The "pit bulls and bite work" debate.

[release the hounds]

I think this was Reggin's point, more than whether or not the dogs are capable and suited for it.

It's one of those things that is a hard call, because we know that structured bitework DOES take a stable, well trained dog to start with and DOES allow them to be even more controlled and confident, there's that general public out there - the ones that won't listen to reason and are clamoring for BSL to protect them from these evil, man-woman-child-and-elderly eating dogs, who not only have ZERO understanding of this, but don't WANT to understand anything that might make them have to change their ignorant minds.

Yeah, I'm chicken poo I really like pit bulls. I think if people want to do bite work they should, assuming they have a dog with good temperment and good intentions. I'm just too much of a wuss to do it.

Having bite trained dogs is one thing and opens up a whole range of liability compared to normal pet owners. Having one that has the public peception of a pit bull is a whole other level beyond that.

If something were to ever happen I don't think I would want to deal with the perception people have, which is why I own other more "respected" breeds. I think I have a lot more fight to defend other people in that regard than myself.

someday I might be able to undo the "pussification of the American male" (I had to throw in a tribute to George Carlin) that has happened to me, and actually take on a pit bull and showcase their talents for myself.

 

[corgipower]

should NEVER EVER *****EVER***** be used or bred for ANY purpose that reduces or eliminates their bite inhibition towards human beings.

Protection training doesn't reduce or eliminate bite inhibition. A dog that does well in pp and will actually bite a person will do so with or without the training. The protection training in fact increases bite inhibition as it teaches the dog that there is a time and a place to bite and a time and a place to not bite.

Much of the training is control work - obedience. If the dog doesn't listen to the owner, if the dog doesn't release, if the dog doesn't sit and stay when told to, the dog isn't allowed to bite. I would rather have a dog who is trained to bite, trained to release, trained to sit and not bite than a dog who simply acts on instinct and attempts to protect his owner in a manner that either gets the dog injured or responds to a perceived threat inappropriately while neither the owner nor the dog have the skills available to stop or prevent the bite.

Sport training targets the dog to a sleeve or a bite suit, which in the dog's view is a huge tug toy. Just because a dog will bite a sleeve doesn't mean he'll bit a human who isn't wearing one.

The sweetness and complete absence of ANY aggression towards human beings is a basic tenet of the APBT.

Protection is not aggression.

GSDs, mals, rotts, dobes are also all very sweet breeds who should not display aggression towards humans. If they do display aggression towards humans, they don't make good candidates for protection training. Training them in protection is utilizing their drives.

A dog can be sweet and non-aggressive and still retain a dog's natural instinct to protect himself and his owner. Prey drive and defense drive and fight drive need to be channeled in very goal-specific directions in training a dog for protection. Dogs trained in protection are easily approached by friendly strangers, petted, handled. In fact, part of the training for protection involves ensuring that a friendly stranger can approach the dog.

IMO the movement away from selecting for breeding dogs that would NEVER bite a human is a large reason for the huge problem today with this breed.

Well, that could be said for every breed. I've seen goldens and labs who fit that statement. But the problem is with breeders who are irresponsible - they see a breed that sells quickly and they breed anything and everything as well as with irresponsible owners who don't socialize or train or confine their dog. Add to that media who have sold out to politics and a public who feeds on mass hysteria.

 

[corgipower]

Exactly! There was a time not too long ago that other breeds were being harassed the same as pit bulls are now. They still are to a degree, it's just in the background. You can't lie back and let them determine what you can or cannot do with your animal..........YOU must show them what a well trained, well cared for, responsibly owned dog can do!

The biggest problem here in our town is the irresponsible people that end up with these dogs. Not just pit bulls, but at the moment that is the most noticed. The public must be shown and made to actually SEE what a good dog owner can accomplish with these dogs.........and that doesn't necessarily mean bite work, but just well trained dogs in general instead of the image most often seen around here.

