lolas dad, id put money that the reason you havent seen horses on the trail your on is because concrete is incredibly hard on a horses body, most riders will not ride their horses on concrete unless they have to, and most people looking to trail ride dont want concrete under their horses feet no matter how pretty the PATH is...
This is kind of crappy...
- Thread starter Gramps Fish
- Start date
Well Gramps with all this thread how it wound up being 16 pages so far I say go ahead write the letter, Speak to the board in person. Get something done because there is one thing you never want to ever give up and that is your right to free speech. Seems like some here are against writing a letter like that but the way I see it they have a right to write a letter also in opposition of yours which they seem to be forgetting.
As I said earlier with the trail I was talking about there are no horses because they are required to pick up after them so if they make a law like that for this trail also I am sure people would stop using it. This way the politicians can say both sides won.
As I said earlier with the trail I was talking about there are no horses because they are required to pick up after them so if they make a law like that for this trail also I am sure people would stop using it. This way the politicians can say both sides won.
It's asphalt not concrete. Asphalt is a bit softer not that that will make a difference of people riding horses on it though. There are other parks with trails that horses ride on that are dirt trails and I have seen people dismount to clean up after their horses on it. So it can be done, perhaps the owners horses that would be spooked by seeing a jogger, dog, walker or bicyclist should not have that horse on a multi use trail as it could be a danger to others. Just as it would be to have an aggressive dog in a dog park.
Yeah yeah, the majority wins because of whiners...I've seen it with BSL - people who think they're doing good but are only ****ing up things worse.
Same goes for your dog, you'll be seeing the same signs, whether or not YOU pick up your dog **** or not.
I think bicyclists should be banned, their tires can damage a fragile ecosystem
ATV's too, and cars, planes, and horses...we should all walk!
Just keep in mind, anytime someone lobbies for something like this they are adding more restrictions for their own convenience. How selfish.
Same goes for your dog, you'll be seeing the same signs, whether or not YOU pick up your dog **** or not.
I think bicyclists should be banned, their tires can damage a fragile ecosystem
ATV's too, and cars, planes, and horses...we should all walk!Just keep in mind, anytime someone lobbies for something like this they are adding more restrictions for their own convenience. How selfish.
Like I said I have not been on a horse in 4 years, I don't own or ride. I don't have any interest in ATV's or bikes, but I don't want anymore regulations put on them, none at all. I thought it was stupid when they banned bikes from the sidewalks here, and as the pedestrian this was supposed to be for my own good lol.
As far as I'm concerned the more "in the dark" the "authorities" are kept about something, the better off it will be. Otherwise, people in a position of power who do not understand what they are doing will inevitably **** it up.
Gramps, I see what you're saying. And of course your point is valid.
But then you say you want to send a letter to do exactly what you just wrote a post about trying to prevent from happening... that is, people complaining about horse manure. I don't get it.
It's not like people write in and say "I WANT HORSES BANNED NOW!!!" they say "Horses shouldn't be allowed on trails because I find the feces disgusting" or just "there is a problem on trail such and such with horse crap." To which the parks board will go, "Hmm, what can we do about this?" and then will either tell horse people to clean up after their horses or they will decide that it's too troublesome and will ban horses, all by themselves.
What are you going to say in your letter "the horses are leaving road apples on the trail and no one is cleaning them up"? So how is that any different?
Listen, you've been on this trail once, right? Horse useage is not currently threatened, right? So how do you know if your letter isn't going to do more harm than good? Why not just leave well enough alone?
If people spent even 1/5th the amount of energy it took to whine about the virtures of poop vs. no poop on fighting to keep our constitutional rights, we'd be in a lot better shape. Yes, exercise your right to free speech. And while you're at it, everyone should find out if their state has anything in the works as far as challenging the federal governement on their trashing of the 10th amendment. That's next on my agenda when I go back to Idaho. The federal gov. has gone so far afield to ignore the constitution, it's down right scary. I hope everyone will put their money where their mouth is and put the consitution ahead of horse poo or no horse poo. Not that it isn't valid to have an opinion, but there are much bigger issues at hand.
FoxyWench, when I made my initial post, I wasn't real sure how I felt about horse manure on the "multi-use" path - I just felt it was kind of strange that there were signs saying folks had to clean up after their dogs, but no requirements for horse riders to do the same - especially since in the 4 mile walk I saw only 1 pile of uncollected dog poop and over a dozen piles of horse manure (keep in mind we were on the "shared" portion of the path for only a mile and half or so).
As I read the posts in the thread, and did some research on the Internet, I came to several conclusions.
