The preservation of the pure bred dog..
- Thread starter borzoimom
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So true.. that Beagle that one Westminster... I don't think his family tree has ANY hunting in the lines (well maybe if you go WAYYYY back) And the breeder gets touted as having produced the 'best beagle in the country'. How can it be the best beagle if it can't follow its nose? And they get mad if you say its a canine beauty pageant... Not sure why that is a bad thing.
and ?? whats your point??
I might get in trouble for this, but right now, I dont care...
Im sick and tired (and Im not the only one) of your downright nasty attempts to talk **** about Red...
sick of it.. and there is no point to this thread except you wanting attention, and thats all you do.. make things up, and then cry about it...
FOR WHAT ??
I might get in trouble for this, but right now, I dont care...
Im sick and tired (and Im not the only one) of your downright nasty attempts to talk **** about Red...
sick of it.. and there is no point to this thread except you wanting attention, and thats all you do.. make things up, and then cry about it...
FOR WHAT ??
If a puppy mill (in your twisted, idiotic mind) is someone who breeds dogs that are sound, have no health defects and multiple titles? Then yes... 
Though I know you have no personal experience.... breeding show quality, and sound dogs, you can't just look at A and B. There are many different factors.
But of course... you wouldnt know that, now would you?
Though I know you have no personal experience.... breeding show quality, and sound dogs, you can't just look at A and B. There are many different factors.
But of course... you wouldnt know that, now would you?
I'll tip someone off as to who you're talking about? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? You said it yourself in chat. Not only that, but you have called her IRRESPONSIBLE. You have said that her dogs are DEFECTIVE, and that she is [no better than] a PUPPYMILL. You have also directly called her an IDIOT.
I say ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
And again, I will ask - why on earth do you think that I need to 'tip anyone off'? It's already more than apparent who you are talking about and we have proof.
I say ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
And again, I will ask - why on earth do you think that I need to 'tip anyone off'? It's already more than apparent who you are talking about and we have proof.
Now lets see, how long have we been genetically testing dogs??? 20 yrs?? sounds about right. Therefore until they can i.d all those genes, we wont know and have to make an educated decision as to who and what to breed and then cross our fingers. But having said that the testing we do these days is a far cry better than none from years ago.
First, there are NO clean lines you idiot. Anyone that says that is either hiding somethingrofl1 or so very ignorant they need to do some reading on breeding and genetics.
Having said that I am by no means an expert on genes and how they flow down the lines but I at least know there are no clean lines in ANY BREED.
Having said that, I do know breeders that have done a test breeding of suppected carriers and then cull if need be. May not be something that I would do, but they certainly do have the long term in mind and in the end do produce 'CLEANER' lines.
BM, you initals say it all.................BM = BOWEL MOVEMENT OF THE MOUTH AND BRAIN.
Btw, congrats you are the first person that I have called names too but I too am so sick of all this and you.
First, there are NO clean lines you idiot. Anyone that says that is either hiding something
rofl1 or so very ignorant they need to do some reading on breeding and genetics.Having said that I am by no means an expert on genes and how they flow down the lines but I at least know there are no clean lines in ANY BREED.
Having said that, I do know breeders that have done a test breeding of suppected carriers and then cull if need be. May not be something that I would do, but they certainly do have the long term in mind and in the end do produce 'CLEANER' lines.
BM, you initals say it all.................BM = BOWEL MOVEMENT OF THE MOUTH AND BRAIN.
Btw, congrats you are the first person that I have called names too but I too am so sick of all this and you.
I would say that a breeder needs to make an informed decision based on their breed, gene pool depth, how common the ailment is as well as how serious, and the total dog. I really feel confident that the breeders who are sort of kind of in question have thought things through and made a choice that they feel is right.
This has been discussed a lot. Some people agree with specific decisions, some don't. You can hardly call someone who puts that much effort into their dogs as uncaring or lump them with puppymills.
This has been discussed a lot. Some people agree with specific decisions, some don't. You can hardly call someone who puts that much effort into their dogs as uncaring or lump them with puppymills.
R
Hi, there, Borzoimom.