^:hail:^

 

[DanL]

How does having a bite trained dog open up any more liability than someone with a nerve bag, scared, bite anything dog? My dog is bite trained and has a CGC. He's much less of a liability than a fear biter dog who attacks and bites someone all over the place. When my dog bites you he bites you once, and he holds on until I tell him to let go. Maybe he breaks your wrist or forearm, but you are not mauled.

The best thing to do if you train bite work is to keep detailed training records. Date, time, what activities were trained, how the dog performed. If he acted aggressively towards bystanders or other dogs who were in the vicinity. Show a track record of your dog performing as asked, show records where you train on issues that he has had problems with. Then when you get sued and go to court by the guy who broke into your house and got bit by your dog, you can prove that your dog is not out of control and aggressive, and that he bit because there was an imminent threat towards you.

As far as pits or other bull breeds doing bite work, I can take it or leave it. At the club I was going to I saw several American Bulldogs and APBTs come down for evaluation and not one of them was accepted for a membership. That's not saying there aren't dogs of those breeds who can have success doing bite work, but it's not many of them. You are asking the dog to go against its genetic makeup to have it bite people, so they will only go so far. Like Corgi said, a bite sleeve is like a tug for a dog. Dogs being trained in bite work are given a tug first, then they work up to a wedge shaped tug that is more like a bite sleeve, then the sleeve, and then the bite suit. There are Sch3 dogs out there that won't take on a decoy in a bite suit because they have never seen it, they are trained on the sleeve and that's all they knew. Not saying they wouldn't adapt to the suit, but it isn't something that happens on day 1 for many dogs.

 

[release the hounds]

of course it opens you up to more liability, same as owning a pit bull leaves you open to more scrutiny. People pass off the headcase min pin that tears every guests pant legs , but get scared crapless by a pit bull that barks and kids teasing it behind a fence.

have your dog jump up on someone and scratch them, then have those people find out you have "bite trained" that dog, see how the people involved treat you then.

Lots of PP trainers don't even call it PP training, they call it "aggression managment" because of liability reasons. Most Insurance companies will NOT insure you if you have a dog that has had bite training. and if it didn't open you up to more liability why would you need to keep detailed records of what you do?

I'm not saying it's right, or that half the nerve bags on the street aren't more dangerous, but it is more responsibility, and if something goes wrong, people will hold you more liable, right or wrong.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Protection training doesn't reduce or eliminate bite inhibition. A dog that does well in pp and will actually bite a person will do so with or without the training. The protection training in fact increases bite inhibition as it teaches the dog that there is a time and a place to bite and a time and a place to not bite.

I would have to disagree here, CP.

PP and/or bite work training teaches a dog to fight and agress fearlessly against a human opponent. Dogs are worked to grip fast and hard, and to stand up to any threat.

I have personal experience training dogs for this sort of thing. No, it did not cause my dogs to be more aggressive, nor did it change their level of bite inhibition towards friendly people.

The DIFFERENCE between Rottweilers, GSDs, Dobes, the Belgian Shepherds, etc is that these dogs have not been bred and selected for limitless gameness and blind fight drive towards other dogs like APBTs have.

THIS is the difference.

Much of the training is control work - obedience. If the dog doesn't listen to the owner, if the dog doesn't release, if the dog doesn't sit and stay when told to, the dog isn't allowed to bite. I would rather have a dog who is trained to bite, trained to release, trained to sit and not bite than a dog who simply acts on instinct and attempts to protect his owner in a manner that either gets the dog injured or responds to a perceived threat inappropriately while neither the owner nor the dog have the skills available to stop or prevent the bite.

Control in bite work comes after the bite is set and dogs have been developed to have strong interest and drive in the work.

Control at the beginning of bite work will inhibit drive in most dogs.

Yes, bite work involves training, control, and a release command. This comes at the END, after dogs have been carefully shaped to grip and hold.

Sport training targets the dog to a sleeve or a bite suit, which in the dog's view is a huge tug toy. Just because a dog will bite a sleeve doesn't mean he'll bit a human who isn't wearing one.

