Treat young offenders more harshly

[ACooper]

I just don't know if I believe you don't have the capabilities to consider future consequence until you're in your twenties..................Of course like RD pointed out there must be exeptions, but to think that a majority does not have "equipment" for this reasoning........I don't buy it. I could totally agree there is a minority that this could be true of.

I went to school with, and my kids are going to school with....kids that are actively planning their future everyday. Some of these kids have crappy parents that couldn't even tell you what classes their kids are taking or what colleges they have applied to. These kids work, save money, buy their own cars & clothes.................they obviously can plan for the future.

The kids I think would most be in question are the kids that feel they have NO future to plan. In most cases, these are the danger zone kids.

 

[Jules]

I absolutely do no agree with this. Well...but then, I do not agree a whole lot with the current justice system anyway
Yes, a 13 year old generally knows right from wrong, but I do not think they they fully understand *all* consequences of their actions. They may not know how drastically one event will change their live forever.

And by simply giving the kids adult sentences? What good is that going to do? In my humble opinion, we should concentrate more on rehabilitating them and giving them an outlook for the future when they get out of Juvie Detention. And I will say what I always to people who usually start to moan and groan now when they mention the costs of all this "nonsense": I'd rather pay for an individual to get therapy, his GED, and have some chances when he gets out than to have stricter laws, higher incarceration rates, and pay for his bed in prison for the next 10 years.

 

[Meggie]

The thing is that this is talking about repeat and violent offenders. No, I don't believe they should be "punished" by handing them adult sentences, but the system does need to change in a drastic way from what it is now. The young offenders have more protection than their victims. Very little can be said about their crimes for fear that the offender is somehow identified. Great, as if the offender's neighbours don't already know he's going down the wrong path?

So, identify them so people know. Kids may not understand the full scope of violence, but they do understand humiliation.

If they're sentenced a little more harshly (but please, not serving in an adult prison) perhaps it will give them a chance to really get back on their feet and make something of themselves. At least they'd get an education and plenty of quiet time to study.

 

[casablanca1]

It's sad. It's like bsl--something that is a response to a genuine problem
where a frustrated government facing the breakdown of the fair but expensive and time-consuming system of individualized, case-by-case processing of conflicts turns to a shortcut that penalizes everyone. It's cyclical. Conservative governments go with their instincts to solve the problem that bothers them most--crime--with increased penalties. Then a liberal government will come back in power and reverse it to focus on the problem that bothers them most--government power--and the problem never gets solved.

 

[sparks19]

If they're sentenced a little more harshly (but please, not serving in an adult prison) perhaps it will give them a chance to really get back on their feet and make something of themselves. At least they'd get an education and plenty of quiet time to study.

I definately agree that they should not serve it in an adult prison until they are an adult but they should definately be given heftier sentences than they are giving out now.

Of course I am of the frame of mind that if the police call me and tell me my child has stolen a car or even something as silly as a CD I will not bail them out right away. They can sit in their holding cell for a few hours or even over night. Then they will have to deal with any additional sentencing by the judge.

Perhaps a kid should not spend life in jail for one violent crime.... however, if that kid serves a sentence and goes back out and commits another violent crime then YES they should be subject to harsh sentencing. They have been punished for the initial crime... you can't say they don't fully understand what they have done when they have been punished and go out and do it again.

I just wonder how many people these kids should be allowed to seriously injure or even murder before they should be treated as adults.

I remember a horrible story that happened in my home town only a few years ago. A "gang" grabbed a kid when he came off the school bus, beat him, tied a belt around his neck and dragged his beaten body around. That child suffered severe injury and almost died. This was not the only incident from this "gang". The police caught ONE kid, he went to court..... and got PROBATION. WHAT???!!!! They brutally beat many kids and almost killed them and no one wanted to do anything about it because "they are just kids" "boys will be boys". Of course this kids name was never released to the public so no one knew who they should worry about. BTW the kid that was caught was 17 years old. They eventually caught a few others that ranged from 13-17. You are telling me these kids didn't know what they were doing? I don't feel sorry for them at all.... I feel sorry for the kids that had to continue to be beaten and tortured at the hands of these demons.

I remember taking a Law class in highschool when I was 16 and even then I was outraged at the slap on the wrist these "young offenders" get. I was underage and STILL understood this was totally wrong. Day in and Day out in my highschool I saw fight after fight.... and not one on one but a group of kids ganging up on one or two kids. And these kids were allowed back in school. if they got suspended it was for a week. No police involvement. Very sad. People are more concerned about protecting these monsters rather than the REAL victims of these crimes.

 

[sparks19]

ADD:

Unfortunately, in too many cases these actions are for FUN. The last example in my last post is just that. /these kids went out with the INTENTION of causing pain and suffering to others. They beat and torture those smaller and weaker than them just to get their kicks. While this is not ALWAYS the case, it is important to get these menaces off the streets. It may not be the best solution for them but I am far more concerned with the safety of the innocent victims rather than these hellions that think it is fun to see someone in pain. Put them in jail and THEN figure out how to rehabilitate them or whatever but GET THEM OFF THE STREETS.

