yeah, it is a routine. Any time there is a test that is to be used world wide and have a standard to judge all those against, it needs to be the same. The test isn't the problem, sure they could do a few things like they used to, i'm not saying it's perfect, but the larger problem is people that are passing weak dogs with questionable performances under certain judges that are a problem. But people like that infect every walk of life, not just dog sports.
If a lab was trained to protect and bite would society accept that as well? He's not a guardian breed.
See the problem is people have misconceptions about protection training. John Q Public thinks that training a dog in protection is making him mean. People also have misconceptions about pit bulls. JQP thinks pits are dangerous. Now you combine the two and JQP is going to be in an uproar.
But the solution shouldn't be to not train pits in protection. It should be to demonstrate to the public that a pit is friendly, that a protection trained dog is friendly, and that a pit trained in protection is friendly. Telling them won't mean a thing. They need to see it first hand.
Yea, but they typically don't score as well. But a dog can be trained more completely and still not bite someone who isn't wearing a sleeve. If you don't use hidden sleeves, if you don't do muzzle training, if all the dog ever bite is a sleeve, it becomes ingrained in him that there needs to be a sleeve in order for him to bite.
Yup. Which is why I was breathing fire when the vet put a dangerous dog warning in my vet files on one of my GSDs - a dog who was anything but dangerous.
See, we're not suppressing anything. We're controlling it. A dog who is aggressive towards other dogs, a dog who will kill an animal, doesn't equate to a dog who will do the same to a human. Many dogs will kill small animals in prey drive. They'll rip them apart and eat them. Those dogs won't turn that same instinct on humans. Even if those dogs trained in protection, they still won't shred and eat a human.
Now if the dog isn't bred to do it, he's not going to be very good at it, and he's not going to make it very far in the training.
That's a chance I take when I train my dog. It's also a chance I take when I take the mals out in public instead of the corgis. There are all sorts of things that can be portrayed in a bad light, and all sorts of things that can end up in court.
It's a good thing to be aware of, but it's not going to make me not train my dog in protection. It's going to motivate me to do more to educate the public on what a protection trained dog really is and is not.
See the problem is people have misconceptions about protection training. John Q Public thinks that training a dog in protection is making him mean. People also have misconceptions about pit bulls. JQP thinks pits are dangerous. Now you combine the two and JQP is going to be in an uproar.
But the solution shouldn't be to not train pits in protection. It should be to demonstrate to the public that a pit is friendly, that a protection trained dog is friendly, and that a pit trained in protection is friendly. Telling them won't mean a thing. They need to see it first hand.
Yea, but they typically don't score as well. But a dog can be trained more completely and still not bite someone who isn't wearing a sleeve. If you don't use hidden sleeves, if you don't do muzzle training, if all the dog ever bite is a sleeve, it becomes ingrained in him that there needs to be a sleeve in order for him to bite.
Yup. Which is why I was breathing fire when the vet put a dangerous dog warning in my vet files on one of my GSDs - a dog who was anything but dangerous.
See, we're not suppressing anything. We're controlling it. A dog who is aggressive towards other dogs, a dog who will kill an animal, doesn't equate to a dog who will do the same to a human. Many dogs will kill small animals in prey drive. They'll rip them apart and eat them. Those dogs won't turn that same instinct on humans. Even if those dogs trained in protection, they still won't shred and eat a human.
Now if the dog isn't bred to do it, he's not going to be very good at it, and he's not going to make it very far in the training.
That's a chance I take when I train my dog. It's also a chance I take when I take the mals out in public instead of the corgis. There are all sorts of things that can be portrayed in a bad light, and all sorts of things that can end up in court.
It's a good thing to be aware of, but it's not going to make me not train my dog in protection. It's going to motivate me to do more to educate the public on what a protection trained dog really is and is not.
But a dog that has been through bite training (and been trained right) will NOT continue to tear a human to shreds. He will release on command and and be done with, whereas a dog that has NOT been trained may very well attempt to protect your home/person and go way to far in the process, doing what HE deems best instead of what you need/want him to do.
I would much rather explain to a court why an intruder's arm was broken, skin was broken, and/or he was taken down and held, than why my dog mauled, hospitalized and/or killed said intruder.
Phew, Baha sums it up in one simple statement yet again!
I would much rather explain to a court why an intruder's arm was broken, skin was broken, and/or he was taken down and held, than why my dog mauled, hospitalized and/or killed said intruder.
