The Dreaded E-Collar *dun dun*

[Roxy's CD]

Well, my trainer has finally suggested it for Roxy.

Roxy has a way about her that can frusterate the most patient of people. She knows the word "down" well enough to spell it let alone do it. Yet today at school she refused to. She got some leash corrections/praise, and still continued to look at me like I was stupid.

Also the stand for exam. is coming along but not near as fast as we'd like it to.

In her group lesson that starts next week there is a lady that paid $2500 to take some course on using them. She uses it with all of her dogs. And my trainer wants me to seriously think about it.

This is how she explained it:

After a half hour of work, Roxy wanders off to sniff something. I call her to come. She hears me, looks at me but ultimately decides not to come. She says that having the e-collar or having her on leash is the same thing but the e-collar correction is a "sharper" correction per se.

ex) I call her to come, she looks at me, but does not come right away *zap* "come!" and she comes, treat praise.

The lady uses it on level one, and my trainer has described it as just an "electrical" pulse.

She makes it sound so, so *not* bad. With Hades I would never think twice about telling her off for mentioning something along these lines. Hades works to please me, because he loves to make me happy. Roxy on the other hand, does what she wants when she wants.

Ex) Heeling. She lags. I bribe her with food, it works for a minute than she doesn't care. Leash correction, it works once or twice and then she gets pissed off...

When I used to say that Roxy was doing so well and Hades was lagging, I understand why my trainer said that Hades will exceed Roxy quickly because he doesn't have that "edge". He's happy just to be with me, he just *loves* being alive. Whereas Roxy, I guess is more "independent". She likes school, but when she decides she doesn't want to train anymore... I haven't found anything to motivate her. My voice doesn't work, food only works for so long, and leash corrections only work for so long until she get's angry and pisssed..

*sigh* I guess we all just have bad training days, but I never thought that I would have to resort to the e-collar for Roxy... I never thought she was that bad...

Anyone have a hard dog to motivate?

How do you motivate your dogs???

Sorry it was long...

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Sorry, can't help .
IMO however, I would'nt use it on any of my dogs.

~Tucker

 

[LabBreeder]

Oh boy. I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you've done everything possible to reinforce good behavior without using the E-Collar and she still doesn't want to listen to you all the time. If it is absolutely the last resort....maybe you have to see what happens. My thing is, what if it just pisses her off worse than you pulling on the leash does? Will she run away or attack or what? Are there any other training collars you could try first?

 

[silverpawz]

First, I want to say that I've used e-collars and had good success with them. Still use them on some dogs. Would never assume to use one on every dog though. Not a one size fits all kind of trainer. When used correctly they're perfectly humane. But like any other tool when in the hands of the wrong people they can do some damage.

Leash correction, it works once or twice and then she gets pissed off...

What does this mean? Is she aggressive toward you when you correct her? If so I can't say that I'd reccomend using an e-collar unless it's with someone who has EXTENSIVE experience in using them with aggressive dogs. It can be done, but it takes some skill. Just taking a course does not an expert make. You could do more harm than good (and even end up with some bites) if you don't have well qualified help.

Her overall behavior that you've described sounds like a dog that doesn't have you on her radar. Using an e-collar won't help to change your relationship with your dog and most often that's what needs changing. The refusal to ackowledge you or obey your commands when she doesn't feel like it is only a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

How do you interact with her on a daily basis? Does she have free run of the house? Do you require her to work for what she wants? Do you allow her to sometimes get away with pushy behavior? Can she be snarky toward you without any consesquences?

How you interact with your dog 99% of the time will impact that 1% you want to control. You have get on her radar and earn her respect before you can have a dog that will obey your every commond without hesitation. You can't skip that step and go straight to the results.

Personally, I'd put her on a modified Ruff Love program. Works wonders to turn a dog with a "whatever" type personality into one that that thinks "Jump? How high?" instead.

 

[lastkid]

My understanding of an e-collar correction is that it's much less personal to the dog than, say, a prong or other collar correction. They don't see you do it, so ultimately, it appears more "objective" than the dog seeing/feeling you make that leash correction. Of course, that's with the owner who's trained in how to give that correction, because it does require greater precision than other methods. The collars made now have so many different stim levels - they're really much more humane than they used to be. I'm forgetting the brand (I want to say Dogtra), but one collar has three different stim levels, each of which is broken down in five stages. Like 1a, 1b, 1c, etc. I've felt the lower level stims and it's like very mild static electricity.