Since this post is directed at me, with regard to my recent breeding, which the puppies are almost 16 mos, I will address it.
I did this breeding for numerous reasons.
The partners complemented each other phenotypically very well.
The sire was linebred on traits I wanted.
The sire displayed in spades traits I am looking for.
I did a lot of research before I did this breeding. The sire of this litter is siring a good percentage of elbow normal dogs. He has a normal sibling, a normal dam, and 2 normal grandparents, each of whom have a normal sibling.
The pedigree of my bitch is showing a steady improvement in elbow status, which has continued nicely into this current litter. 4 puppies as of present have normal preliminary hip AND elbow status on record at the OFA.
The proof will be in the pudding, so to speak, and we will really see how this litter stacks up in the health testing department next year, as they will all be hip, elbow, eye, and heart screened at age 2, and all results will be released and displayed in the OFA data base.
If you have any other questions I would prefer you be direct, and I'll be happy to answer.
Since this post is directed at me, with regard to my recent breeding, which the puppies are almost 16 mos, I will address it.
I did this breeding for numerous reasons.
The partners complemented each other phenotypically very well.
The sire was linebred on traits I wanted.
The sire displayed in spades traits I am looking for.
I did a lot of research before I did this breeding. The sire of this litter is siring a good percentage of elbow normal dogs. He has a normal sibling, a normal dam, and 2 normal grandparents, each of whom have a normal sibling.
The pedigree of my bitch is showing a steady improvement in elbow status, which has continued nicely into this current litter. 4 puppies as of present have normal preliminary hip AND elbow status on record at the OFA.
The proof will be in the pudding, so to speak, and we will really see how this litter stacks up in the health testing department next year, as they will all be hip, elbow, eye, and heart screened at age 2, and all results will be released and displayed in the OFA data base.
If you have any other questions I would prefer you be direct, and I'll be happy to answer.
R
And by all means, anyone who would care to, please visit Penny's OFA record on the OFA website
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1176411#animal
and see how my puppies are stacking up.
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1176411#animal
and see how my puppies are stacking up.
Jumping in last miniute here, but I'm with everyone else who's saying this was a blow below the belt. I stand by my favourite saying: If you've got something to say, say it to the persons face...
Borzoimom, if you've got a problem with someone, you need to say it to their face. I'd think you'd have learnt that by now.
ETA: Red, you're handling this much better than I would have... As for your breeding plans, you know how I feel about your dogs. If I was ever to have a rottie, the dog would come from you.
Borzoimom, if you've got a problem with someone, you need to say it to their face. I'd think you'd have learnt that by now.
ETA: Red, you're handling this much better than I would have... As for your breeding plans, you know how I feel about your dogs. If I was ever to have a rottie, the dog would come from you.
R
well, Criosphinx, the real answer is we don't know.
The elbow data base at OFA was not opened until 1990. It was 10 years or so before I would say it was used frequently by people, altho the litter I bred in 96 was from elbow normal parents. Some were doing elbows at that time, but not like now.
Now it would be considered an "industry standard" in Rottweilers, for lack of a better term. I would never use any dog for breeding that had an unknown elbow status.
At this time in Rottweilers, the rate of ED (mainly DJD Gr 1) is so high in Rottweilers that we cannot reasonably eliminate sound dogs who are DJD Gr 1 that we would use for breeding otherwise. The rate of ED in the Rottweiler across the board at this time is 40.1 percent, with 30.5 percent being DJD Gr 1.
The expected rate of ED when breeding together 2 positive individuals is 41.5%. I chose to use individuals who between them have 2 normal elbows and 2 abnormal elbows on opposite sides.
I would expect the reasonable statistical outcome of this breeding to end up the same as breeding affected to normal: 26.1% - 31.3%
Obviously this is clearly below the current statistical average of ED+ Rottweilers submitted to the OFA. I believe this litter will come in well under that average. I felt, after all the research I did prior to this breeding, both into the pedigrees of the parents, and into the inheritance of ED, that it would come in well under these percentages.
Preliminary screenings appear to bear this out at this time.