First, on horse-only trails and areas, horse droppings are normal and expected. On multi-use trails, horse droppings are considered to something that reduces non-horse riders' enjoyment of the trails. If I had to give just one reason why I feel that way, I'd say it is because the Horse Rider's Etiquette Guide (endorsed by all kinds of "horse friendly" groups) says that riders should kick the manure off of multi-use trails. The guidelines make absolutely no mention of dealing with manure on horse-only trails.
Second, a Google search for horse dropping complaints turns up a raft of web sites that talk about park districts, municipalities and other places with multi-use trails getting complaints about horse manure on multi-use trails. So the direct answer to your question is that I don't assume other folks have a problem with manure left on multi-use trails - the Internet has a bunch of reports of people complaining and of horses being banned from multi-use trails.
The third conclusion I reached, based solely on the responses to my posts here, is that a lot of folks who ride horses in multi-use areas have an "if you don't like to see horse poop on a multi-use trail, tough luck - go elsewhere or shut up" attitude, which comes through loud and clear as they provide a list of reasons why they can't or won't or shouldn't be responsible for cleaning up manure their horses leave on multi-use trails.
The State of Colorado did a trail usage survey and determined that 4% of their statewide trail usage was by folks riding horses. I don't imagine the percentage is much higher anywhere else in the country, but even if some places have double that usage, you're still talking only 8% of the trail usage is by horse riders.
That means that well over 90% of the people using trails are not horse riders. So when those folks start complaining about horse manure on the trails (whether it is justified or not), what's going to happen?
It is unfortunate, but the vast majority of folks won't take the time to do any research or try to see the other side of the story. How many of the riders reading this thread knew that a fair number of horse-related organizations endorse a set of guidelines that clearly state riders should kick their horse's manure off a multi-use trail? And how many of the non-riders reading this thread knew that while the EPA considers horse manure to be a solid waste, the manure is so benign that they don't regulate it?
Quite frankly, if my park district had a public meeting where folks could discuss the "problem" of horse manure on the trails, I'd attend the meeting, say that I thought the horse riders should be allowed to continue using the multi-use paths, and suggest the county set up a system where folks who used the trail could get together every week and spend a few hours cleaning things up - riders and non-riders alike.
While I could make a very good case for the benefits of such a system, I'm afraid that suggestion would get voted down and, just like my neighbor the pig farmer got kicked out of his land and dogs in my area have been kicked out of some really nice green spaces, it would be "bye-bye horses."
I don't know when it is going to happen, but I am convinced that if the horse riders in my area don't find a way to clean horse droppings from the multi-use paths, the folks who walk, run, and bicycle on those multi-use paths are going to complain to the park board about the mess the horses leave on the trails.
If horse riders are proactive and find a way to keep the multi-use paths clean, they'll be able to share the paths with other users for years to come.
I suspect a bunch or riders here will disagree with my conclusions, and that is their prerogative. After all, they have much more at stake them I do, since I'm not one of the folks who rides horses in multi-use areas.
Have a GREAT day!
Rob
As I read the posts in the thread, and did some research on the Internet, I came to several conclusions.
First, on horse-only trails and areas, horse droppings are normal and expected. On multi-use trails, horse droppings are considered to something that reduces non-horse riders' enjoyment of the trails. If I had to give just one reason why I feel that way, I'd say it is because the Horse Rider's Etiquette Guide (endorsed by all kinds of "horse friendly" groups) says that riders should kick the manure off of multi-use trails. The guidelines make absolutely no mention of dealing with manure on horse-only trails.
Second, a Google search for horse dropping complaints turns up a raft of web sites that talk about park districts, municipalities and other places with multi-use trails getting complaints about horse manure on multi-use trails. So the direct answer to your question is that I don't assume other folks have a problem with manure left on multi-use trails - the Internet has a bunch of reports of people complaining and of horses being banned from multi-use trails.
The third conclusion I reached, based solely on the responses to my posts here, is that a lot of folks who ride horses in multi-use areas have an "if you don't like to see horse poop on a multi-use trail, tough luck - go elsewhere or shut up" attitude, which comes through loud and clear as they provide a list of reasons why they can't or won't or shouldn't be responsible for cleaning up manure their horses leave on multi-use trails.
The State of Colorado did a trail usage survey and determined that 4% of their statewide trail usage was by folks riding horses. I don't imagine the percentage is much higher anywhere else in the country, but even if some places have double that usage, you're still talking only 8% of the trail usage is by horse riders.
That means that well over 90% of the people using trails are not horse riders. So when those folks start complaining about horse manure on the trails (whether it is justified or not), what's going to happen?
