The Dreaded E-Collar *dun dun*

[Roxy's CD]

This trainer is one of two in my area. The other one, well let's just say my trainer is 1000 times more educated, knowledgable and experienced.

I can make it clear to her that I do not want to use corrections anymore, *but* to do that, I need an alternative right?!?

Red- Thank you for the encouragement Somedays she is doing so well, and others I feel like all the time and effort I've put into this big "change" are non-existent.

The one crate I have is too small for her, but we can go back to the no furniture thing. (we just got a bed/mat for the living room) As for the bed, maybe every other day for 2-5 minutes she is on the bed cuddling with us, but that can stop as well.

Ok, so for the mat, I do the same thing as with the dumbell/touch stick? Low criteria to begin and high rewards?

(Sorry it took so long to reply, in the middle of replying we went grocery/dog treat shopping LOL)

I really want to be a responsible dog owner, hence all this work I've been doing with her. I totally understand that I will probably never be able to trust her with strangers *but* I already know this and she is never or never will be put in a situation where I cannot control her. There have been times it could be debated when she used to lunge at strangers, but not once did I ever feel scared that she was going to get away. She may be a large dog, but she has never bit me nor have I ever felt afraid.

And it does help that I'm used to draggin 1500lb horses around LOL

The only times I am not with Roxy, are if she's home alone, or with my parents. (she acts WAY different with them if I am not around)

*takes deep breath*
OK, so my homework:
-NO furniture
-start target training with the new mat (if I go somewhere ex) the kitchen, does she come with me everywhere I go or just stay on the mat?)
-lots of positive with training (we already do this... what exactly is positive? She get's tonnes of verbal praise (physical she doesn't really enjoy getting rubbed excessively for praise), top of the line treats that are available to me...


Did I miss anything?

OK, here we go... Thanks again everyone, I really do appreciate, Chaz is always there when I'm down and at my witts end. Let's hope this works

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I agree with Red, limit her freedoms. Let me tell you a quick story. This lady had a Doberman who she loved to death. Let her sit on the furniture, sleep on the bed and humanitized the hell out of that dog. One day the dog decided that it didnt want the owner sleeping in *her* bed anymore. SO when the lady went to lay down the dog said "oh no, this is my bed and I dont want you here". Long story short, the lady ended up in the hospital and the dog was PTS. I dont believe in letting a dog do those things in the first place but people do and thats fine, with submissive dogs because they think nothing of it. But the table turns when you humanatize a dominant dog. Every little gesture means something. Roxy, listen to Red, or that story might become a reality, hate to say that. You have to look at the facts, Roxy is a dominant dog who has already sghown that she has no problem *challenging* you.

 

[MomOf7]

Roxy,
Do what you believe is right. We use E-collar training for our dogs. 99 percent of labs running Field Trials or Hunt Tests use E-collars.
There is alot of misconception on e-collars. Especially from those who have no experience with them. I too was a sceptic untill I learned more about them.
For lazy or unwilling dogs who dont want to work we seperate them from the family and only bring them out to work. If they dont want to work we put them back immediatly. This way they learn that if they want to spend time with you its on your terms which helps motivate them to do well.
This may take 2-4 months. I had to do this to Red who really wanted little to do with retreiving as a pup. Broke my heart but made him a more eager retriever.
After him being Force fetched and E-collar conditioned he was a totally different retriever! Much more willing to please and much more motivated.
Since you are using a pro trainer you really need to seek his/her advice and trust him/her. Having preconcieved thoughts or ideas may make for conflicts in your relationship with your trainer. Or leave you feeling displeased.
Trust your pro and see what happens. You might be suprised on how much they know from experience. Most understand that each dog is a individual and take different routes of training to help push the dog further to where it needs to be. No one here has had any experience with your dog. We can only picture what she is like and whats going on. Without personally working with your dog its hard to make a determination as to where you need to go as far as training goes.
Just wanted you to consider a different view.

 

[doberkim]

mom - no offense, but again - how is someone going to use an e-collar to MOTIVATE a dog, or to stop it from attempting to bite a person?

how is using an e-collar going to make roxy feel more comfortable with strangers?

some of us HAVE used e-collars, HAVE been to seminars, HAVE trained with the big names and their disciples - and i still dont see HOW you are going to use an e-collar to get roxy to stop snarling at people and to make her want to work for you.


personally, i wouldnt trust a professional that repeatedly put me in a position where my dog tried to snarl and bite people.