I've heard totally conflicting stories about e-collars (I don't use them myself). A dog I know has had AMAZING success with one - he used to be wildly dog aggressive and now can have calm, relaxed, normal contact with dogs. Another dog I know got zapped one time and shot about three feet straight into the air. He didn't suffer any anxiety or anything afterwards, but his owner wasn't comfortable with trying again. The first dog is a very tough dog, the second is a very soft dog.

I personally wouldn't use it for a stand for exam, especially if the only reason is because she's not progressing fast enough for your trainer. I also wouldn't use it if she shuts down on collar corrections or gives you the stink eye for collar corrections, because it might make her shut down more (it might not). I think that at low levels, an e-collar may very well help with the off-leash recall, provided that absolutely nothing else works. I really think e-collars are a last resort for most dogs.

Roxy sounds a bit like Penny - Pen used to get to a point in class where it was like, "I'm done here, when can we leave?" if we went on too long, or did the same thing too long. What I did was work at home with really short fast sessions, always ending before she wanted to. I trained silly little things like "Touch" that she could succeed at easily, started training sessions with "Touch" every time, and then incorporated them into class time when she got bored. She'd start to act like class was over, I'd tell her to "Touch" - it instantly put her back into learning mode.

If class is going on too long for Roxy, maybe you could head for the parking lot or take a little walk and come back. Do some command she knows really well and likes to do. Stop training and wrestle with her. Whatever works to get her out of bored mode and back into work mode. It might help to give you both a break, so you don't get frustrated and stressed out. And like silverpawz suggested, maybe do some doggy boot camp/hardcore NILIF/Ruff Love kind of thing to work on that bond, and get it even stronger than it is now.

 

[PWCorgi]

Frodo has a tendency to be slightly unmotivated at times, lol. He would get to a point after a while where he just decided that the training wasn't benefiting him and sit and stare at me while I gave him commands . I was using treats as motivation (all the dogs I've ever owned have been very food motivated) but he just seemed to loose interest after a while.

Now if he starts to lag or get bored I get him really worked up (jumping around, talking in a playful voice, doing wacky heeling patterns to keep him on his toes) and that usually can keep him focused and working for a while, it's more like a play session than a training session, but he enjoys it more and we have gotten more accomplished than we were when I was using treats.

Have you tried clicker training? I do this with both corgis and I just started it with my 6 yo, who before wouldn't do a trick unless she could see the treat in my hand, and it really seems to be helping.

 

[OutlineACDs]

It sounds to me like one of two things is happening:
1: She does not have the desire to work for the reward that you are using. Not every dog works well for treats, obviously something is lacking in her desire to work for you and I would suggest building up an EXTENSIVE reward base. A lot of rewards thst she absolutley loves and a few she will accept. You only give the really good treats/rewards for a job well done. a so-so job gets something low-level, like a cheerio.
2: Buy and read the book Ruff Love, by Susan Garrett. There may be something lacking in your relationship with Roxy. Keep in mind, this is a very intensive program. You do not have to follow it 100%, but you will develop a much better relationship with her, and have more control over her if you do it as close to the book as possible. If I'm not mistaken, Roxy has had some aggression issues? This program will definately help with that.

Personally, I really don't believe in using an e-collar for something like this. She is being 'stubborn', but I think it was discussed on here before, dogs don't do things just for spite. She isn't just ignoring you because shes 'pissy' or angry at you. She is either totally uninterested in what you are telling her to do, and lacks proper reinforcers, or her relationship with you is not as strong as you think.

You may want to take a break from the higher level training you have been doing and focus on building a good reward base, and a better relationship.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Personally, I'd put her on a modified Ruff Love program. Works wonders to turn a dog with a "whatever" type personality into one that that thinks "Jump? How high?" instead.

LOL, I read your post most of the way through, but i skipped this last part. im glad someone else on here suggested that book.

 

[doberkim]

Her overall behavior that you've described sounds like a dog that doesn't have you on her radar. Using an e-collar won't help to change your relationship with your dog and most often that's what needs changing. The refusal to ackowledge you or obey your commands when she doesn't feel like it is only a symptom of the problem, not the problem.