It is unfortunate, but the vast majority of folks won't take the time to do any research or try to see the other side of the story. How many of the riders reading this thread knew that a fair number of horse-related organizations endorse a set of guidelines that clearly state riders should kick their horse's manure off a multi-use trail? And how many of the non-riders reading this thread knew that while the EPA considers horse manure to be a solid waste, the manure is so benign that they don't regulate it?
Quite frankly, if my park district had a public meeting where folks could discuss the "problem" of horse manure on the trails, I'd attend the meeting, say that I thought the horse riders should be allowed to continue using the multi-use paths, and suggest the county set up a system where folks who used the trail could get together every week and spend a few hours cleaning things up - riders and non-riders alike.
While I could make a very good case for the benefits of such a system, I'm afraid that suggestion would get voted down and, just like my neighbor the pig farmer got kicked out of his land and dogs in my area have been kicked out of some really nice green spaces, it would be "bye-bye horses."
I don't know when it is going to happen, but I am convinced that if the horse riders in my area don't find a way to clean horse droppings from the multi-use paths, the folks who walk, run, and bicycle on those multi-use paths are going to complain to the park board about the mess the horses leave on the trails.
If horse riders are proactive and find a way to keep the multi-use paths clean, they'll be able to share the paths with other users for years to come.
I suspect a bunch or riders here will disagree with my conclusions, and that is their prerogative. After all, they have much more at stake them I do, since I'm not one of the folks who rides horses in multi-use areas.
Have a GREAT day!
Rob
I have a 23 year old mare that I have had since she was 4. She was an awesome trail horse in her younger years. I took her to our county fair 6 years in a row. I rode her bareback along the side of a highway when I was a teenager (not something I recommend BTW) and she didn't spook once on that trip. i road her on hundreds, maybe thousands of miles of trails over the years. She'd go out by herself, go through water, pretty much go anywhere you pointed her.
However, all that being said, she is still a horse, and still has the brain of a horse. Occasionally, even after all the years on the trails, a jogger, hiker, etc, would spook her. it happens to the best of them. A more accurate comparison would be to say that only dogs without teeth should be allowed in the dog park.....
However, all that being said, she is still a horse, and still has the brain of a horse. Occasionally, even after all the years on the trails, a jogger, hiker, etc, would spook her. it happens to the best of them. A more accurate comparison would be to say that only dogs without teeth should be allowed in the dog park.....
I am rather shocked horse poop is such a big deal......
I have not rode since I was a kid, but have come across horse poop lots, we let some of our neighbors ride the lanes on our farm, and I walk my dogs there as well. I remember thinking that I wished my dogs poop would go away as fast as their horses!!!
As to people moving in and then wanting the "stinky pig farm" or "noisy race track" that was there first shut down.... well that is a huge pet peeve of rural farmers, and a big part of the reason many won't split off a lot to sell even if they could. We have one parcel of land that could have had a lot severed off it, and a local family wanted us to sell it to them... We would not even consider it, they kept saying we would never cause you any trouble, and while we know they wouldn't... What happens if they have to sell and the new owner hates the sound of our machines at work, or our kids enjoying their ATVs, or the Donkey my friend wants carrying on, or the roosters crowing in the am, and so on..... Or they will behave like guy the farmer next door had to deal with... He was taking his tractor from his farm up the road to ours to work a field for us, he was on a smaller open tractor one that easily fits between the lines, he always moves over as much as he can when he hears a car... This big fancy expensive car came up behind him, at speed, driving it was a well dressed 30ish man who started blowing the horn and tailgating the Tractor, pulled out passed and pulled in in front of him, slammed the brakes on the floored it and took off... Spraying him with gravel while giving him the finger...
It is sad that rural folks hang on to land they could spare, even to other rural people, because of the fear of a vocal few moving to the country and wanting no part of anything that annoys them....
I have not rode since I was a kid, but have come across horse poop lots, we let some of our neighbors ride the lanes on our farm, and I walk my dogs there as well. I remember thinking that I wished my dogs poop would go away as fast as their horses!!!
As to people moving in and then wanting the "stinky pig farm" or "noisy race track" that was there first shut down.... well that is a huge pet peeve of rural farmers, and a big part of the reason many won't split off a lot to sell even if they could. We have one parcel of land that could have had a lot severed off it, and a local family wanted us to sell it to them... We would not even consider it, they kept saying we would never cause you any trouble, and while we know they wouldn't... What happens if they have to sell and the new owner hates the sound of our machines at work, or our kids enjoying their ATVs, or the Donkey my friend wants carrying on, or the roosters crowing in the am, and so on..... Or they will behave like guy the farmer next door had to deal with... He was taking his tractor from his farm up the road to ours to work a field for us, he was on a smaller open tractor one that easily fits between the lines, he always moves over as much as he can when he hears a car... This big fancy expensive car came up behind him, at speed, driving it was a well dressed 30ish man who started blowing the horn and tailgating the Tractor, pulled out passed and pulled in in front of him, slammed the brakes on the floored it and took off... Spraying him with gravel while giving him the finger...