Having personal experience with this as well, I can tell you my dogs would not care if you or anyone else was wearing a bite suit or not if you presented a threat.

Protection is not aggression.

What is it then?

GSDs, mals, rotts, dobes are also all very sweet breeds who should not display aggression towards humans. If they do display aggression towards humans, they don't make good candidates for protection training. Training them in protection is utilizing their drives.

STRONGLY DISAGREE.

From the Rottweiler breed standard:

Temperament
The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

The behavior of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be controlled, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles, etc. An aloof or reserved dog should not be penalized, as this reflects the accepted character of the breed. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

DOBERMAN PINSCHER:

Temperament
Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring.

BELGIAN MALINOIS

Temperament
Correct temperament is essential to the working character of the Belgian Malinois. The breed is confident, exhibiting neither shyness nor aggressiveness in new situations. The dog may be reserved with strangers but is affectionate with his own people. He is naturally protective of his owner's person and property without being overly aggressive. The Belgian Malinois possesses a strong desire to work and is quick and responsive to commands from his owner. Faulty temperament is strongly penalized.

The breeds you mention are generally aloof with those they do not know, and have strong territorial and guarding instincts on their own property.

If not properly raised and socialized, dominance issues can be a problem in any of these breeds.

A dog can be sweet and non-aggressive and still retain a dog's natural instinct to protect himself and his owner. Prey drive and defense drive and fight drive need to be channeled in very goal-specific directions in training a dog for protection. Dogs trained in protection are easily approached by friendly strangers, petted, handled. In fact, part of the training for protection involves ensuring that a friendly stranger can approach the dog.

Can you help me with where in any sport dog venue it is required for the dog to allow touching by any stranger?

I can tell you from my years of experience in Rottweilers, if I am not present, it does not make any difference if you are friendly or not, you will be warned what will happen if you continue to approach, and they are not kidding. In the yard, in the van, if I am not around, you will not be welcomed.

These same dogs are yes, QUITE friendly when on my leash in public, and welcome touching from any friendly stranger. But ONLY if I am present.

An finally, I have to strongly AGREE with your last paragraph here.

Well, that could be said for every breed. I've seen goldens and labs who fit that statement. But the problem is with breeders who are irresponsible - they see a breed that sells quickly and they breed anything and everything as well as with irresponsible owners who don't socialize or train or confine their dog. Add to that media who have sold out to politics and a public who feeds on mass hysteria.

 

[Zoom]

Perhaps I'm simplifying things too much, but as far as teaching a dog to see a sleeve as a toy and playing with them with a flirt pole...the dogs that get the flirt pole don't hold on for hours upon hours. They "out" on command and go again. It's utilizing a drive and I think going on a sleeve would do much of the same.

Then again, I fully state my ignorance as far as PP, etc. goes.

 

[release the hounds]

The DIFFERENCE between Rottweilers, GSDs, Dobes, the Belgian Shepherds, etc is that these dogs have not been bred and selected for limitless gameness and blind fight drive towards other dogs like APBTs have.

I would have to agree here. Most of the breds mentioned can switch between aggression, play, social, protective etc quite easily. In fact we do drive switching all the time in training.

It's easy to see the difference between breeds. There is even room for error in the training with these breeds most times as well when dealing with protection and aggression.

The pit bulls i've seen have been very well trained in ob and protection, and if they've done real aggression training, it's hard to shut that off. I can take any dog in our club or others that I know, GSD mal, etc, and work it up to a frenzy, the handler can cap that drive (down, sit, heel, etc) I become non threatening and can come in and pet the dog.

Most of the pit bulls can't turn off like that, and once it on, it's on. The ones i've liked have been trained by very good people (or maybe they were just lucky) but they walk that fine line and don't ever push the dogs into full on aggression.

Control in bite work comes after the bite is set and dogs have been developed to have strong interest and drive in the work.