Phew, Baha sums it up in one simple statement yet again!
I havent had the time to read through this thread thoroughly so I appologize if this has been mentioned already but, how about the fact that a lot of the times pitties are "playing" when doing bitework, not working out of defense??? To them the bitesleeve is just a cool tug toy. So many times you hear of dogs with great solid bites on the sleeve who get confused and cur out if they are ever given the option to actually bite a person???
I support pitties doing bitework so long as they arent being pushed to work out of defense. Just a "higher level" game of "tug"
I support pitties doing bitework so long as they arent being pushed to work out of defense. Just a "higher level" game of "tug"
S
Corgipower, I have to say that you do put my mind to ease a bit. I hope you're 100% correct. I would have to know more about the sport than I do, but I dont. I can see how it would work for the dogs benefit if successfully done. But then theres that thing in the back of my mind that says, gosh, I really hope that a pit bull can turn off their aggression as soon as the handler gives the command to do so... and not get caught up in their fighting rage where they never give up, no matter what.
HA!! I would love it if I was 100% correct. But if I was, I wouldn't be here to learn things.
I've been training in protection sport and pp for several years, studied under one of the best Schutzhund trainers, and been active in several clubs. If they don't turn off, if they don't listen to their handler, they don't get far in the bite work. Keep in mind too that the helper doesn't want to get bit, and part of that is prevented by helping the owner maintain control.
You need to be sure to go to a trainer who knows what he's doing. There are hot shot pp trainers who just want to look cool with a dog hanging off them and don't know what they're doing. Always watch them work other dogs before bringing your dog to them.
I've been training in protection sport and pp for several years, studied under one of the best Schutzhund trainers, and been active in several clubs. If they don't turn off, if they don't listen to their handler, they don't get far in the bite work. Keep in mind too that the helper doesn't want to get bit, and part of that is prevented by helping the owner maintain control.
You need to be sure to go to a trainer who knows what he's doing. There are hot shot pp trainers who just want to look cool with a dog hanging off them and don't know what they're doing. Always watch them work other dogs before bringing your dog to them.
And always remember- it's YOUR dog. If you are not comfortable doing something because you don't think you or your dog is ready for it, tell the trainer no! If your trainer insists you do it anyway, find a new trainer. You can easily put too much pressure on a dog and have them go into avoidance, and when that happens it takes weeks, months, or maybe never to build them up again.
We often talk of backyard breeders - when we should also mention backyard trainers.
The COUGH COUGH self exclaimed trainers who promote the aggressive end of any breed. Before doing any foundation obedience, intense socialization on all pups_before doing PP work or a PP test RUIN it for the experts.
Formula for PP work to succed.
A. Getting a dog from a reputable breeder , or getting a rescue and finding a trainer to test the dog to see if it has the stability or correct drives.
B Intense daily social work with all acts of life ,which should start before the pup is sold.
C. FINDING THE EXPERT TRAINER - harder then finding a expert breeder.
D. 1 year or 2 for Molosser of obedience work.
E. Play drive - fun games of PP work at same time - playing tug, tracking No defense or bite work.
F After A - e is done and the trainer feels both the OWNER and dog is social stable creatures ready to see if the dog will protect in a test, or do well in sport.
They start with a puppy sleeve and NEVER ever break the dog and never ever let the dog LOSE a agiation young session.
They slowly build up the dogs nerves by applying pressure.
Many backyard trainers are macho idiots who cant take on a real human in combat.
So they try to break dogs and harm breeds and dogs in the process.
personally for my breed I do NOT want to learn long sends or attack of a stranger.
I only want the dog to defend and not to get hyped up.
My dogs spit he sleeve out and redirect on the bad guy trying to hurt me.
When they stop they turn off.
A well trained PP dog is a very safe dog.
The COUGH COUGH self exclaimed trainers who promote the aggressive end of any breed. Before doing any foundation obedience, intense socialization on all pups_before doing PP work or a PP test RUIN it for the experts.
Formula for PP work to succed.
A. Getting a dog from a reputable breeder , or getting a rescue and finding a trainer to test the dog to see if it has the stability or correct drives.
B Intense daily social work with all acts of life ,which should start before the pup is sold.
C. FINDING THE EXPERT TRAINER - harder then finding a expert breeder.
D. 1 year or 2 for Molosser of obedience work.
E. Play drive - fun games of PP work at same time - playing tug, tracking No defense or bite work.
F After A - e is done and the trainer feels both the OWNER and dog is social stable creatures ready to see if the dog will protect in a test, or do well in sport.