How do you interact with her on a daily basis? Does she have free run of the house? Do you require her to work for what she wants? Do you allow her to sometimes get away with pushy behavior? Can she be snarky toward you without any consesquences?

How you interact with your dog 99% of the time will impact that 1% you want to control. You have get on her radar and earn her respect before you can have a dog that will obey your every commond without hesitation. You can't skip that step and go straight to the results.

i really have to agree with a lot of what is said in this post.

i have used an e-collar on one of my dogs and he did very well on it when used correctly. i trained with someone who had used one for YEARS, trained with some of the top people in the field, and had a TON of breed experience with dobermans. i also did not use the e-collar for everything - for bowie, it became an extra-insurance for recalls when we were out hiking and that was about it.

the relationship problems you have with roxy arent going to be solved by an e-collar. you said so yourself - you havent found something that motivates her - so you instead want to motivate her with corrections? and for what this poster asks - yes, roxy does run the household. she IS snarky with you - she snaps and growls at you when asked to get off the couch. she guards you from other people, and isn't well behaved in public all the time. these are basics that you need to deal with before you can keep focusing on her advanced obedience training - having a dog that can do go-outs and dumbell retrieves means nothing if you cannot have her be well behaved around other people and animals.

i have no problem with proofing a dog that understands what is to be done, using an e-collar. but that isn't what you want - you have a dog that lacks drive and you cannot motivate.

in addition - you also have a dog that has shown some pretty big displays of aggression towards others, and even towards one of your trainers (the agility trainer, right? didnt she snap at her when on the dog walk?). i wouldnt take an aggressive dog and just pop an ecollar on them and send them to someone who just took a class recently and now knows all...

if roxy loses her attention span after a certain amount of time, then stop training before that happens! keep her sessions short and end on a GOOD note - not with her blowing you off because shes burnt out. if roxy doesn't have a good foundation and a ton of drive, then stop teaching her advanced exercises and work on BUILDING some drive in her and work on yoru RELATIONSHIP.

failure to progress as fast as you would think she should, isn't reason enough to use an e-collar. if she is blowing you off when she is off-leash, then plain and simple she SHOULDNT BE OFF at this time.

i think you need to take a step back, look at your relationship with roxy, and what she can realistically accomplish. a dog with low drive is going to be harder to train, period - you need to find what is right and build the relationship up from the bottom. ive worked a dog with low drive, and we successfully trained and competed - and i had to try many different things until we figured out what worked. i never trained him with the e-collar (though he was the one that used it for recalls, purely for safety reasons). you need to look at roxy's temperament and decide what is safe for her, and what she can realistically do, and what you can realistically expect. you need to look at how you have trained her in the past, how you are going to be able to work on motivating her, and what her drives are right now, and how you can build her up. the problem here isn't with roxy necessarily, its that there is a lack of something in the foundation - you need to start over there and work back up.

 

[Roxy's CD]

My understanding of an e-collar correction is that it's much less personal to the dog than, say, a prong or other collar correction. They don't see you do it, so ultimately, it appears more "objective" than the dog seeing/feeling you make that leash correction.

This is exactly why my trainer wants me to use it. When she get's too many leash corrections, say for lagging while heeling, she'll verbally mumble... Not growl/bark but a mumble like, "GOD! Stop doing that! AAH!".

Yesterday was very frusterating and for the first time in a long time she did get "agressive" with me by showing her teeth, when I had gone to correct her for ignoring my "come" command. She was sick of working on the stand for exam. and had wandered away. I happily called her to come, she looked at me and continued. Than I said it once more much more firmly. She ignored, but *did* look at me, so I went in to grab her collar and bring her back to where I was and she did snarl at me. Immediately I stood up straighter and gave her the "stare", her tail went between her legs her ears went back and she tried to lie down.

She does not have the desire to work for the reward that you are using.

This is exactly the problem.

Ex) Roxy *loves* her directed jumping, "go-outs". Verbal praise is enough for her when it come to this.

She *hates* stand for exam. because she hates allowing other people to touch her face. (She doesn't care if I touch her face, it's anyone other than me or my bf). After 3 stand for exams. she gets bored and no treat, no happiness in my tone of voice or leash/verbal correction can get her motivated again.

Roxy was having "dominance" issues, which I believe her free reign of the furniture was the source. That has since been curbed, and I have no problems getting her off the couch, she usually does so very submissively also.