 

[elegy]

where is the fun in any of this? for you? for her?

i absolutely wouldn't put an e-collar on a dog who is trying to bite people. you need to take a few big steps back and start working within her comfort level.

build relationship- have FUN together. make it a point to make work FUN. make it worth her while. don't set her up for failure for awhile. take a breather and get comfortable with each other. go hiking. play ball. if she likes frisbee, use frisbee as a reward for obedience. if she likes directed jumping, put something she doesn't like as much in before the jumping and use the jumping as a reward.

shake things up. be unpredictable and exciting and above all, FUN.

because if it's not fun, then what's the point?

 

[poodlesmom]

I have used e-collars on some dogs at the obed. school in the past and yes, there are times when they can help solve a problem. However, I definitely wouldn't use one to work on a stand for exam or to overcome a situation where the dog is clearly uncomfortable. I have used them for highly overly energetic dogs who tend to sometimes lack the concentration to heel off lead or recall without veering off to play and visit. If she tends to be snarly on the stand for exam I would concentrate on desensitizing her to others touching her in other types of situations. When, and only then, she has learned to accept it and be comfortable with it would I then return to working on a stand for exam starting out with someone who she is very comfortable with and slowly introducing other people in that situation. There is no way I would use an e-collar for try to correct her stand for exam. In my opinion this would be a misuse of what an e-collar is intended for and very probably would create many more problems.

I expect my dogs to follow my commands and we have been going to class for years - it's our social time every week. Both of mine have earned their CD's however when we got to training for CDX level Farley was more than willing to continue on. Chloe enjoyed all portions of it except for the dumbbell work. She absolutely hated it. And this is a dog who loves to play fetch each & every day (as long as it isn't a dumbbell). I tried everything I could think of to get her to enjoy it to no avail. Then I stepped back and said "Hey, this is supposed to be fun for both of us and it definitely isn't". Would I have liked her to get her CDX? Yes. But was it a necessity? No. So I pulled her out of CDX & got her into agility. She is loving it and doing very well and we are having fun. So her days of competing are over because while she may end up excelling in agility there is no way I am physically capable of partnering her to a competitive level but that is OK - we'll continue going to classes so she can participate in something she is enjoying.

If Roxy enjoys the CDX or Utility level I'd say continue on with that and let her do what she enjoys doing. Actually competing is a bonus but not a necessity to having a great relationship with a furpal. We have had dogs in classes in the past that due to a particular problem don't participate in each & every aspect of the class whether it is due to a physical or temperment reason. The ultimate choice is yours, not the trainer's.

 

[Roxy's CD]

We do have fun, but only when we're doing things Roxy likes. Other than that, I get frusterated and Roxy just doesn't like doing things like heeling or basically letting people touch her. So she's very difficult to work with, impossible to motivate and due to her past with being aggressive, she can very quickly turn snarky with my trainer, and after a seriously "physical" lesson, like yesterday even get snarky with me.

I really think you are all right. Something purely motivational is what would be best for Roxy.

dr2little made a great point earlier today about comparing the things Roxy enjoys and the things she doesnt.

The basics (before I came to Chaz) were formed quickly, with the usage of leash corrections/verbal/treats.

Dumbell training, (with Red) was purely motivational, no negative whatso ever, not even now... She's so solid there's no need for corrections.

Go-outs- She got minor verbal corrections (ah ah) If she wandered instead of sitting immediately... THe actual process of going out was done with treats.

I think I need to just use her normal collar and pretend that she doesn't know anything... No negative with the basics.. Maybe then she'll associate things like heeling/stands/comes with good, positive things.

It would've been much better if I'd known of the purely motivational method from the beginnning, but hey, at least I know now.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

RCD, you are way ahead of the game because you are LEARNING.

Keep doing it.

and yeah, if I were you, i'd start from square one with some heeling.

Begin by standing, and using your positive methods to SHAPE her to heel position.

I would strongly encourage you to acquire a crate that is of a size to suit her, and to use it.

A dog who is still demonstrating the kind of disrespect that she dishes out on a fairly regular basis has not earned the right to have access to the high value areas of your home such as the bedroom, (much less the BED) and your furniture.

I would do what I needed to to prevent her access to these areas.

 

[Roxy's CD]

It's just there's sooo many ways out there to accomplish the same thing yano?

All I could do, and go on was what my trainer told me. So that's what I did.

I mean we accomplished what we wanted with leash corrections, but it's not the same..

Roxy already isn't allowed in the bedroom if we're not there. The door is closed when we're gone and she just isn't allowed up there, and doesn't try to go up there if we're not in the room. (My trainer suggested this for her "dominance" issues)

She won't be allowed on the bed anymore. (even though she realy wasn't up there too much to begin with, but the bed will be cut off completely) She never got up on the bed without being asked.. She's content in her own bed.