They start with a puppy sleeve and NEVER ever break the dog and never ever let the dog LOSE a agiation young session.
They slowly build up the dogs nerves by applying pressure.
Many backyard trainers are macho idiots who cant take on a real human in combat.
So they try to break dogs and harm breeds and dogs in the process.
personally for my breed I do NOT want to learn long sends or attack of a stranger.
I only want the dog to defend and not to get hyped up.
My dogs spit he sleeve out and redirect on the bad guy trying to hurt me.
When they stop they turn off.
A well trained PP dog is a very safe dog.
I know some people who have successfully titled dogs in PSA (protection sports of america) which is one of the harder titles to get. My friends do it the it the opposite way. Nothing but drive building, confidence building, environmental training and bite grip work on the pup until it's around a year old. At this point you have what's called a "green dog". THEN they start putting obedience into the equation, off the field. Then they introduce the obedience on the field and use the bite as the reward. The dog wants the bite so bad it will do anything for the handler. The dog is so focused on the handler, waiting for it's reward, that the obedience is off the hook amazing, under incredible distraction.
Here's a link to PSA, if anyone is interested in seeing how it's set up for the various titles. There are a lot of cool pictures too, and yes, there are some bully breeds competing. Also look at the obedience requirements- level 1 isn't so bad, but look at level 3- you need a badass dog to pass this level:
PSA Level 3
This level of the PSA test requires the handler and dog to perform obedience and protection exercises and routines of a surprise nature. This is the highest level of achievement in PSA and is meant to be a test of the utmost difficulty and reward the most versatile dogs and trainers. None of the exercises will be announced before the trial. The goal of the scenarios shall be to challenge the handling skills of the handler, and to challenge the training and nerves of the dog.
Dogs who figure out a way to solve the problem shall be rewarded rather than penalized for not conforming to the outcome envisioned by the judge in making up the scenario. Handlers should be afforded the ability to make sensible decisions about the use of their dog, and judges will encourage creative realistic thinking on the part of the dog and handler. For example: Snow fence is used to simulate a wall (impenetrable barrier), but the dog realizes he can crawl under or jump over it in order to neutralize the threat or apprehend the decoy. This will be rewarded, rather than penalized.
Judges will also not set up scenarios that are “doomed to fail.†Judges must not reward weakness of nerve in favor of control. Example: We will not ask a dog to out in the middle of a severe attack while the attacker is still fighting the dog successfully. A dog that is likely to perform this successfully is one who doesn’t want to be engaged in a fight from the start, versus a strong dog who is likely to continue fighting until he has reasonably neutralized the attacker.
PSA 3 Obedience:
The obedience phase will be 100 points. At this level, dressed decoys are allowed on field to serve as distractions during obedience exercises. Agitation (within reason and accepted judging standards), passive or agitated bites are allowed during obedience. The obedience must include at least six of the 10 following mandatory exercises, but is not limited to these exercises alone:
(1) Off-leash heeling, including turns (left, right, about) and change of pace, return to heel, and figure-8.
(2) Window, hurdle, or tunnel obstacles.
(3) Sit or down in motion
(4) Food refusal
(5) Change of position (sit/down/stand)
(6) Retrieve over obstacles (tunnel, hurdles, A-frame)
(7) Sit on recall
(8) A-frame climb
(9) Go-ahead and down (voraus or send out)
( 10) Directed jumping
Judges shall design the exercises to challenge the dog and handler, but care must be taken to provide exercises that are reasonable and fair to all dogs entered.
PSA 3 Protection:
The protection phase will be 240 points (4 scenario exercises, 60 points each). The protection phase must include the following mandatory exercises; however, the judge is free to set-up the exercises in any context he/she wishes:
(1) Courage test with clatter-stick hits
(2) Call-off
Suggested Exercises:
Remote transports
Object guards
Muzzle attacks
Send to hold & bark with agitation.
Simple area searches
Multiple call-offs
Tests of nerve (heavy environmental distraction)
http://www.psak9.org
Here's a link to PSA, if anyone is interested in seeing how it's set up for the various titles. There are a lot of cool pictures too, and yes, there are some bully breeds competing. Also look at the obedience requirements- level 1 isn't so bad, but look at level 3- you need a badass dog to pass this level:
PSA Level 3
This level of the PSA test requires the handler and dog to perform obedience and protection exercises and routines of a surprise nature. This is the highest level of achievement in PSA and is meant to be a test of the utmost difficulty and reward the most versatile dogs and trainers. None of the exercises will be announced before the trial. The goal of the scenarios shall be to challenge the handling skills of the handler, and to challenge the training and nerves of the dog.