Control at the beginning of bite work will inhibit drive in most dogs.

very true

 

[perla123]

I think that showing people that you can teach this type of obedience to an APT is a good thing. I think people out there should see that these dogs are not just out there attacking people and their pets, and that they could actualy be trained to different sports. And do a sport like this one and still be a good family dog.

 

[Squishy22]

Well, if they are banned from bite work would that not be discrimination?

Oh no. Thats not what I meant at all. Dont get me wrong, I believe in owners rights to do what they want with their dogs, aside from dog fighting/abuse. Any owner has the right to get into any sport, regardless of breed.

I hope my original post makes sense, guys. It was way late and I was pretty tired, so my mind might have been a little foggy. I want to add that I do not know a whole lot a bout bitework/schutzhund. If bite work is simply a sport where a dog bites a sleeve as a game (playing), much like a dog playing tug of war or something, then thats a different story. I am referring to bite work as in training a dog to do protection work, where the dog is trained to attack and take down a person if need be, in REAL situations. The two are way different. One is a game/playing and one is not.

 

[corgipower]

I would have to disagree here, CP.

should NEVER EVER *****EVER***** be used or bred for ANY purpose that reduces or eliminates their bite inhibition towards human beings.

Protection training doesn't reduce or eliminate bite inhibition. A dog that does well in pp and will actually bite a person will do so with or without the training. The protection training in fact increases bite inhibition as it teaches the dog that there is a time and a place to bite and a time and a place to not bite.
PP and/or bite work training teaches a dog to fight and agress fearlessly against a human opponent. Dogs are worked to grip fast and hard, and to stand up to any threat.

I have personal experience training dogs for this sort of thing. No, it did not cause my dogs to be more aggressive, nor did it change their level of bite inhibition towards friendly people.

Well, first you say that bite work reduces or eliminates their bite inhibition, then you say it didn't change their bite inhibition.

Teaching a dog to release on command, teaching a dog to sit and not bite, teaching a dog to bark and hold and not bite all are things that do in fact put control on the biting and serve to instill bite inhibition. The bite itself may be uninhibited, but the dog learns that he can't bite simply because he feels like it.

Control in bite work comes after the bite is set and dogs have been developed to have strong interest and drive in the work.

Control at the beginning of bite work will inhibit drive in most dogs.

Yes, bite work involves training, control, and a release command. This comes at the END, after dogs have been carefully shaped to grip and hold.

Having a young, novice dog sit or heel and not bite actually serves to increase drive and is an exercise done often. Allowing a dog's drive to go uncontrolled will wear him out and will reduce his drive.

Having personal experience with this as well, I can tell you my dogs would not care if you or anyone else was wearing a bite suit or not if you presented a threat.

Many sport trained dogs will only bite a sleeve. I honestly can't say whether or not mine would bit someone who wasn't wearing a sleeve. They've never needed to. I can say that I would be surprised if they didn't.

Protection is not aggression.

What is it then?

[/quote]

It's prey drive, it's defense drive, it's fight drive.

http://www.schillinglawdog.com/PROTECTION/protection.htm

A personal protection-trained dog is not an aggressive dog. A common misconception people have about aggressive dogs is that they are brave or "tough". This is simply not true. A greater majority than you might think appear aggressive out of fear; hence the term "fear-biter". These dogs usually bark and growl uncontrollably. When a dog is in a panic, it does not have the presence of mind to assess a situation or even listen to its handler. Much of the time even basic obedience training will not alter this behavior. An important part of personal protection training is to build the dog's confidence. A confident dog does not need to continue barking and growling if it is assured by its handler that the situation is under control. Once a dog begins to gain confidence, a noticeable change will be present. The dog will seem to learn more quickly and retain more of what it has learned due to the fact that the dog's brain is not clouded with fear -- it has more capacity to store and retrieve information.

The breeds you mention are generally aloof with those they do not know, and have strong territorial and guarding instincts on their own property.