The furniture is hard... my bf doesn't look at it the same way I do after much discussion. We just spoke about the issue and he gets angry... He doesn't think it's fair to not allow her on the furniture, and since our last ordeal with the furniture she complies when asked to get off with no ifs ands or buts... It's something I'll have to work on though with him! LOL

 

[Doberluv]

I'd ditch that trainer in a heartbeat. You never treat aggression with aggression. Every good trainer knows that. There are ways to desensatize and make new associations for the dog that the things he is worried about are good things, not things he needs to get defensive about or pushy about...whatever the case may be. This is why I hate punishment based training, collar "corrections" and all the rest of it. It can put a dog on the defensive and cause aggression in some dogs, depending on a lot of surrounding circumstances. Using an e-collar for this will probably put your dog over the edge. It is not needed. I agree with the person who wrote that somewhere the motivation is not what your dog needs or likes. It's not good enough. Is your dog hungry when you work with her? That will increase the value of your treats. Use extra good treats, real meat or cheese.

We humans, dog lovers that we are tend to waste motivators. We give them stuff all day long, affection, happy looks, food, happy talk....all kinds of things they want and need. Everytime you make a move, think....is this something my dog wants or needs? Ok..."Dog.....you do this first." Make your dog a little on the needy side. But you have to be able to show the dog what you want.

Get it out of your head that your dog should or does do things to please you and that they care so much about how you feel inside. Dogs don't think about all that. If they're pleasing you, it's because ultimately there will be something in it for them. Once you believe this, your notions of a dog being stubborn or blowing you off will vanish and you can get down to the business of real training. Dogs do things because they're opportunistic and they need to please themselves in order to survive. That's how they got domesticated in the first place...not because they cared so much about what people felt like emotionally. That said, find out what does motivate your dog. Something does or she'd lose the desire to live. Create a situation where she will be motivated. Skip a meal, don't socialize with her all day. Deprivation increases the value of a motivator. Use it to manipulate your dog to do what you want.

The only way to better behavior is through reinforcements for baby steps in the right direction. It's the only thing that makes a dog repeat behavior. And remain a happy, trusting dog. Force, punishment, fear, intimidation, coercion does nothing but undermine a dog's trust in their handler. It makes them not want to learn or work. It's nothing but a power struggle and gets noone anywhere. So, this trainer is way behind the times. Using an e-collar to treat a dog who isn't motivated is just causing it to do something out of fear of another shock. What will that do for your relationship? What kind of neurosis will your dog develop? Get your dog to work for a living....because she needs to to survive. Don't feed her her meal in a bowl. Use it handful by handful for payment for a job well done. Get the relationship to be the way it should be....a partnership. You provide for her, but she has to earn it.

I agree with a more structured lifestyle, but one where you elicit complete trust from your dog. She needs to trust other people too. And one where you are directing her and she is following you and your instructions....not the other way around.

She needs to be rewarded for good behavior and prevented from getting herself into situations that cause her to have these reactions. Set her up for success....for opportunitites where she can be rewarded. The more reinforcements for behaviors that you want, the more they'll increase. And that will snowball. That means going slowly and working up, never exceeding his level of comfort without first mastering the previous level.

If she's bored, that's OK to throw in some trickier skills. Too much repitition can be very boring for some dogs. Skip around with skills and make some playtime inbetween, like fetch. But do it in an area where he's most at ease....at home, for now. Then add one other person whom she trusts and knows to be a distraction, to work a little bit with her. I'd do this before taking her back to any group class. She's obviously bored or distracted and unmotivated. It's up to you to set the stage for her. You set up the situation she needs to succeed even at small tasks so she can be rewarded and gets onto the idea of training time. Don't push ahead too fast. Stay at her level until she's solid there and then inch your way up. If she absolutely cannot pay attention in a class, it's not doing her any good. Get her behavior more solid at home first and then go from there. It will take a while for her to get use to a new way. But after a week or two, you'll find that she's enjoying her learning so much more and she'll want to continue. Always stop a "sesson" on a good note, doing something she's good at, while she's still having fun.

Have you looked into clicker training? It sounds perfect for this dog. It's a lot of fun and very effective.

http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm

I also highly recommend the books, Culture Clash, Don't Shoot the Dog, The Power of Positive Training, The Other End of the Leash. There are other good books too. But Culture Clash is the best to start with IMO. It will really help you understand your dog.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

The first thing I would do is stop using corrections completely. From what you're saying, they are CAUSING aggression. Next, I'd be very, very strict with her. And absolutely no e-collar, I think that'd probably cause more aggression.