She does kind of have free reign other than the furniture though. In this heat we are always on the main floor, and it is a very open concept house, there's no where really I can block of her from a part of the house.

She works for everything, her food, of course toys and attention.

She's off leash everyday, and never has she run away or wandered too far.

She get's 2 pills every morning and she's a doll taking them, never a fuss.

Getting groomed/nails clip, never a problem.

On leash to the park, doesn't pull, maybe the leash tightens at the sight of another dog or squirrel but she *never* pulls.

Did I miss anything? LOL

Thank you all for your advice.

Kim, like you mentioned that was a worry for me as well. Leash corrections for certain things do not go over well with her so I start to believe she might react harshly to the e-collar. ON THE OTHER HAND: It would be at the lowest setting and as someone mentioned, I am not associated with the correction. It just happens to remind her, "Oh Sh!t mom just called me to come, I didn't come, than I got this tingly feeling, maybe I should come." LOL

I'm willing to try anything else before resorting to this, but it seems I've exhausted all other methods.

ps- The problem with her stand for exam. is not standing, but rather allowing people to examine her without, snarling/showing teeth and she has snapped at my trainer. (just so you know she has never snapped at me, or even shown her teeth, me touching her is no problem)

My trainer thinks we can curb her "edge" with the e-collar... I'd like to find a less intrusive, more motivational way in the hopes of the end result being a dog that's happy to comply rather than afraid of the consequences of not replying.

 

[Gempress]

Yesterday was very frusterating and for the first time in a long time she did get "agressive" with me by showing her teeth, when I had gone to correct her for ignoring my "come" command. She was sick of working on the stand for exam. and had wandered away. I happily called her to come, she looked at me and continued. Than I said it once more much more firmly. She ignored, but *did* look at me, so I went in to grab her collar and bring her back to where I was and she did snarl at me. Immediately I stood up straighter and gave her the "stare", her tail went between her legs her ears went back and she tried to lie down.

I think Roxy is still obviously still having respect issues. I agree, hold off on the advanced obedience and work on your relationship instead. It's much more important. And an e-collar will not help in this case. An e-collar is used to refine a behavior, not fix a relationship.

The collar will teach Roxy to supress her threat warning, but her feelings will not cease. And she may just start skipping the warning and go straight to a bite.

 

[Roxy's CD]

doberkim I appreciate your response.

Although I have changed a lot of my attitudes with her since my realization of her "dominance" issues with me.

As posted above, she was banned off the furniture for a week straight, and only allowed up when I invited her. Now, I'll tell her to get down, just because, and she complies. No teeth, no "snarkiness".


YOu are right, she does "guard" me from other people, although it is a mix of her not wanting to be touched by strangers too.

We are working on this, with a great tactic Red had mentioned. She has a basket that she carries (to work on her holds) that I fill with candies. Strangers can reach into the basket (near her face) and take a candy and Roxy doesn't mind at all. She is very proud of her basket.

Part of this stranger problem is me though. It is now learned behaviour, but personally I have always been wary of strangers. Of course my nervousness transfers to Roxy and she goes into "protect mommy mode".

Roxy has no problems with other animals. She has never hurt or acted out aggressively towards another animals. She actually is very focused in group lessons and doesnt' bother with the other dogs.

Yes, Roxy has misbehaved in public. But she has gotten much better through the confidence building school has given her. We can walk through town with no problem, loose leash and she does not bother with passerbys. She has gotten better with me talking to people, and as I've posted before sits calmly at my side. Yes, you are right, she isn't totally well-behaved, she will show her teeth if someone moves to touch her, but that is something I've been working dilligently on.

you need to look at roxy's temperament and decide what is safe for her, and what she can realistically do, and what you can realistically expect.

Do you think that it's hopeless to expect Roxy to behave? I've admitted the way I've treated her in the past is why I'm paying for it now. But I *am* trying. 24/7. I do not expect her to be perfect yet, she's not even two, and is doing so well. I know you don't like the word "stubborn", so her lack of motivation for *certain* activities is why the e-collar has been reccommended as well as her "sauciness" with strangers. I was hoping the "stranger" problem would get fixed slowly, but surely with more and more exposure with people, but she has known and *likes* my trainer. She just really does not like being touched...

How did you motivate your low-drive dog?

