The Dreaded E-Collar *dun dun*

[Roxy's CD]

She likes to be touched by me, she does enjoy it. But it's not something she likes as a reward when we're working.

I am a softey when it comes to stuff like crating her..

I know it's not cruel, I don't know if I can bring myself to do it. I'd rather have her tethered to me all the time than have her crated.

I can poke and prod her and examine her myself with no issues whatsoever. But if we're doing something exciting like a go out, she is too amped up to even sit still to get a pet.

 

[Doberluv]

As far as being a cookie dispenser, you are when a dog is first learning something....a new skill or behavior. How operant conditioning training works is that you start out treating/rewarding each and every correct response. This is what makes the probability of repeating the correct response go up. When the dog is reliably giving you a correct resonse every time, you go to a variable reward schedule. This actually strenthens the behavior. So, if someone has some objection to giving treat rewards, they don't understand how dogs learn. If they say the dog will only work for treats, they aren't familiar with how learning behavior works or how a variable reward schedule works. If you want to learn more, here's a link for ya. http://www.brembs.net/operant/

I can poke and prod her and examine her myself with no issues whatsoever. But if we're doing something exciting like a go out, she is too amped up to even sit still to get a pet.

Sometimes a pat can be a reward to a dog. But what you're describing here in this example...the dog wants to go out and she wants that badly. She couldn't care less about a pat at that time, so instead of thinking about patting to reward her, think what does she want now? She wants to go out. That is her reward. She has to become calm and then she can go out.

It's like this: A dog is playing fetch and is one of those ball obsessed dogs. He brings the ball and is standing there staring at it and then at you. He can hardly wait till you throw it again. He brought it to you like he is suppose to. Do you think he wants a pat and back rub? Or even a treat at that time? No, he wants you to throw the ball again. It's all he's thinking about. So for a reward for bringing you the ball (if that's what you've been trying to teach him) you throw the ball again. Quickly. That's the reward in this case.

So, every scenario doesn't require the same reward. It depends on what the dog would like in that instance or situation. Treats are great for most things, when the dog is learning obedience skills etc. Dogs love treats. But there are instances where the dog is really thinking about something else and you need to try and see what it is he is geared toward right then and get creative.

 

[whatszmatter]

She couldn't care less about a pat at that time, so instead of thinking about patting to reward her, think what does she want now?

It's all he's thinking about. So for a reward for bringing you the ball (if that's what you've been trying to teach him) you throw the ball again. Quickly. That's the reward in this case.

So, every scenario doesn't require the same reward. It depends on what the dog would like in that instance or situation.

Everyone should pay attention to those statements, more true words have never been spoken

 

[silverpawz]

As far as being a cookie dispenser, you are when a dog is first learning something....a new skill or behavior. How operant conditioning training works is that you start out treating/rewarding each and every correct response. This is what makes the probability of repeating the correct response go up. When the dog is reliably giving you a correct resonse every time, you go to a variable reward schedule. This actually strenthens the behavior. So, if someone has some objection to giving treat rewards, they don't understand how dogs learn. If they say the dog will only work for treats, they aren't familiar with how learning behavior works or how a variable reward schedule works. If you want to learn more, here's a link for ya. http://www.brembs.net/operant/

I'm assuming this was directed at me? If so, please read what I posted again. Here's the important part, highlighted in bold. I was not talking about teaching a new command. I thought I was clear on that. Maybe I wasn't.

Only the really good stuff is deserving of a treat when the dog already knows a command.

 

[Doberluv]

Oh...sorry Silverpaws. I didn't read that carefully enough. I see what you mean now by good stuff....once the dog is doing it every time, reliably, then you can reward only the best....the tightest heals, the straightest fronts, the most prompt recalls.... and the dog will keep striving harder while the sloppier responses will fade away.

 

[Roxy's CD]

OK, so when I go back to the basics it's ok to treat her everytime. Good thing that was cleared up, LOL, I was worried for a minute.

Thanks for clearing that up as well doberluv, I didn't think it was a bad thing that she didn't like to get a pat as a reward but one of the posts kinda made me think that it was.

Roxy does enjoy being cuddled, but at school for a reward, she doesn't like it. Depending on the activity, verbal praise or treat, or sometimes, just sometimes she does enjoy a quick pat on the top of the head.