I agree with everyone saying a good relationship is the foundation of a well-behaved dog. I know the reason my dogs are so well-behaved is mainly because of our relationship - they know I am the boss and what I say goes. Daily training helps out with that, but our relationship is the main reason.

 

[MomOf7]

mom - no offense, but again - how is someone going to use an e-collar to MOTIVATE a dog, or to stop it from attempting to bite a person?

how is using an e-collar going to make roxy feel more comfortable with strangers?

some of us HAVE used e-collars, HAVE been to seminars, HAVE trained with the big names and their disciples - and i still dont see HOW you are going to use an e-collar to get roxy to stop snarling at people and to make her want to work for you.


personally, i wouldnt trust a professional that repeatedly put me in a position where my dog tried to snarl and bite people.

No offense taken.

From my point of view and i could be wrong but it seems as though the trainer is going to take a few steps back and go to basics again when introducing the collar. If not I would worry. I never once said the collar is going to solve these problems. What I was getting at is we cannot possibly know what this trainer has in mind exactly for the collar. I believe theres alot of assuming going on here.
E-Collars are only used to reinforce commands the dog already knows. Yes they can be motivating to a dog. Not the kind of motivating you are thinking of though. With the E-Collar the dog is in charge of the stimulation. It motivates the dog to perform thier tasks dutifully. Much like how a prong collar is used.
Roxy,
If I were you before you dismiss this type of training talk in depth with this trainer on how she plans on introducing the collar and what role it will play in the training of your dog.
Your trainer I am assuming has trained many many dogs in her lifetime. If you do not trust her then you need to quit with her and seeing how there are only 2 trainers near you and the other one you dont trust either your going to have to consider traveling or doing this yourself.
Having a trust relationship with your trainer is a must. If you question something you should take those questions and concerns directly to that trainer. JMO

 

[silverpawz]

Wow, I don't check a thread for most of the day and it turns into four pages long!

First, get a crate for the dog. Use the crate. Be one one with the crate. The crate is your friend.

Seriously, being restricted from certain areas is great but it's not the same as being confined to the crate. A dog like this NEEDS to be confined for periods of time even while you're home. Personally if she came to me for training she'd be in that crate unless I'm working with her, exercising her, or taking her out for potty breaks.

You need to completly change the way you interact with her if you want her behavior to change as well.

How would I build a relationship with her?

1) Take away all her privledges. No free run. No furniture EVER.

2) Stop giving her free attention. This is a big one. It's so easy to pet the dog without even realizing we're doing so. Instead make her sit, or lie down or give a paw or do something to earn that attention from you. Love on your dog as much as you want but stop giving it away for free. She'll value it more if she has to earn it.

3) Do a dozen downs a day. Down can be a submissive postion for a dog. Practice it every day at random, not just in training sessions. If she we're with me she'd being doing a down for EVERYTHING.

4) Teather her to you. If she's out of her crate she's tethered to you. What does this do? Makes it so she has to follow you everywhere and gives you a chance to interact with her on a better level. You are in control. You can easily ask her to sit or lie down every time YOU stop or sit somewhere. Going over to the sofa? Ask her to lie down next to you. Sitting at the computer? Ask her to lie down next to you.
It doesn't matter if this is what she would be doing anyway if she had free in the house, what matters is that she's now doing it on your terms.

5) Stop putting her in situations that she is clearly telling you she's not ready for. So she doesn't want people to pet her. She's not a happy go lucky golden and she may never act that way. And that's okay. Is it alright for her to snark at peple? Of course not. But I would focus more on getting her to look to you when she's uncomfortable than forcing the issue of her being touched by strangers. Is stand for exam a life saving exercise? Do you NEED to teach it? I don't think so. Competitvie obedience is a game. Nothing more. If your dog isn't cut out for the game, she's not cut out for it. Simple as that.

6) If she ignores a command of yours follow through on it and make sure she obeys. I don't think you should cut out collars corrections completly. I think you should be able to correct your dog without her getting grumbly with you. If she won't sit, make her sit. If she won't down. Make her down. How you apply corrections, physically and with your body languge will determine if she snarks at you. Snarking dogs are not taking you seriously. It's the doggie equiviallnt of giving you the finger. If you don't know how to apply corrections the right way find another trainer who can show you.

7) Be fair with her. Reward her happily when she does something right, and tell her consistantly what behavior is unacceptable. Than stick with your own rules.

You CAN earn her respect. It doesn't have to be a hard thing to do. It just depends on how far your willing to go to earn it, and how much you're willing to change your outlook on what dog ownership should be like.