Anytime one undertakes the selective breeding of purebred animals, one assumes a risk and the huge responsibility of causing life to be created. We can't be too careful in our efforts to both produce the best possible specimens, and also the healthiest ones.
That certainly was my own personal goal in this litter. To date 4 puppies have had hips and elbows screened, and all 4 were normal. There is one Canadian CH, 2 pointed towards AKC CH titles, one UKC CH, with much MUCH more to come. I am VERY satisfied and in fact delighted with how this litter is turning out, in every respect.
The elbow data base at OFA was not opened until 1990. It was 10 years or so before I would say it was used frequently by people, altho the litter I bred in 96 was from elbow normal parents. Some were doing elbows at that time, but not like now.
Now it would be considered an "industry standard" in Rottweilers, for lack of a better term. I would never use any dog for breeding that had an unknown elbow status.
At this time in Rottweilers, the rate of ED (mainly DJD Gr 1) is so high in Rottweilers that we cannot reasonably eliminate sound dogs who are DJD Gr 1 that we would use for breeding otherwise. The rate of ED in the Rottweiler across the board at this time is 40.1 percent, with 30.5 percent being DJD Gr 1.
The expected rate of ED when breeding together 2 positive individuals is 41.5%. I chose to use individuals who between them have 2 normal elbows and 2 abnormal elbows on opposite sides.
I would expect the reasonable statistical outcome of this breeding to end up the same as breeding affected to normal: 26.1% - 31.3%
Obviously this is clearly below the current statistical average of ED+ Rottweilers submitted to the OFA. I believe this litter will come in well under that average. I felt, after all the research I did prior to this breeding, both into the pedigrees of the parents, and into the inheritance of ED, that it would come in well under these percentages.
Preliminary screenings appear to bear this out at this time.
Anytime one undertakes the selective breeding of purebred animals, one assumes a risk and the huge responsibility of causing life to be created. We can't be too careful in our efforts to both produce the best possible specimens, and also the healthiest ones.
That certainly was my own personal goal in this litter. To date 4 puppies have had hips and elbows screened, and all 4 were normal. There is one Canadian CH, 2 pointed towards AKC CH titles, one UKC CH, with much MUCH more to come. I am VERY satisfied and in fact delighted with how this litter is turning out, in every respect.
Red, kudos to you for being so cool and collected. You sure are more so than I would be. I don't take to two-faced, cowardly, passive aggressive comments kindly.
ETA: BM, cut the crap. I've been ready to snap for a while now but I've held my tongue. If you have a problem with Red's breeding, don't whisper about it like a 5th grader in the chat room, then start a thread about it stating the exact case but without even naming her. Grow the hell up and PM her, ask about it yourself. Red is real, she's open about her reasoning, backs up her claims with documented proof, and is honest. That's a hell of a lot more than I can say for you, Ms.-I've-gotten-17-OTCHs-but-I'm-in-a-protection-program-and-my-identity-is-secret-so-I-can't show-or-tell-you-to-back-it-up-but-hey-here's-my-picture-and-my-phone-number.
ETA: BM, cut the crap. I've been ready to snap for a while now but I've held my tongue. If you have a problem with Red's breeding, don't whisper about it like a 5th grader in the chat room, then start a thread about it stating the exact case but without even naming her. Grow the hell up and PM her, ask about it yourself. Red is real, she's open about her reasoning, backs up her claims with documented proof, and is honest. That's a hell of a lot more than I can say for you, Ms.-I've-gotten-17-OTCHs-but-I'm-in-a-protection-program-and-my-identity-is-secret-so-I-can't show-or-tell-you-to-back-it-up-but-hey-here's-my-picture-and-my-phone-number.
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I started reading this thread with a large sigh of *draaaama*, but in the end I learned a thing or two about health testing in rottweilers!
Thanks for the information, Red, and adding to the kudos of your professionalism. I always like learning about various attributes, both good and bad, of various breeds.
Thanks for the information, Red, and adding to the kudos of your professionalism. I always like learning about various attributes, both good and bad, of various breeds.