Yes, they are aloof. That doesn't negate the fact that they also are sweet. Being aloof with strangers doesn't mean that they'll be aggressive. It means they don't care that you're not paying attention to them.

Can you help me with where in any sport dog venue it is required for the dog to allow touching by any stranger?

A sport venue? Obedience. Also in conformation.

I can tell you from my years of experience in Rottweilers, if I am not present, it does not make any difference if you are friendly or not, you will be warned what will happen if you continue to approach, and they are not kidding. In the yard, in the van, if I am not around, you will not be welcomed.

These same dogs are yes, QUITE friendly when on my leash in public, and welcome touching from any friendly stranger. But ONLY if I am present.

My mals are approachable by strangers who know how to approach a protection trained malinois. I've boarded them and the kennel staff was, for the most part, able to handle them as needed...Except for the one idiot who worked there and got bitten by Tyr when she tried to grab him by the scruff. I also had to go to the hospital a couple times when I had the dogs with me and AC was able to handle the dogs with no problems.

My dogs are very quick to read and assess a situation. They have solid instincts for a friendly stranger.

As Dan said ~

As far as pits or other bull breeds doing bite work, I can take it or leave it. At the club I was going to I saw several American Bulldogs and APBTs come down for evaluation and not one of them was accepted for a membership. That's not saying there aren't dogs of those breeds who can have success doing bite work, but it's not many of them. You are asking the dog to go against its genetic makeup to have it bite people, so they will only go so far.

If it's not in the dog's personality and temperament and drives to do the work, the dog won't make it very far. I have seen only a few pit bulls that did well in protection training, mainly geared towards sport for the simple fact that they will view the sleeve as a tug but will not bit a human who isn't wearing a sleeve.
Most of the pits I've seen don't even get far in the sport protection training. The drives just aren't quite right. The ones that did do well in Sch have been bred specifically for Sch.

 

[ACooper]

Oh no. Thats not what I meant at all. Dont get me wrong, I believe in owners rights to do what they want with their dogs, aside from dog fighting/abuse. Any owner has the right to get into any sport, regardless of breed.

I hope my original post makes sense, guys. It was way late and I was pretty tired, so my mind might have been a little foggy. I want to add that I do not know a whole lot a bout bitework/schutzhund. If bite work is simply a sport where a dog bites a sleeve as a game (playing), much like a dog playing tug of war or something, then thats a different story. I am referring to bite work as in training a dog to do protection work, where the dog is trained to attack and take down a person if need be, in REAL situations. The two are way different. One is a game/playing and one is not.

That is what I thought you were talking about

They are trained to take a person down and HOLD them there.........not necessarily tear the person to shreds, just keep them at bay with only as much force as required. At least that is how I understand the sport.

 

[Squishy22]

Well, except that bite work doesn't do some sort of magical temperament fix. The dog should have a solid temperament and strong nerves prior to starting bite work. The bite work builds on that, increasing his confidence. A dog who is unstable to begin with has no business doing bite work.



No dog of any breed should put his mouth on a human in an aggressive manner. Bite work isn't about aggression, it's about using the dogs drives (prey, play, defense) and teaching the dog how to use those drives. Many dogs will naturally want to protect their owner. Most of those dogs don't have the tools in their tool box to be able to effectively protect their owner. The bite work training teaches both the dog and the owner how to handle themselves in such situations.

My trainer put it very well when he said that all dogs know how to bite. They are born knowing how to bite, and they are biting every time they pick up a ball or a bone or a stick. Protection training teaches the dog how to control his bite.

A pit bull doing protection work is no different from any other breed doing protection work. The dog doesn't learn that it's OK to harm a human. The dog and his owner learn how to protect and defend themselves.

.

Why would it be OK for a GSD or a rott or a mal to bite someone but not a pit bull?? Excluding a breed from a training discipline or a sport is a form of BSL.

Ok, thanks for explaining that to me. That does make sense to me.