 

[Dreeza]

ADD:

Unfortunately, in too many cases these actions are for FUN. The last example in my last post is just that. /these kids went out with the INTENTION of causing pain and suffering to others. They beat and torture those smaller and weaker than them just to get their kicks. While this is not ALWAYS the case, it is important to get these menaces off the streets. It may not be the best solution for them but I am far more concerned with the safety of the innocent victims rather than these hellions that think it is fun to see someone in pain. Put them in jail and THEN figure out how to rehabilitate them or whatever but GET THEM OFF THE STREETS.

very good point.

I think we need to have a better system for anyone that commits a violent crime...one that TEACHES them compassion and what not...

how anyone can do some of these things for FUN is so beyond me...it makes me nauseated just THINKING of it.

 

[Buckshot]

I commited enough crime in my younger days to earn probably 10 years worth of hard time, if both offenses would have been caught.

I am a tax paying member of society, I vote (I know that scares you), I served the military and I havent commited any other criminal offenses since my very early 20s. I had some very postive rolemodels in my life that put me on the straight and narrow. They didnt preach, they showed me a better way through life by being honest and treating others as they want to be treated. If I would have been caught and most people had their way, I would have spent ten years being surrounded by very bad people. Then after my time in jail I wouldnt know how to do much other than mop floors. What would my options be? Come from the filth and want to show the public that I can be responsible? Or would I take the easier path of drug sales and have some cash in my pocket?

Instead of me earning money, paying taxes, learning and trying to be more successful in life, many here would have rather paid the insane amount of money to keep me in a cage. Those ten years where I was learning skills to make it on the outside would have been ten years learning skills to make it on the inside. Those are not skills you want the people around you and your family to have.

I know you all dont like bad people, I dont either, but what are we setting up for the future?

 

[Saje]

Not only that BS but you would have learned easier and faster ways to commit crimes.

I know a guy who at about 13 was hanging outside a store with his friends. Someone stopped at the store and being cold Alberta weather they left their car running. Bored, these guys stole it, got arrested, went to jail and learned not only how to properly steal cars but how to get away with it. And guess what they did when they got out?

 

[stevinski]

I have mates who have been to Juvi, etc

it does stop them, but only to a point, they wont intentionally go out looking for a fight, but everyone can get too carried away, and then theres peer presure and when people are under the influences of something, etc.

I think that stricter laws will definetly affect things, bt most ppl dnt actually care because their record gets whiped at 18, so they believe they can do all they want, because when their 18 it all goes away

 

[keyodie]

I don't think kids should be treated as harshly as adults. First of all, kids are not yet fully mature. We should know this anyway, but it is also scientifically proven. They do not have as much maturity, experience, stability, sense of right and wrong, or awareness. They also have a whole life ahead of them.

Once you gain all of these traits, you are less likely to act recklessly. If you still act against the law after gaining them, that person is more dangerous than a younger child that commited the same act.

But, I think that they should be tried harsher (not as harsh as adults) if they took another person's life or did something damaging/harmful repetitively. The punishment should not be so severe that the 70 to 80+ years ahead of them are completely ruined (life in prison/death penalty) but severe enough that they know what they did was extremely wrong.

 

[sparks19]

Well then I suppose we should just let these kids do whatever they want and HOPE a mentor comes into their life?

The thing is.... these kids aren't kids forever.... they do become adults and can be just as dangerous if not more so. There is a difference from doing stupid things as a kid and potentially murdering someone. I just can't be on the side that they are just stupid kids. Stupid kid or not you MURDERED someone. You beat someone to a pulp for fun. You should PAY for it. stealing a car is one thing but kids that repeatedly cause violent crimes NEED to be stopped and if jail is the only way we have right now then it is better than nothing.

I said it once and I will say it a million times. I am far more concerned about the people these kids are hurting than about their future.

 

[keyodie]

I'm not saying we should let mini-murderers just go run around and keep killing people just because they're kids. I just don't think it's very reasonable to try them as adults. Adult murderers are much more dangerous than kids. Kids can change (or have more of a chance to), adults can't. Kids are still inexperienced, unaware, immature, etc... They still have a chance to become better people. Kids that commit crimes usually have a darker childhood, parents that don't care, and so on. But the good thing is, they can change. It would be cruel to put them in prison for over 60 years (for life) when they still have potential.

 

[sparks19]

I'm not saying we should let mini-murderers just go run around and keep killing people just because they're kids. I just don't think it's very reasonable to try them as adults. Adult murderers are much more dangerous than kids. Kids can change (or have more of a chance to), adults can't. Kids are still inexperienced, unaware, immature, etc... They still have a chance to become better people. Kids that commit crimes usually have a darker childhood, parents that don't care, and so on. But the good thing is, they can change. It would be cruel to put them in prison for over 60 years (for life) when they still have potential.