On our walk last night, (I was alone) neither of them had their voldhartds on just plain flat collars. Roxy already respects the leash so it only took a few good rewards for her to realize... Hades on the other hand took awhile (he can be a very bad puller) but after 10 minutes of me just stopping,waiting for him to come front and sit, than he got a big reward he figured it out, kept watching me waiting for me to stop so he could come front.

So cross your fingers for me, and Tuesday, (I know doc told me not to expect a huge change right away) but we'll see how it goes! Hopefully we can go back to having fun all the time again!

 

[Doberluv]

just sometimes she does enjoy a quick pat on the top of the head.

That one caught my eye. LOL. In the book, The Other End of the Leash, Patricia McConnell, PhD compares primates to dogs. We, being primates do things the way primates do. And dogs don't understand a lot of it. She mentions in particular how dogs don't like being petted (in a quick pat, pat, pat) way on top of their heads, as opposed to a calm stroking. She says in fact, that they hate it because it's something coming down on them, reminiscent of being attacked. And if her dog is bugging her too much, coming around, being pushy, she'll give her what she calls the "happy slappy" on top of her head. The dog then, will go away. It's sort of a passive aggressive, mild punishment. LOL. Who knows....maybe some dogs have figured it out that it's our primate way of showing affection.

Hey...but it sounds like things are going to be coming along. You're doing fantastically.

 

[Roxy's CD]

ROFL

I just can't seem to get anything right!!!

I should've been more specific though, I don't just tap her, more of a stroke from eyes to back of neck! LOL. I usually do it, (even though I know I shouldn't) when I leave her on a wait or stay... It's more for me, so I can get one last touch of her velvety fur in! ROFL

 

[Doberluv]

No, that's not what I meant at all....that you aren't getting things right. It just made me think of that what I read in that book. But I see what you mean. And I think your instincts are right on with your dog. You know what your dog likes and doesn't and so go with your gut instincts and don't question yourself too much. Pay attention when you feel like you're seeing a red flag (like with certain trainers)...if you see or hear something that doesn't feel right, or you don't feel comfortable doing something to your dog etc... A few little tips or ideas which make good sense to you and that other people have used and think are a good help is always nice to read and see if you can incorporate those into your training. There are great books out there too. But it sounds like you are doing great. Being confident and decisive is so much a part of how your dog reads you and that's important too that she sees that you know what is best for her.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Interesting thread - I've enjoyed reading it! Haven't been around much. Real life has kept me too busy! *L*

Roxy'sCD, you've had a ton of great advice here. I agree that you need to re-assess your leadership with Roxy, and in the process make the rewards something that she really tries to earn. So often we ruin the rewards by giving them too freely .. at some point they just become expected and are no longer really rewards. We all fall into that trap at times (my dogs get a bit too spoiled on occasion too).

If a crate is more than you can handle, consider getting an exercise pen. I love my ex-pens and use them quite a bit. It gives the dog more room and less confinement but can be very effective for the leadership training. In addition, they're easy to fold up out of the way.

As far as the e-collar goes, based on your descriptions of your dog's behavior, I think it would be the wrong way to go. What you described was the use of the e-collar as a pure punishment. A punishment like that can really backfire on a dog and create a huge problem. I'm always uncomfortable with people who want to jump in and use a huge correction because they haven't figured out how to motivate the dog any other way (I'm talking about your trainer, not you). A good trainer should have a huge arsenal of motivating techniques available and shouldn't be depending on corrections to train. That's not to say that there isn't an occasional need for a correction, but from what you've described the leash corrections are already shutting your dog down. An e-collar would probably make it worse.

If you were training with me, I'd have you put a flat collar on Roxy and do a ton of fun behaviors. I'd have you re-establish your leadership (already described for you). I'd recommend doing very short training sessions. If Roxy can't handle three stands for exam, do one and go on to something else. I'd have you teaching her all sorts of fun tricks .. and teaching you to see all the trained behaviors as fun tricks, instead of thinking that obedience has to be so stern and formal. There are so many things that you can do to keep things fun for you and your dog. If you're getting frustrated, it's only going to stress Roxy. You both need to have fun.