If someone broke into my house or if someone threatened my life, I would not fault my dog for protecting me. I dont care what the breed is. In those situations, then yeah, it would be ok for a pit bull to bite. The reason why training a pit bull to bite a human didnt sound like the best idea to me was strictly because I would think that it would put the breed into an even worse light than it already is. That was my reasoning. I think society sees it acceptable for guardian breeds to be trained to protect and bite, because they was what they were bred for. Not so much for APBTs.

 

[release the hounds]

just to clear one thing up, some dogs can pass a schutzhund bitework routine by making it all about a game. They can go thru the motions and pass the exercises.

However, most people I know train for a complete dog, they train to test the dog, they train to push the dogs, they train to test their own ability. When my dog chases down a helper in an escape, she's chasing prey, when that prey stops and comes back into her, she's in defense and aggressive and ready to kick his ass to protect myself and herself.

When doing blind searches, some dogs will run in and have a nice playful bark, staring at the sleeve, barking because it knows it will get to bite and play. Fully trained dogs will run into that blind see they helper and you can hear the difference in the bark and the intensity in their body. They see that guy as a threat, they've been trained to see him as one. They stare directly into their eyes and dare them to move, there isn't any "play" in their actions.

Anyway, i just wanted to make it clear, that although some people train it all as a game, not everyone or every dog in schutzhund just see's a sleeve and thinks "oh goody, play time". The beauty of a clear and balanced dog, is you can do the "oh goody play time" stuff, and they can still go into high intensity kick the guys ass if need be.

 

[DanL]

of course it opens you up to more liability, same as owning a pit bull leaves you open to more scrutiny. People pass off the headcase min pin that tears every guests pant legs , but get scared crapless by a pit bull that barks and kids teasing it behind a fence.

have your dog jump up on someone and scratch them, then have those people find out you have "bite trained" that dog, see how the people involved treat you then.

Lots of PP trainers don't even call it PP training, they call it "aggression managment" because of liability reasons. Most Insurance companies will NOT insure you if you have a dog that has had bite training. and if it didn't open you up to more liability why would you need to keep detailed records of what you do?

I'm not saying it's right, or that half the nerve bags on the street aren't more dangerous, but it is more responsibility, and if something goes wrong, people will hold you more liable, right or wrong.

My dog wouldn't jump on a stranger and scratch them. Yes, he's that good.

You document your training to CYA. What is going to be better evidence to support your case if you are being sued by some scumbag who broke into your house and got bit by your dog- a 400 page binder that documents every session of training I do with my dog, showing his reliability and stability, or me saying "Judge, my dog is a good dog and was only protecting me". This was advice given to my by a K9 cop who has been on that end of the arguement.

The fact is a PP trained dog is LESS likely to bite, and if it does, it's going to bite once and that's it. If the insurance companies don't understand that, then they need to be educated. I'm sure there are stats out there with dog bites and how many dogs were trained in bite work. I bet 99% of the dog bite incidents don't involve dogs with any bite training.

 

[Squishy22]

My personal opinion is that APBTs should never in any way be encouraged or trained to show aggression to a human.

My opinion is that when one takes such a breed, with its innate gameness and fighting drive, and flips the trigger from another dog to a human being, you are asking for big trouble.

This should be a breed that is non aggressive towards human beings in all situations.

JMO as always.

See, I keep going back and forth on exactly that. To me, that sounds like a huge mistake to do. Its scary. I mean how much will training suppress a dogs natural characteristics? Characteristics such as tearing into something until its dead, clamping its jaws and never letting go, inflicting great harm, etc. The pit bull was bred to do all of those things to another dog, to kill, and now we are turning that towards people. We are training a dog to go against exactly what they were bred to do.

I just hope that the person doing the training is a pro and knows what the hell he is doing. I hope that it is possible to completely train away a dogs NATURAL tendencies. Nothing is always 100%

 

[DanL]

just to clear one thing up, some dogs can pass a schutzhund bitework routine by making it all about a game. They can go thru the motions and pass the exercises.