Red-
I don't post here much - okay hardly ever! I have enough drama with the boards associated with my breed! I do however enjoy your posts immensly and always manage to learn something, I too feel that if I am ever in the market for a Rot you would be my first call.
That said, this type of hurtful drivel is the reason I retired from pure-bred dogs many years ago but reading your adult responses to the many digs directed at you make it possible for me to believe that there still are sane folk within the world of pure-bred dogs.
Bev Hale
Sunridge Bulldogges
Taft, CA
I don't post here much - okay hardly ever! I have enough drama with the boards associated with my breed! I do however enjoy your posts immensly and always manage to learn something, I too feel that if I am ever in the market for a Rot you would be my first call.
That said, this type of hurtful drivel is the reason I retired from pure-bred dogs many years ago but reading your adult responses to the many digs directed at you make it possible for me to believe that there still are sane folk within the world of pure-bred dogs.
Bev Hale
Sunridge Bulldogges
Taft, CA
That I agree as well. Without any hunting titles, it does raise an eyebrown doesnt it.
As far as genetic disorders, the only to properly find out if it passes is not just to check the following breeding dogs, but the entire litter- whether the will be bred or not. Its the only way to actually know if it carried or not in the litter. With degenerative diseases it makes it even harder. One of the problems for example in the Cavalier with the degenerative heart condition is that many times it doesn't show up until later in life- even if screened for it at age 2,3,4 for example. Not being present if the dog is bred, but later at about age 8 for example it shows up, meanwhile the litter produced can be potentially have it as well.
Thyroid is a huge problem in most sighthounds. This isn't tested once- its tested over and over. And usually not just prior to breeding, but for the health of the dog. I had heard about thyroid problems in sighthounds for years, but having Femka it sure became an eye opener. A friend of mine that also has Borzois has her dogs tested yearly. Never had it shown up before in the full panel test. As the routine prior to a breeding, she had this one dog retested early due to the breeding coming. To her shock the dog, although prior tests were good, the dog came up low thyroid on the that panel. There was no reason to suspect the thyroid condition was present prior. ( obviously the dog was not bred.)
Another condition that is in this breed is low reproduction rates. However- these breeders keep trying to breed finally getting a litter. I disagree with that as well. Not conceiving one time is one thing ( anything can happen) but twice would be the charm to me as a tip off whatever the reason ( be it a sex link gene etc) but should not be passed on. Even the club says if we do not stop trying to breed the dogs that have problems conceiving, although eventually we get that one litter, what good is it=- they are not even sure how this is passed. To me this is no different than a female that is not a easy whelper trying again except that the risk to the mother and pups.
I have known people over my life that although their breeding 'stock' may be clear on these different conditions relavant to their breed, they do not check litter mates of these dogs. I have not bred to say certain dogs due to finding out a litter mate of that dog has certain conditions.. Its genetics- "its prego- its in there..". Or at least - potentially in the genes. And in the world of over population, the question should be " why SHOULD one breed" and NOT " oh sure- why not...".
Over the years I have watched the shepherd deteriorate. And I am resonably sure one of the causes is that far too many times, even for those that test their breeding stock ( which is at least an attempt to help) but alot only testing breeding stock and not the whole litter. Some breeders I know even their pet puppies are required by contract, to have certain tests done. If nothing else the only determination as to whether or not for that breeding, the genes continued as good.
A point a friend said recently was " how can a dog get a championship prior to the age of 2? They should not be able too. Champion at that age, titled or not, still doesn't prove the dog is 'sound". Yes while some conditions the problem conditions can be evident in their gate, but I also know that like with HD even a mild case the dog can still have proper movement. ( or at least for a while). In some club registries a dog can not even get a championship until a certain age. However in the AKC once a champion if you have a breeder that says " oh well its a champion lets breed the dog", that isn't going to help matters.
I had great plans for Hottie. He was just beautiful! You would look at him and go " wow- what a dog!".. However- his injury that occured at 4 months old, not treated properly, causing his condition left one big open question with no answers.. "Did his injury occur due to an true accident, or was there a genetic weakness that caused the accident?" Hottie was never bred, and looking at how he was in old age, I am thankful for that decission.