I defintely think it is her motivation that is the problem. But she picks and chooses what she wants to do with enthusiasm and what's a fight between us.

Thank you for your reply

 

[doberkim]

This is exactly why my trainer wants me to use it. When she get's too many leash corrections, say for lagging while heeling, she'll verbally mumble... Not growl/bark but a mumble like, "GOD! Stop doing that! AAH!".

Yesterday was very frusterating and for the first time in a long time she did get "agressive" with me by showing her teeth, when I had gone to correct her for ignoring my "come" command. She was sick of working on the stand for exam. and had wandered away. I happily called her to come, she looked at me and continued. Than I said it once more much more firmly. She ignored, but *did* look at me, so I went in to grab her collar and bring her back to where I was and she did snarl at me. Immediately I stood up straighter and gave her the "stare", her tail went between her legs her ears went back and she tried to lie down.

i would take a serious look at your relationship now, and what you hope to accomplish. your dog has serious issues, and i dont mean to be rude about this, or have this come across the wrong way. but you seem to be missing all the signs she is laying out there that she has not a single ounce of respect for you, and could give a **** what you really want. roxy does what pleases her, and she is warning you and others time and time again, that she DOESNT want to do these things, and some day shes going to enforce it.

i also have to stress again that i think your training is going way too fast - you are asking her to do things she clearly isnt ready to give, and she lacks a foundation of trust and respect between the two of you.

This is exactly the problem.

Ex) Roxy *loves* her directed jumping, "go-outs". Verbal praise is enough for her when it come to this.

She *hates* stand for exam. because she hates allowing other people to touch her face. (She doesn't care if I touch her face, it's anyone other than me or my bf). After 3 stand for exams. she gets bored and no treat, no happiness in my tone of voice or leash/verbal correction can get her motivated again.

so roxy likes to do what roxy likes to do. and when she doesnt like something or want to do it, she gets aggressive. i think she is making that quite clear.

if she is doing things, why isnt she getting rewarded each time? why do you repeatedly do things (like a SFE) and not reward her?

why on earth WOULD a leash or verbal correction MOTIVATE her? i dont get motivated by being corrected, neither do my dogs. im confused why you think negative things will MOTIVATE her to perform better.

im beginning to think you/your trainer and i have fundamentally different training philosophies - i correct my dogs when they are performing things INCORRECTLY. not when they lack motivation. when they lack motivation, that is MY fault and i work to MOTIVATE them.

Roxy was having "dominance" issues, which I believe her free reign of the furniture was the source. That has since been curbed, and I have no problems getting her off the couch, she usually does so very submissively also.

not was. is. she is still having dominance "issues" - she has made that clear as of yesterday! she shouldnt be on the furniture at ALL right now.

She does kind of have free reign other than the furniture though. In this heat we are always on the main floor, and it is a very open concept house, there's no where really I can block of her from a part of the house.

She works for everything, her food, of course toys and attention.

She's off leash everyday, and never has she run away or wandered too far.

She get's 2 pills every morning and she's a doll taking them, never a fuss.

Getting groomed/nails clip, never a problem.

On leash to the park, doesn't pull, maybe the leash tightens at the sight of another dog or squirrel but she *never* pulls.

Did I miss anything? LOL

weve said it before - there needs to be some order in the life, and if roxy cannot safely do some things (like obedience), then for her safety AND OTHERS, she needs to not do it. roxy is willing to work to get things she wants, but when she doesnt care, she doesnt want to do it - thats a lack of motivation, and above all, also a lack of foundation. i would also never take a dog with aggression issues and let her off leash, ever.

Kim, like you mentioned that was a worry for me as well. Leash corrections for certain things do not go over well with her so I start to believe she might react harshly to the e-collar. ON THE OTHER HAND: It would be at the lowest setting and as someone mentioned, I am not associated with the correction. It just happens to remind her, "Oh Sh!t mom just called me to come, I didn't come, than I got this tingly feeling, maybe I should come." LOL

I'm willing to try anything else before resorting to this, but it seems I've exhausted all other methods.

i am familiar with how the ecollar works, remember - i used one. i know who is and isnt associated with the correction.
but again, how exactly does the trainer think an e-collar is going to MOTIVATE your dog, and how is it going to stop your dog from snapping and snarling at people?