However, most people I know train for a complete dog, they train to test the dog, they train to push the dogs, they train to test their own ability. When my dog chases down a helper in an escape, she's chasing prey, when that prey stops and comes back into her, she's in defense and aggressive and ready to kick his ass to protect myself and herself.

When doing blind searches, some dogs will run in and have a nice playful bark, staring at the sleeve, barking because it knows it will get to bite and play. Fully trained dogs will run into that blind see they helper and you can hear the difference in the bark and the intensity in their body. They see that guy as a threat, they've been trained to see him as one. They stare directly into their eyes and dare them to move, there isn't any "play" in their actions.

Anyway, i just wanted to make it clear, that although some people train it all as a game, not everyone or every dog in schutzhund just see's a sleeve and thinks "oh goody, play time". The beauty of a clear and balanced dog, is you can do the "oh goody play time" stuff, and they can still go into high intensity kick the guys ass if need be.

You've just outlined the main problem that Schuzhund has. It's a routine, and you can get a dog to pass the protection portion by catering to the dogs strengths and covering it's weaknesses. When the dog gets titled on the same field it's trained on its entire life, and it knows it will take so many love taps with a soft stick, and it knows exactly where the decoy will be isn't really a test of ability. Even the courage test isn't that difficult. Yes the decoy runs at the dog but he stops, and catches the dog with a prey bite.

Your example of the decoy running then turning and facing and putting defensive pressure on the dog is definitely a more real life situation. This past Monday, I sent my dog into an enclosed dog run that was only 4' wide and about 12' long after the decoy. He had to jump a barrel to get in there, then deal with about 50 milk jugs on the ground before he got to the decoy, who was directly confronting him head on. The environmental aspect alone- enclosed space, objects all over the ground that affect footing- is more than most dogs want to deal with, let alone the defensive position the dog was put in.

 

[release the hounds]

I know it's not right, but put a case in front of a jury. A dog with a history of bite training is going to probably be looked at differently than a dog without. That's just the way it is.

A guy that distributes videos on various aspects of bite training gets requests from attorneys all the time, to see if somebody involved in a court case has ordered videos on bite training. Why? because it builds their case on liability and makes it easier. YOU trained the dog to bite, therefore YOU are at a bigger fault than just some random dog doing what all dogs can do, and that is bite.

There are many other circumstances that can influence that, like someone breaking into your house or whatever. But at the end of the day bite training does put a greater liability onto you.

I fully accept it, I have 2 right now that go everywhere with me. I'm pretty confident that if anything did ever happen, the other guy deserved it. It doesn't mean they won't try pinning more on me or have an attorney say I should have done this, or I should have done that, or I shouldn't have been here or there, because my dog was bite trained.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Hey, Dan, if I'm going on a long walk in a bad part of town at night, I want your dog with me.

 

[DanL]

Yep Red, and a "pas auf" is enough for it to be game on. He hits the end of the leash at full speed, barking and lunging at whoever the target is. It's hard to keep my feet under me when he does that. Hopefully the target runs away, then he's called back to heel and praised up for being a good boy. We often let the dogs run the decoy off the field so they learn that it's not just a bite that will let them win, and that chasing the bad guy away is a win too.

I might be repeating myself (old age), but recently I had a decoy come over and hide in my back yard at night. I went outside with Gunnar like it was totally normal, and all of a sudden this bad guy jumps out from behind my pool and starts yelling at me. I give Gunnar the bite word, he runs off the porch and bites the decoy. I run down, leash him up, the decoy slips the sleeve, but Gunnar spits it right out and starts barking at the decoy. We then chased the decoy out of the yard, all the way to his truck. That's about as close to a real life situation as I can get right now and it was his first real test of his training. It's not something you want to do all the time but it's a good measuring stick. He could have avoided the decoy, he could have stood there and barked but not engaged, but he had absolutely no hesitation, he went right at him. As his training advances, I'll have a decoy come in for a "home invasion" type situation and see how he deals with that.