The "pit bulls and bite work" debate.

[Squishy22]

So, I'm a member of a pit bull forum. It surprises me that most over there are pro-bite work sports for APBTs. Whats your take on it?

I'm against it. For the simple fact that I think it will project the breed into a negative light. A breed that is already fighting BSL.

The argument is that training a dog in bite work will create the dog to have a solid temperament and nerves of steel. Thus making the dog more mentally stable than a dog who was not trained. This goes for pit bulls as well as any other breed.

I understand that and I am sure it is true, but it still does not sit with me well to have a breed that was bred to NEVER put its mouth on a human in an aggressive manner, to then be trained to do so. Going against what the breed is all about. I dont care how well trained the dog is or how stable it will make the dog. Thats isnt the problem, the problem is that you are putting out the wrong message to society, and the massage says that its ok for pit bulls to bite. Its ok for a pit bull to cause harm to a human. Thats the last thing the breeds needs. Adding more fire to the flame.

There are many other breeds that are excellent for bite work. I dont see the purpose to adding the pit bull into this. I really dont.

 

[cvcraven]

I feel silly for asking.. What's bite work?

 

[elegy]

but they're not putting teeth on a human in an aggressive manner. they're putting teeth on a bite sleeve or a bite suit. it's not the same thing. it's a game, a sport.

i think bullies need to be trained differently in bite sports than a traditional guardian breed (prey drive instead of defensive drive), but i think it can be a great outlet for them and a lot of fun.

most people in the general public aren't even aware that schutzhund (and other bite sports) exists, so i don't think allowing pit bulls to participate is much of a detriment to their reputation.

 

[Barb04]

I met several pitties at the first event I attended showing protection work. I had the opportunity to meet them closeup and received so many kisses and wagging tails. There was also a doberman that I wouldn't think of going up to but the owner said it was okay, and he was so gentle. Dogs, when trained properly to do bite work, are taught what and when to take action. I'm very impressed with dogs I've seen and met on and off the training field.

 

[puppydog]

Well, if they are banned from bite work would that not be discrimination?

 

[corgipower]

The argument is that training a dog in bite work will create the dog to have a solid temperament and nerves of steel. Thus making the dog more mentally stable than a dog who was not trained. This goes for pit bulls as well as any other breed.

Well, except that bite work doesn't do some sort of magical temperament fix. The dog should have a solid temperament and strong nerves prior to starting bite work. The bite work builds on that, increasing his confidence. A dog who is unstable to begin with has no business doing bite work.

I understand that and I am sure it is true, but it still does not sit with me well to have a breed that was bred to NEVER put its mouth on a human in an aggressive manner, to then be trained to do so. Going against what the breed is all about. I dont care how well trained the dog is or how stable it will make the dog. Thats isnt the problem, the problem is that you are putting out the wrong message to society, and the massage says that its ok for pit bulls to bite. Its ok for a pit bull to cause harm to a human. Thats the last thing the breeds needs. Adding more fire to the flame.

No dog of any breed should put his mouth on a human in an aggressive manner. Bite work isn't about aggression, it's about using the dogs drives (prey, play, defense) and teaching the dog how to use those drives. Many dogs will naturally want to protect their owner. Most of those dogs don't have the tools in their tool box to be able to effectively protect their owner. The bite work training teaches both the dog and the owner how to handle themselves in such situations.

My trainer put it very well when he said that all dogs know how to bite. They are born knowing how to bite, and they are biting every time they pick up a ball or a bone or a stick. Protection training teaches the dog how to control his bite.

A pit bull doing protection work is no different from any other breed doing protection work. The dog doesn't learn that it's OK to harm a human. The dog and his owner learn how to protect and defend themselves.

There are many other breeds that are excellent for bite work. I dont see the purpose to adding the pit bull into this. I really dont

.

Why would it be OK for a GSD or a rott or a mal to bite someone but not a pit bull?? Excluding a breed from a training discipline or a sport is a form of BSL.

 

[SisMorphine]

Though I don't own a pit bull, my two Alapaha Bulldogs do bitework and are mistaken for pit bulls on a daily basis (because obviously people have no clue what an APBT actually is). I have worked with many pit bulls in bitework in the past (though none currently at our club, yet). And yes, working a bully breed is a bit different from working a herding breed. But the truth is, ALL of the dogs that we work at our group can be loved on immediately before and after bitework. We have children around all the time without fear of them getting hurt by any of the dogs.

So to me the way to combat the fact that ANY dog could get a bad image from doing bitework, is to show that dog being social also. Earn therapy dog titles, do therapy work! To me the best part about bitework is to show that you have well rounded dog!

We had our no dogs week one class last night. My dogs usually attend that class and are used as demos and examples of perfect dominant and submissive doggy behaviors (yes, that was a brag). Teeny ran around the room the whole time, playing with her toys, being social with everyone, demanding butt scritches like her normal pushy self, and near the end my boss informed the group that Teeny is being trained in personal protection. You should have seen it. Every person in that room froze for a second . . . then relaxed again. It was perfect because they had just loved on this dog for an hour before finding out what she is being trained for, and they realized that hey, it's not so bad, this dog isn't vicious she's an idiot to tripped over her toy and landed on her head just minutes before.

So yeah, to me using pit bulls in bitework is a o k provided that you also show that the dog is social and well rounded.

 

[Gempress]

I personally think it's fine. If a dog has the drive and ability to do something, why not go with it? And I don't see how a well-trained pit bull is going to be a negative ambassador for the breed. Sadly, if you have a pit bull, people are going to look at your dog and form snap judgements regardless of how your dog is trained.

but it still does not sit with me well to have a breed that was bred to NEVER put its mouth on a human in an aggressive manner, to then be trained to do so.