ps- The problem with her stand for exam. is not standing, but rather allowing people to examine her without, snarling/showing teeth and she has snapped at my trainer. (just so you know she has never snapped at me, or even shown her teeth, me touching her is no problem)

she just snapped at you YESTERDAY! i really have to say that i am FLABBERGASTED that you guys think that sending her to higher classes is the answer when she cannot even be handled by someone else without snapping. your dog, no offense, is really coming across like an accident waiting to happen. how do you guys think an e-collar is going to fix this? by correcting her for showing that shes uncomfortable and doesnt want to be handled? you dont CORRECT a dogs aggression to make it go away - all that will accomplish is that roxy is going to stop growling and showing teeth, and one day just bite out of the blue when people pass her comfort level.

 

[Roxy's CD]

OK, so I've gone back and re-read posts...

What do I do to "work on our relationship"?

A typical day: (any behaviour I would mark as "dominant" aggressive towards me (*)
-bathroom
-pills
-breakfast (sits and waits until I say OK)
-daily groom (stand, shows dislike for getting sprayed, tail down, ears back, "talks" not growl/snarl/shows teeth though *)
-we work on stuff inside sits/downs/stands/comes/drop on recall (at home she does everything without any qualms (she *really* enjoys, drop on recalls/retrievals/downs in general she gets excited about)
-relaxing in the house (she plays with Hades, we play with her, yes we play tug, but that has never been an issue, she knows the command "enough" and complies 100% by releasing and sitting *immediately*
-I tell her "off" (the couch) at least 5 times a day, and I just did it now, she immediately complies usually very quickly and submissively (tail between legs, ears back, no eye contact)
-our walks (are on leash until we get to the park then off leash) She never strays, we play frisbee... Nothing really wrong there...

What other things do I do to build our relationship?

I thought school was a "bonding time" for us... And she has improved with her confidence and with her compliance with my commands... and she used to enjoy it.

Edit (we posted at the same time)

Doberkim, be as blunt as you like, I understand we have issues, and how ever you need to get your point across, please do so

I understand what you are saying I really do, but have I missed what I need to do to help work on relationship/dominance issues/ lack of motivation?

It's hard enough to admit that after countless hours of work, thousands of dollars and stumped enthusism (my own) that there are *still* problems.

But I have admitted this, am bummed about it, but willing to still work on it!

I don't think I said she snapped at me, but she did show her teeth. Yes, my trainer had me get more phsyical (more leash corrections) than usual and she had "turned off" and become aggressive yes.

I am new at this. Now that you say it, corrections does seem like a ridiculous way to motivate a dog, but it seems as though I've exhausted every other way *my trainer* has given to me as an option.

We go out late at night, and have never encountered another person. When on our walks her recall is great. She's happy to be out, it's when we're at school and she has decided that coming means she has to do something she doesn't want to.

 

[Gempress]

I'm not doberkim, but I may be able to help a bit.

I think you can expect any dog to behave well. I think what doberkim meant was you need to re-evaluate exactly what Roxy is cabaple of trainingwise.

Competitive obedience is a sport...just like dog conformation. Not every human can be a professional basketball player; not every dog can be awesome at obedience. I believe that most dogs can be taught obedience, but not all of them can do it with the skill/flair necessary to perform at the highest levels. Just as it is unfair to expect every person to be a professional athlete, it is unfair to expect every dog to perform like a champ at obedience.

Zeus is a low-drive dog. He has very low food drive and not a lot of toy drive. I think we have a great relationship, and he does an absolutely wonderful job at obedience. But I don't think he'll ever have the snap and finish to expect a competitive level out of him.

EDIT: You said Roxy *used* to enjoy obedience. When did she stop enjoying it? Perhaps it was when her obedience was stepped up the the next level. Now she is expected to do things that she doesn't like and doesn't have much interest in, and she is being heavily corrected for not performing properly. I wouldn't enjoy it either, if I were in her shoes.

If anything, I suggest finding a different trainer. If Roxy is showing a bit of aggression, she may be at her limit in terms of correction. Find a trainer who uses more positive methods, perhaps.

 

[doberkim]

doberkim I appreciate your response.

Although I have changed a lot of my attitudes with her since my realization of her "dominance" issues with me.