 

[Doberluv]

The trouble with aversives, no matter how mild, they are making a dog do something to avoid something. It tends to shut a dog down in many cases. If you are already having difficulty motivation your dog, this is a sure fire way to make training even less fun for her. I much prefer a dog who does something to earn a reward. This pushes a dog forward, gives momentum to training. The dog is much more eager to learn and work because it is earning a paycheck and not concerned about something that you're going to do to it or intimidated into doing something or else.

 

[Tobysmom]

I didn't have time to read all replys so I don't know what all been said. If I were considering using an e collar I would first try it on myself just to see what I am about to subject my dog to. Honestly that is truly what I would do if it were me.

 

[Doberluv]

I think with making her earn everything she likes and needs, working on skills at home and making it worth her while, she WILL begin to respect you. When you provide all of her resources, this is what puts you in the leadership position. After some time, she should come around and not be snarky at you for doing things, but you also need to desensatize....gradually get her use to things by reinforcing baby steps or portions of procedures. You can't just take one problem like growing, and fix it right there on the spot. Corrections will likely make her worse. Start turning things around within her daily life...structure, lessons which are worthwhile to her etc. Make her look up to you and work in order that she gets to live. LOL. ie: eat, affection, attention etc. This will put you in charge and she will trust you more. If you turn on her with harsh punishment, you'll ruin the relationship. I don't know how sensative this dog is, but collar yanks can undermine the working relationship you have with your dog if they're harsh. If they're not, they don't do anything but confuse the dog. What do you suppose a collar yank communicates to the dog? That she's doing something "wrong?" What? How does one know that the dog knows something and even if she does, what if something in the environment is more interesting? It's not her fault. That's not her value system or morals to do something that isn't rewarding to her. Dogs do what works period. It's just the way they are. It's not fair to punish a dog for being what they are.

 

[doberkim]

i have used the collar on myself - its not the collar i object to. the trainer suggesting she use the e-collar doesnt actually have any personal experience with it - she has no idea how it would be used, i would imagine (im not quite sure she knows much about any other method of training, period from her past responses to things like clicker training or positive methods of training).

 

[Roxy's CD]

Having a trust relationship with your trainer is a must.

Mom- That's a very good point. I trust her, but sometimes think she expects more out of Roxy, too fast. She is very proud of Roxy... She likes to "show us off" to other people who compete. I think I'm just going to tell her, I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to try purely motivational. And still go to lessons with her. My trainer has worked wonders with Roxy and after understanding how hard some of the CDX or UD events are, I'm amazed as well.

silverpawz- That's exactly what I needed. A point by point instructional post! LOL.

I did tether her to me today. She followed me even after she got a yummy raw bone. It went well.

Thank you for that advice Exactly what I was looking for.

Doberluv- I agree in the sense: I don't want ROxy to comply because she's afraid of getting corrected. I want her to comply because I asked her. Period. That's why I think I'm going to stick with a purely motivational method. No more leash corrections, but some verbal "direction" followed with plenty of praise and treats.

Thank you for all of the replies. I'm feeling a bit better after speaking with the doc. It's nice to get some encouragement seeing as I really am trying so hard to do the "right" thing. It's just so hard when everyone has their own "right" thing.

I think, from looking at the different methods that I used training Roxy without knowing, motivational is the first one I should give a shot. It's worked with teaching her more complicated things, and she really enjoys them.

 

[silverpawz]

I just want to add that I don't think you should become the cookie dispenser.

Yes, use treats, reward her for excellant reponses with them but don't reward EVERYTHING. Only the really good stuff is deserving of a treat when the dog already knows a command. There's a fine line between rewarding a dog, and simply being a cookie dispenser. It should not be all about the treats for her.

(glad my last post was helpful. I'm sure you'll do great with her once you can establish a routine and ground rules and stick to 'em. )

 

[OutlineACDs]

-lots of positive with training (we already do this... what exactly is positive? She get's tonnes of verbal praise (physical she doesn't really enjoy getting rubbed excessively for praise), top of the line treats that are available to me...

The "she doesn't like to be touched" thing to me, is a dominant thing. It would be different if this was a high drive dog that simply didn't want you interfering with her working, but she is not. She does not accept pets as a reward because then she would be submissive, allowing you to poke and prod and touch her.

Follow Red's advice, and get a crate big enough for her. This sounds mean, but you really need to toughen up. It does not hurt her feeling that you will be locking her up in a crate. She is not looking up to you for leadership. If you are spending a decent amount of time exercising her (take her for a 2 mile bike ride) then it will not be a problem for her.