I have an old Schutzhund training handbook (old, as in probably 30 years old) that I found at a used book sale. By reading that book, it's amazing to see how many things have changed over time. For example....get this....in the breed section, the author touts LABS as good Schutz prospects. No joke. He said a good lab is "drivey" enough and extremely responsive to his/her handler, which makes for good training. The section included old photos of labs doing bitework and agitation.

If a lab can be good at Schutzhund, why not other breeds?

 

[SisMorphine]

I understand that and I am sure it is true, but it still does not sit with me well to have a breed that was bred to NEVER put its mouth on a human in an aggressive manner, to then be trained to do so.

Actually APBTs were bred to not redirect on their handlers so that they could be in the pit while the fight was going on and not worry about getting hurt. That is far different from NEVER putting their mouth on a human.

 

[ACooper]

I met several pitties at the first event I attended showing protection work. I had the opportunity to meet them closeup and received so many kisses and wagging tails. There was also a doberman that I wouldn't think of going up to but the owner said it was okay, and he was so gentle. Dogs, when trained properly to do bite work, are taught what and when to take action. I'm very impressed with dogs I've seen and met on and off the training field.

I must agree with you Barb. A dog that is trained in the hows/whens/whys, normally has a better idea of what is acceptable, what is expected, and how to use 'self control' in situations.

They have the ability and the power........they just need instruction of what to do with it and when.

 

[puppydog]

I found that when I was training Man Work that most of the dogs were alot more relaxed and confident after they had been trained. They had direction for thier drive and enjoyed doing it well.

 

[release the hounds]

I"ve seen more than a few pit bulls trained in various bite sports. Almost all were very nice dogs. I have no problem with it, except I personally won't do it because of the image.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

My personal opinion is that APBTs should never in any way be encouraged or trained to show aggression to a human.

My opinion is that when one takes such a breed, with its innate gameness and fighting drive, and flips the trigger from another dog to a human being, you are asking for big trouble.

This should be a breed that is non aggressive towards human beings in all situations.

JMO as always.

 

[bubbatd]

^^^ We agree there , Red !

 

[Irridescent]

I don't really have a problem when others do it since I can't stop people from participating in it, but I would never do it. I just can't make myself do something with a breed that they were bred for generations not to do, it doesn't matter wheather the person is wearing a bite suit or whatever, or that it's controlled. If I ever get into protection training, I will get a dobe or malinois, but that is just me.

 

[Renee750il]

I"ve seen more than a few pit bulls trained in various bite sports. Almost all were very nice dogs. I have no problem with it, except I personally won't do it because of the image.

I think this was Reggin's point, more than whether or not the dogs are capable and suited for it.

It's one of those things that is a hard call, because we know that structured bitework DOES take a stable, well trained dog to start with and DOES allow them to be even more controlled and confident, there's that general public out there - the ones that won't listen to reason and are clamoring for BSL to protect them from these evil, man-woman-child-and-elderly eating dogs, who not only have ZERO understanding of this, but don't WANT to understand anything that might make them have to change their ignorant minds.

 

[corgipower]

It's one of those things that is a hard call, because we know that structured bitework DOES take a stable, well trained dog to start with and DOES allow them to be even more controlled and confident, there's that general public out there - the ones that won't listen to reason and are clamoring for BSL to protect them from these evil, man-woman-child-and-elderly eating dogs, who not only have ZERO understanding of this, but don't WANT to understand anything that might make them have to change their ignorant minds.

Yea, but by not doing bite work - either pp or sport - because there's John Q Public who might misunderstand, we're allowing them - the same mentality that supports BSL - to determine what we can and cannot do with our dogs.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Breeds like the APBT, which has been selectively bred for many years to NEVER give up the fight, NEVER release the grip, to pay NO attention to pain or injury, to ALWAYS go back in for the fight,

IMO

should NEVER EVER *****EVER***** be used or bred for ANY purpose that reduces or eliminates their bite inhibition towards human beings.

The sweetness and complete absence of ANY aggression towards human beings is a basic tenet of the APBT.

IMO the movement away from selecting for breeding dogs that would NEVER bite a human is a large reason for the huge problem today with this breed.

JMO again.......

 

[Gempress]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if your pit bull has an obedience title, Canine Good Citizen recognition, and the Congressional Medal of Honor. John Q public will still look at your dog and say "Oh my gawd! It's a horrible pit bull!" That just seems to be the way things work. So might as well go ahead and do whatever bite sports you want--it won't change what people think about your dog.

To change the pit bull image, the best thing to do would have Disney make a cute, unrealistic movie featuring Pit Bulls. Something akin to the upcoming "Beverly Hills Chihuahua" flick. People believe movies. Not the breed's titles and other achievements.

Sad, isn't it?

 

[ACooper]

Yea, but by not doing bite work - either pp or sport - because there's John Q Public who might misunderstand, we're allowing them - the same mentality that supports BSL - to determine what we can and cannot do with our dogs.

Exactly! There was a time not too long ago that other breeds were being harassed the same as pit bulls are now. They still are to a degree, it's just in the background. You can't lie back and let them determine what you can or cannot do with your animal..........YOU must show them what a well trained, well cared for, responsibly owned dog can do!

The biggest problem here in our town is the irresponsible people that end up with these dogs. Not just pit bulls, but at the moment that is the most noticed. The public must be shown and made to actually SEE what a good dog owner can accomplish with these dogs.........and that doesn't necessarily mean bite work, but just well trained dogs in general instead of the image most often seen around here.