It is sad that rural folks hang on to land they could spare, even to other rural people, because of the fear of a vocal few moving to the country and wanting no part of anything that annoys them....
Where I rode a lot was a public trail.It was available for horses and hikers in the spring, summer, and fall and for cross country skiers and any hikers who dared use the trails after the skiers in the winter. No bikes, and recently since unfortunately many dog owners don't get the concept of being considerate around horses, no dogs.
Nobody cleaned up after the horses. Nobody is expected to clean up after the horses. People who don't like it use one the the other bazillion hiker only trails in the area.
Personally, i would love to hike those trails (I know them like the back of my hand), but cannot take the dogs.
For those so pissy about horse poop--ever hike after skiers have been out on a trail? THAT is downright dangerous. perhaps the skiers should have to hike back and smooth all their ruts out afterwards....
Nobody cleaned up after the horses. Nobody is expected to clean up after the horses. People who don't like it use one the the other bazillion hiker only trails in the area.
Personally, i would love to hike those trails (I know them like the back of my hand), but cannot take the dogs.
For those so pissy about horse poop--ever hike after skiers have been out on a trail? THAT is downright dangerous. perhaps the skiers should have to hike back and smooth all their ruts out afterwards....
If it is paved that is likely the reason. When I rode a lot i would avoid paved areas if I could, and there is no way I would take the time to trailer somewhere just to ride on a paved trail. it's hard on the horses' bodies. Heck, one of my dogs is not taken on paved trails ever. We walk along on the side or we find another location.
Yep. I used to be a guide for public trail rides and I'd always tell people that we pick horses that are calm and well suited to the job but they are still HORSES. Things eat them in the wild, therefore their brains are wired differently than dogs or humans.
A funny story to illustrate that point---When I worked at the barn we had a front end loader tractor. It was parked in the same spot every day and we had to least 5 or 6 horses pass it to get to their paddock. Normally this was not an issue--the horses walked by that thing 2-4 times a day, no sweat. Then one day, they were all completely weirded out by it. They would walk by it staring, snorting, stepping lightly away from it, a bit hyped up, etc. Finally, we figured out the reason--the seat (a very small seat) on the tractor had been tipped forward and just that little change completely weirded them all out.:rofl1: The horses suspicious of said tractor included one of our oldest and calmest trail horses...
A funny story to illustrate that point---When I worked at the barn we had a front end loader tractor. It was parked in the same spot every day and we had to least 5 or 6 horses pass it to get to their paddock. Normally this was not an issue--the horses walked by that thing 2-4 times a day, no sweat. Then one day, they were all completely weirded out by it. They would walk by it staring, snorting, stepping lightly away from it, a bit hyped up, etc. Finally, we figured out the reason--the seat (a very small seat) on the tractor had been tipped forward and just that little change completely weirded them all out.:rofl1: The horses suspicious of said tractor included one of our oldest and calmest trail horses...
Ay, as The Bard would say, there's the rub.
On one hand, folks who have experience with horses feel that horse poop is not gross.
On the other hand, lots of folks who haven't been around horses feel that horse poop is.... well, poop. Like dog poop. Or baby poop. Or the stuff that makes that port-a-potty stink.
Unfortunately, while you can tell us over and over and over again that "horse poop is not gross," the end result will probably the same kind of result I got when I used to tell my kids "brussel sprouts are NOT icky, eat them" - the attitude doesn't change until you've actually had some experience with the item.
And no, that doesn't mean I want piles of horse manure left in my front yard by any well-meaning individuals who think I should get some first hand experience with the material.
Have a GREAT day!
Rob
On one hand, folks who have experience with horses feel that horse poop is not gross.
On the other hand, lots of folks who haven't been around horses feel that horse poop is.... well, poop. Like dog poop. Or baby poop. Or the stuff that makes that port-a-potty stink.
Unfortunately, while you can tell us over and over and over again that "horse poop is not gross," the end result will probably the same kind of result I got when I used to tell my kids "brussel sprouts are NOT icky, eat them" - the attitude doesn't change until you've actually had some experience with the item.
And no, that doesn't mean I want piles of horse manure left in my front yard by any well-meaning individuals who think I should get some first hand experience with the material.
Have a GREAT day!
Rob