I have met breeders that do not get a hip x-ray on one leg due to an accident. " Oh the one hip is fine, so the other is too had it not been for that accident..".. Well- how do you truely know that? And my whole point is when in doubt- ANY doubt- do not breed. There are plenty more that would be better candidates to breed. And that includes my beloved Hottie- as I look around the house with nothing left of him anymore. And still, although I still miss him terribly, I do find good thoughts even without having " his son".
**/edit sentence- Good Lord I wrote a book...
As far as genetic disorders, the only to properly find out if it passes is not just to check the following breeding dogs, but the entire litter- whether the will be bred or not. Its the only way to actually know if it carried or not in the litter. With degenerative diseases it makes it even harder. One of the problems for example in the Cavalier with the degenerative heart condition is that many times it doesn't show up until later in life- even if screened for it at age 2,3,4 for example. Not being present if the dog is bred, but later at about age 8 for example it shows up, meanwhile the litter produced can be potentially have it as well.
Thyroid is a huge problem in most sighthounds. This isn't tested once- its tested over and over. And usually not just prior to breeding, but for the health of the dog. I had heard about thyroid problems in sighthounds for years, but having Femka it sure became an eye opener. A friend of mine that also has Borzois has her dogs tested yearly. Never had it shown up before in the full panel test. As the routine prior to a breeding, she had this one dog retested early due to the breeding coming. To her shock the dog, although prior tests were good, the dog came up low thyroid on the that panel. There was no reason to suspect the thyroid condition was present prior. ( obviously the dog was not bred.)
Another condition that is in this breed is low reproduction rates. However- these breeders keep trying to breed finally getting a litter. I disagree with that as well. Not conceiving one time is one thing ( anything can happen) but twice would be the charm to me as a tip off whatever the reason ( be it a sex link gene etc) but should not be passed on. Even the club says if we do not stop trying to breed the dogs that have problems conceiving, although eventually we get that one litter, what good is it=- they are not even sure how this is passed. To me this is no different than a female that is not a easy whelper trying again except that the risk to the mother and pups.
I have known people over my life that although their breeding 'stock' may be clear on these different conditions relavant to their breed, they do not check litter mates of these dogs. I have not bred to say certain dogs due to finding out a litter mate of that dog has certain conditions.. Its genetics- "its prego- its in there..". Or at least - potentially in the genes. And in the world of over population, the question should be " why SHOULD one breed" and NOT " oh sure- why not...".
Over the years I have watched the shepherd deteriorate. And I am resonably sure one of the causes is that far too many times, even for those that test their breeding stock ( which is at least an attempt to help) but alot only testing breeding stock and not the whole litter. Some breeders I know even their pet puppies are required by contract, to have certain tests done. If nothing else the only determination as to whether or not for that breeding, the genes continued as good.
A point a friend said recently was " how can a dog get a championship prior to the age of 2? They should not be able too. Champion at that age, titled or not, still doesn't prove the dog is 'sound". Yes while some conditions the problem conditions can be evident in their gate, but I also know that like with HD even a mild case the dog can still have proper movement. ( or at least for a while). In some club registries a dog can not even get a championship until a certain age. However in the AKC once a champion if you have a breeder that says " oh well its a champion lets breed the dog", that isn't going to help matters.
I had great plans for Hottie. He was just beautiful! You would look at him and go " wow- what a dog!".. However- his injury that occured at 4 months old, not treated properly, causing his condition left one big open question with no answers.. "Did his injury occur due to an true accident, or was there a genetic weakness that caused the accident?" Hottie was never bred, and looking at how he was in old age, I am thankful for that decission.
I have met breeders that do not get a hip x-ray on one leg due to an accident. " Oh the one hip is fine, so the other is too had it not been for that accident..".. Well- how do you truely know that? And my whole point is when in doubt- ANY doubt- do not breed. There are plenty more that would be better candidates to breed. And that includes my beloved Hottie- as I look around the house with nothing left of him anymore. And still, although I still miss him terribly, I do find good thoughts even without having " his son".
**/edit sentence- Good Lord I wrote a book...
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