Dogs who figure out a way to solve the problem shall be rewarded rather than penalized for not conforming to the outcome envisioned by the judge in making up the scenario. Handlers should be afforded the ability to make sensible decisions about the use of their dog, and judges will encourage creative realistic thinking on the part of the dog and handler. For example: Snow fence is used to simulate a wall (impenetrable barrier), but the dog realizes he can crawl under or jump over it in order to neutralize the threat or apprehend the decoy. This will be rewarded, rather than penalized.
Judges will also not set up scenarios that are “doomed to fail.†Judges must not reward weakness of nerve in favor of control. Example: We will not ask a dog to out in the middle of a severe attack while the attacker is still fighting the dog successfully. A dog that is likely to perform this successfully is one who doesn’t want to be engaged in a fight from the start, versus a strong dog who is likely to continue fighting until he has reasonably neutralized the attacker.
PSA 3 Obedience:
The obedience phase will be 100 points. At this level, dressed decoys are allowed on field to serve as distractions during obedience exercises. Agitation (within reason and accepted judging standards), passive or agitated bites are allowed during obedience. The obedience must include at least six of the 10 following mandatory exercises, but is not limited to these exercises alone:
(1) Off-leash heeling, including turns (left, right, about) and change of pace, return to heel, and figure-8.
(2) Window, hurdle, or tunnel obstacles.
(3) Sit or down in motion
(4) Food refusal
(5) Change of position (sit/down/stand)
(6) Retrieve over obstacles (tunnel, hurdles, A-frame)
(7) Sit on recall
(8) A-frame climb
(9) Go-ahead and down (voraus or send out)
( 10) Directed jumping
Judges shall design the exercises to challenge the dog and handler, but care must be taken to provide exercises that are reasonable and fair to all dogs entered.
PSA 3 Protection:
The protection phase will be 240 points (4 scenario exercises, 60 points each). The protection phase must include the following mandatory exercises; however, the judge is free to set-up the exercises in any context he/she wishes:
(1) Courage test with clatter-stick hits
(2) Call-off
Suggested Exercises:
Remote transports
Object guards
Muzzle attacks
Send to hold & bark with agitation.
Simple area searches
Multiple call-offs
Tests of nerve (heavy environmental distraction)
http://www.psak9.org
Thanks a Cooper and yes Dan PSA is a pit different, but most of the breeds titling with them are the breeds created by man for herding or protection or the best breed ever GSD's. Many lines of these breeds are selected for service to man.
The APBT was not created for this kinda of work or sport so I personally feel socialization and obedience should take paramount to any type of 'bite Building" due to the danger inherant.
And for many of the rare molossers such as mine NO agiation should ever occur untill the dog is mature enough and social enough to understand not every one with a stick deserves to get bit.
If it is not a game to them then it becomes a liability.
Due to the size of molossers or in this case the STRENGTH of a ABPT .
The APBT was not created for this kinda of work or sport so I personally feel socialization and obedience should take paramount to any type of 'bite Building" due to the danger inherant.
And for many of the rare molossers such as mine NO agiation should ever occur untill the dog is mature enough and social enough to understand not every one with a stick deserves to get bit.
If it is not a game to them then it becomes a liability.
Due to the size of molossers or in this case the STRENGTH of a ABPT .
APBT were also widely used BEFORE being brought to the Americas as a driving and hunting dog. That usage was also as widely spread as fighting and baiting.
More dogs lived as farm dogs and household pets than fighting dogs. This is also proven by the breeders records of the time.
http://www.realpitbull.com/history.html (one source of information)
Primarily used as an animal which could pin and control large and dangerous beasts such as boar, bear and bull, dogfighting was never the original purpose of the bulldog. Dog fighters will argue this point, but the evidence is quite clear.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm (another)
More dogs lived as farm dogs and household pets than fighting dogs. This is also proven by the breeders records of the time.
http://www.realpitbull.com/history.html (one source of information)
Primarily used as an animal which could pin and control large and dangerous beasts such as boar, bear and bull, dogfighting was never the original purpose of the bulldog. Dog fighters will argue this point, but the evidence is quite clear.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm (another)