As posted above, she was banned off the furniture for a week straight, and only allowed up when I invited her. Now, I'll tell her to get down, just because, and she complies. No teeth, no "snarkiness".

the thing is, she now gets off furniture fine, but she still has inappropriate behaviors elsewhere. its not a piece by piece thing for this dog, i dont think - she may be the kind of dog that simply CANT be on furniture, period.

YOu are right, she does "guard" me from other people, although it is a mix of her not wanting to be touched by strangers too.

We are working on this, with a great tactic Red had mentioned. She has a basket that she carries (to work on her holds) that I fill with candies. Strangers can reach into the basket (near her face) and take a candy and Roxy doesn't mind at all. She is very proud of her basket.

Part of this stranger problem is me though. It is now learned behaviour, but personally I have always been wary of strangers. Of course my nervousness transfers to Roxy and she goes into "protect mommy mode".


Yes, Roxy has misbehaved in public. But she has gotten much better through the confidence building school has given her. We can walk through town with no problem, loose leash and she does not bother with passerbys. She has gotten better with me talking to people, and as I've posted before sits calmly at my side. Yes, you are right, she isn't totally well-behaved, she will show her teeth if someone moves to touch her, but that is something I've been working dilligently on.

and that is what she needs. exposure, socialization, training, diligence, and not being PUSHED. why dont you take that same path with her obedience training?

Do you think that it's hopeless to expect Roxy to behave? I've admitted the way I've treated her in the past is why I'm paying for it now. But I *am* trying. 24/7. I do not expect her to be perfect yet, she's not even two, and is doing so well. I know you don't like the word "stubborn", so her lack of motivation for *certain* activities is why the e-collar has been reccommended as well as her "sauciness" with strangers. I was hoping the "stranger" problem would get fixed slowly, but surely with more and more exposure with people, but she has known and *likes* my trainer. She just really does not like being touched...

i know you are trying - thats why you are here and asking questions. and i dont know what is and isnt possible for roxy. but i am very afraid that the trainer you havent isn't very good at all for this dog - and shes perfectly happy skipping steps that are important.

does roxy allow your trainer to do a SFE without snapping at her now?

How did you motivate your low-drive dog?

first and foremost, we built a relationship. my low drive dog also had a large bite history - he sent someone to the hospital. he was very dominant with almost EVERy person but me, and had been trained at some point prior to me obtaining him to NOT show anything by growling or warning - he just bit.

what i did? first i built a foudnation of trust and respect between the two of us. he knew i was safe - he knew i loved him, and he worked for me because of that. he was my heart dog, and i coddled him beyond belief (which many people disagreed with). we brought obedience into it, and i admit i made mistakes with that too, including too much force that shut him down. but he enjoyed working when he was "paid" for his work with food, praise, whatever. i kept it short. i made sure i NEVER asked him to do something he couldnt physically do, or something that was dangerous for him. i NEVER pushed him beyond his comfort level (as he was not a stable dog!) without first building a foundation. i never endangered him or placed him in aposition that he would bite, or feel the need to. i never corrected him for his lack of drive - i corrected myself for training him poorly the first time around.

this dog took beginners obedience 3 times, (and then privates). above all, he thought training and obedience when he was working was the most FUN place ever - because we kept it light. he knew i was fair and just - i rewarded him when he did something well. he knew that he would be safe when i asked him to do something, and with that trust, we went places no one thought he would ever go.

what did i do to motivate my low drive dog? he worked for me, plain and simple. he worked (halfheartedly sometimes, and to the best of his ability) - because i asked him to. not because i told him to. and i promised him if it ever stopped being fun, we would stop. to the day he died, it never stopped being a fun thing for him. he was entered in 3 shows right before he died.

and that is what i think is missing the most with roxy - youa re repeatedly asking her to do things she is uncomfortable with, and she doesnt even get rewarded! she is placed in situations she has warned time and time again she doesnt like, and instead of gradually building back up to it, working on the foundation, etc - shes just popped back in it. roxy doesnt have any reason to trust you, i dont think.

i am not a tree-hugger type of trainer. my dogs work on whatever collar they need - i have prongs, i have an e-collar, i have a fursaver/choke. but above all, we work on relationship every single day. my current dog (the drivey one) could have a CD by now, even if i only had him 2.5 months, very easily - but while he has a brain that he chooses to use now and then, and tons of drive - im also working on the relationship. he has to know that he can trust me - that i am safe. that while i am the leader, i am a fair and just one. that i require some things from him, but they are not unreasonable. that i am fun to be around, that good things happen when you please me.