Yes but reoffenders should be treated the same as first timers? If a kid kills someone, goes to jail, gets out and kills someone else or attempts to then I think that kid should be tried as an adult. They have proven that they obviously have no regard for others and no remorse for what they have done. They were given a chance, they killed again. That's it.

 

[keyodie]

But, are they as immoral as an adult that does the same? Adults are aware of the harm they can cause others and the destruction in the world, know what is right and wrong, and their brains are fully developed. They know what they are doing and can take better control of their anger.

Kids aren't experienced. They haven't been in this world as long. They aren't as aware of the harm in the world as adults. If someone, an adult, commits a crime, they know the harm they can cause. They know that the victim's loved ones will be hurt tremendously (especially if they went through something similar themselves, which is what I mean by experience). They know all of these things.

I don't think that young murderers are completely ignorant of the pain they can cause. But, they don't know as much. They probably havn't gone through as many deaths/seperations/etc. as adults have, since they havn't been in this world as long. (Though there are definitely exceptions.) Because of this, I just don't think they should be tried as adults. They should definitely be punished, but not so much that their whole life, the one life they have, is destroyed.

 

[sparks19]

Hmmm I disagree.

I know fully grown adults that have never had to deal with a death yet.

I think the first time you could use that excuse that they don't understand or can't control themselves but a second time? I do'nt go for that. The first time it happens they find out the consequences and find out the permanency of death and the pain their actions caused. Once they do it a second time they have shown they don't care about that. perhaps they should not spend life in prison but it should definately be a few years at the very least.

Of course I don't know any teenager between 13 and 17 that doesn't understand death and the pain it causes. Kids aren't stupid. Yes they are going through hormonal changes but that's not a good enough excuse for me.

Afterall I am pregnant for the first time and going through some very strange and extreme hormone changes that I have never dealt with but that's not an excuse for me to go out and injure someone for fun.

One time can be an accident.... two times.... not so much.

 

[keyodie]

Yes, exactly. Not for their whole life, but a good chunk of their life in prison if they repetitively commit a crime. I do agree with you to some extent, but I still believe that kids aren't as mature/experienced/aware/blah blah blah as adults. I believe that simply because they havn't been living as long...they havn't made as many mistakes, watched others make mistakes, gained knowledge from current events, etc., etc.

No, they aren't stupid. Maturity, Experience, Awareness, and all the stuff I talked about isn't about intelligence. These are things that you gain as you grow older. Mainly, kids can't control their anger as well as adults because they havn't learned (as well) to just let it go. They havn't dealt with all the different kinds of consequences that can occur with all kinds of mistakes. The world isn't a fair place, there is nothing you can do about it, and you don't need to take out your anger on the world because everyone is living in the same place. You slowly begin to understand that as you gain knowledge and experience. That's why kids live with their parents...they wouldn't be able to survive completely on their own because of the physical AND mental reasons.

Yeah, there are definitely exceptions. I've heard about kids that are 12~13 that go through more deaths and losses than most adults do in their lifetime. I also know of adults that are 35 and still havn't dealt with many losses. Those 12 and 13 year olds are usually more at risk of becoming a criminal because they had to deal with those things at too young of an age and can't handle it as well as someone that is older. But that's a whole different story. Those kids think the whole world is against them, they go to counseling, and so on...

I do agree though about the repetitive murders. If they take someone's life, that is real serious. They should definitely go to jail for a few years. I'm against death penalty, prison for life, and being as harsh as adults towards kids.

 

[Dani]

We discussed this in socials recently, and was a topic up for debate in mock parliament. My party was against the bill, but I generally side with it. There are a few problems that need to be worked out, however.

It's unreasonable to send an 11-or-12-year-old to prison. Their criminal behaviour would be worsened by the environment.

They are planning to change the rehabilitation process from being nature and life skills based to more boot camp style. It is a matter of opinion whether this prepares the youth when they re-enter the real world.

I only briefly read the article, but those were two important points that were brought up when we were studying the proposed amends in class.

There is no doubt that the current law needs to be changed. Kids that vicously kill and commit other serious offences are constantly getting away with a few meager months worth of jail time, and then they're off on probation or house arrest. Youth aren't taking the law seriously.

 

[Zoom]

Just to pull out on part of Keyo's post...if you are going to send a person to jail for the majority of their life, be kind and just keep them in there for life. The formative social years would be spent behind bars and then being released into the outside world would, I imagine, border on cruel and unusual since they would have no idea how to get along with civvies.

I know, I know "they're hardened criminals, they don't deserve kindness"...but there is some point where you have to take the other persons psyche into consideration.

As far as the kids today and the consequences for today...bring back the chain gangs of yore. Make them do something instead of sitting on their butts for 22 hours a day. Paint a house, pick up trash...there's stuff out there.

 

[keyodie]

Zoom- That statement was mainly rhetorical, but you're right. It would be kinder to just keep them in there for the rest of their life. The point in me saying that was basically the fact that they SHOULD be punished by being taken away from their usual world for a while...just enough so they start taking the law seriously.

Whether they go to jail or not though, I think kids and adults should be seperated.