has always been odd to me.

A heavy enough choke collar that is loose enough...where you have some play will make a metal on metal sound that works as a conditioned punisher when there have been instances of pain following the sound of the chain sliding through the ring. So, pretty soon, all you need is the sound of metal sliding on metal, with an occasional yank to keep it on a variable schedule of punishing. (that sounds so weird now)

 

[Southpaw]

Not really, because Juno is the first dog I've trained, so I had already been on this forum for years and knew all about R+ and why the dominance stuff is silly.

I used to watch a lot of Cesar. Thought he was awesome and that he obviously knew what he was doing. Luckily at the time, I had a senior dog that didn't need any "training", and Lucy was a very mellow and easy going puppy that didn't really need any training, either. So I never felt the need to employ ANY sort of training techniques, let alone the ones that Cesar was demonstrating.

It is a darn good thing I knew better by the time I got Juno, though. Because I probably would have "Dog Whispered" the heck out of her. Not for actual "training" because even when I was a kid I knew to use praise/treats when doing tricks with Molly or trying to teach her new things... but for naughty puppy behaviors yeah I would have done more corrections. I don't think it would have shut her down or broken her spirit or anything, I couldn't have made myself be THAT heavy handed and Juno is not THAT sensitive. But Juno does not learn that way, so I don't think we would have had good results and it would have just made me more frustrated.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Not CM, but I grew up with techniques that involved coercion, and not using rewards (beyond praise). When I got my first dog as an adult (my first Stafford, Elmo), and wanted to compete in obedience, I started him in a class that used what they called "modified Koehler". They did use treats, but also choke collars. Or prong, but I refused to use the prong collar.

I trained the dog and got his CD, but his heelwork was always weak. Also, I started training the formal retrieve on my own. I don't know what they'd have done in that class, but I wasn't willing to ear pinch so that wasn't on the table. A friend in the breed sent me copies of a couple of clicker-training methods, and I picked one to use (Lana Mitchell's "The Clicked Retriever", and I used a marker word, because I didn't use a clicker yet at that time) So that was my first try at operant conditioning. Meanwhile, before we went into Open, I had to retrain his heelwork so he'd be good enough for Open and Utility; which I did by pairing the activity with toys. The retrieve was the only thing I shaped with that dog, but definitely after I undid the damage I'd done with the collar training, I worked him +R.

With my next dog (Tully), I shaped, but tried to introduce corrections when I thought she knew the activity. It backfired massively, and I lost a month or 2 of training time when she was young, because she refused to work with me. It wasn't until I was training her daughter, Tess, that I finally used a clicker. I'd been avoiding them, but when Tess was a pup, a friend was playing with her with a clicker, and she responded so keenly I decided to throw my prejudice aside.

So I am a crossover trainer, I guess, but I didn't spend a lot of time on the other side, because it just didn't work very well for me.

 

[RBark]

I don't know if it counts but I went from "not seeing the value of training" to seeing value in it. I thought Milan and McConnell were both equally over-obessive about dogs. It was a moderator on Dogforums.com (Curbside Prophet) and a certain agility-loving friend that I went through the process of learning with years ago which changed my perception. Working as a volunteer in Norsled Siberian Husky rescue solidified my decision that there is value in it, and Learning Theory based training with a strong lean to positive reinforcement/shaping was my stance.

Though I do use a e-collar when I feel the situation merits it (and use it under Learning Theory principles, not Dominance mumbo jumbo) I have only used it to train recall in one o my dogs. The other, I decided management is best. And Priscilla was Priscilla, ultra focused on me since puppyhood and would never have needed an e-collar under any circumstance. I've since faded the e-collar from Kobe and have not used it for recall in a year or more.

So I never really was Milan-like in my training, but I definitely was of the "anything goes, let dogs be dogs" mindset.

 

[BlackPuppy]

I am sort of. My first dog came from the trainer with a prong. I started out all "dominant", but after some classes I dumped the prong and never used one on any other dog.

I had a bark collar for my Malinois puppy. One day I put it on that "first dog" because he was barking a lot that day and suddenly I had a different dog. I actually saw him droop and go into a depression before my eyes. Obviously, somebody used an ecollar to train him at one point and was not to nice about it. I stopped using the bark collar after that.

 

[monkeys23]

Me! Kinda, sorta. I used to rely much more heavily on prong collars and corrections. I would say I tended towards the "balanced" area with use of treats for tricks and corrections for OB.

This here as well. It got to the point where the prong collar was causing Lily to shut down when we worked on heeling and positions. She was very "distracted," sniffy, and very subdued... not at all flashy. I basically tossed it to the side and said screw that and we didn't do any formal training for a long **** time. She's great in public anyway so who cares.

Luckily I was smart enough to know before even taking Scout in officially that she would need an approach without any physical corrections and found a good trainer to work with. CU and BAT stuff has a made a world of difference in Scout's quality of life.

And when I went back and started retraining Lily's foundation, oh my goodness talk about enthusiamsm!!! LOL
Had to teach her how to think and offer stuff, but omg its so much fun! I'm glad she's so forgiving and willing to work with me. I can't go back in time and change how we started, but I'm very happy with where we are now.