 

[doberkim]

I'm not doberkim, but I may be able to help a bit.

I think you can expect any dog to behave well. I think what doberkim meant was you need to re-evaluate exactly what Roxy is cabaple of trainingwise.

Competitive obedience is a sport...just like dog conformation. Not every human can be a professional basketball player; not every dog can be awesome at obedience. I believe that most dogs can be taught obedience, but not all of them can do it with the skill/flair necessary to perform at the highest levels. Just as it is unfair to expect every person to be a professional athlete, it is unfair to expect every dog to perform like a champ at obedience.

Zeus is a low-drive dog. He has very low food drive and not a lot of toy drive. I think we have a great relationship, and he does a wonderful job at obedience. But I don't think he'll ever have the snap and finish to expect a competitive level out of him.

you may even be able to compete and title - but i never held it against bowie that he wasnt taking firsts everywhere, or that he wasnt the fastest recall, or the most attention - it was fun with us. you can take the low drive dog and show, you just cannot fault them for not being the best. but thats the difference for many people - when i showed bowie, it wasnt to beat everyone else. it was to have fun and enjoy ourselves - i was blessed that bowie - despite his bite history, his herniated disk in his neck, his eventually fatal heart disease - could do it at ALL, and that was enough for me. i was happy to have that green ribbon that said we qualified. but yes, it was thrilling the day we did place

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

RCD< I can tell you exactly how to do it.

I have before, but you didn't like it much.

If Roxy came to me at this moment, or if I acquired a dog with her issues, she would be living a very austere life for some time.

She would have a lot of crate time. She would have controlled regimented exercise and training periods using a LOT of positive reinforcement. She would have ZERO access to get up on furniture, or to human sleeping areas. When she was allowed out of her crate in the house, she would be target trained to stay on a bed or mat.

No matter if you tell her to get off, every time she gets up on your furniture, IMO, is a step backwards for you two.

This dog could be turned around almost certainly, but you are going to have to take charge and change your lifestyle in order to do it.

 

[doberkim]

plain and simple, my first line of advice would be to ditch this trainer. youve posted about how close minded she can be, youve posted about your frustrations with her. and now what you write in this thread - including repeatedly pushing a dog to the point of wanting to bite or at least think about it, leaves me with no respect for her, period.

something i really have to say though - i firmly believe that you cannot at the base of a dog, get rid of aggression that is there. you can learn to manage it - you can learn to train a dog to turn to you for guidance rather than just reacting. you can instill a "pause" button - but when left to their own devices, or when your guard is down - it will still come through. ive lived with it, ive seen it. a truly dog aggressive dog can be trained to ignore other dogs, to look to you instead of reacting, can be shown and trained - but it doesnt mean that if the dog ever met another dog without you around, or off leash, etc - that it wouldnt react.

i could train bowie, i could show him, i could live with him - but if the situation wasnt controlled, and i wasnt being vigilant, bad things could and would happen.

im saying this because while i dont believe roxy is a "bad" dog - she's certainly not a truly stable dog. and in that sense, i think you need ot understand that she has limits, and that it only will hurt her if you "rely" on her or "trust" her to do what is right in situations.

training and socialization are one thing - but in the end, there is a part of a dog that we cant change or fix, and that basis for their temperament can only be modified so much.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Thanks again for your replies guys

Gemp- Yes Roxy *used* to love going to school. She doesn't like it anymore because she enjoys doing the more advanced stuff: go outs, retrievals, jumping, drop's on recall etc.

She gets "angry" and "turns off" when we go back to the "boring" basics. As soon as her dumbell comes out her tail wags. When we do go outs, she takes of like a bullet, sits and flies over jumps.

She enjoys the more advanced stuff, she likes to "show off", she likes to see Esther jump up and down and hug her to death when she does an awesome go out or drop on recall. It's the boring mundane stuff that she shuts down to.

She gets rewarded plenty. I usually go through a whole bag of treats at school, and I have plenty of treats at home, I actually just got back from buying over $100 worth of treats, and their apprarently high value treats: Roll Over's min-bites and some salmon mini treats too.

She gets verbal praise and treats but depending on her "mood" they can matter and make a difference or not.