By the way, I have an e-collar and I have studied the techniques and am using it on occasion. I REALLY think it's a travesty for people to use an e-collar for general training. A ribbon or title is just not worth it to me. But when it comes to serious behaviors, there is a time when a consequence may be necessary. In my case, I spent 18 months training and ran into a problem that was serious enough for me to research the e-collar. And then I used the collar as a negative reinforcement and not just as a punishment - and at the lowest possible working level. It was never used to just "zap" a dog to creative a correction.

Oh - and I train and show chows in obedience and agility. I understand completely the frustrations of dogs that have little interest in doing obedience maneuvers. The best thing I ever did was to learn to be enthusiastic, happy and positive with my dogs. I train at a high level of energy - but I train for very short amounts of time. Yesterday I went to a class at the training facility to get my dogs some exposure in working around other dogs (I just wanted to work on the outskirts of the class, which they allow me to do). I spent less than ten minutes with each dog. We ran through a few things and then I ran them back out to the van. I get much better results in a few short sessions a day than I do in one long session.

My last bit of advice .. spend some time just observing your dog. See what makes her really tick. See what motivates her. Try doing some behaviors in your home without a leash or collar - just use your happy voice, lots of encouraging praise, and then maybe a run to the fridge to find a special treat when she does something for you. Ask for something simple at first! And then after giving her the treat just wander off and do your own thing again. Keep in mind that small bursts of training are very effective!

Good luck to you -

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Roxy's CD]

Thanks Melanie

I decided officially that her training will go back to purely a flat collar. NO MORE leash corrections. It's going to be hard to train me than her! LOL, All I've ever known, (I've only had this one trainer since November) is, the dog lags while heeling, LC, the dog doesn't sit immediately LC, the dog doesn't come right away LC.. etc.

You can see where that goes. I didn't know any better, and now it's kind of second nature.

I got the best treats available, Zuke's Mini-Naturals Salmon, and I haven't opened the bag. This Tuesday coming will be the deciding factor on whether or not it will motivate her.

Roxy's motivation at home doesn't involve leash corrections because she's off leash. If she gets a correction it's a low "wrong" and than I'll show her what I wanted. At home food is a good motivator and sometimes a really rough rub if you know what I mean. Hades and Roxy also compete for attention, so I find her working harder for that treat, or that eye contact and even that "YES!".

THe pen sounds like I might be able to do that.

Thanks Melanie

 

[Doberluv]

Lyric was a terrible lagger when heeling. And sometimes a terrible forger. He'd either be ahead of me or behind me. LOL. I hadn't used my clicker for a long time and decided to get it out. I reminded him what the click means.....a yummy treat is on it's way. LOL. So, we'd start heeling and I'd lure him a little bit. When he was in the right position or even close to the right position, I'd click and treat. Then I stopped clicking for being close, but waited for him to get just right. When he lagged, nothing....no correction, no nothing. I'd just keep walking. It didn't take but one session for him to figure out where he needed to be to get the treat. The clicker sound let him know that what he was doing, going right along side me with his shoulder even with my left leg, is what got him the treat. I would treat very often, every other step as long as he was in the right position. Gradually, I spaced out the treats. I didn't use a collar or leash when working him. It prevents you from confusing him with accidental yanks or the leash swinging around. It leaves it ALL up to the dog to figure it out. Later I put the leash on and did it with that. But if there's nothing to pull against or dangle around, it's less confusing to the dog, I think. I started him out as a puppy using no leash for a lot of stuff. It just makes it easier when you put the leash on. He already knows what to do and you haven't forced him to do anything. He's been the one to do all the work. LOL.

And Melanie is soooo right. It has to be fun because really, when you think about it, what could be more boring than heeling, sitting, staying. LOL. You have to brainwash the dog and yourself to think, "Hey, this is going to be a blast!" The dog feeds off of us so much. It's like, "Oh...well, she's happy, this must be fun. OK...I'll give it a whirl." LOL.

 

[Roxy's CD]

This clicker thing sounds OK. Months and months ago my trainer just showed me how it worked and didn't make it sound too appealing.

I know she has one, maybe I could swindle it off her seeing as she doesn't use it! LOL

 

[Doberluv]

OH dang. You're so fast. I went back to edit....a little blurb at the end. Yes, a clicker is fun, fun, fun and so precise....no question at all for the dog as to what he just did which earned him/her the treat.

 

[Doberluv]

http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm

Read this through so you get all the ins and outs. It's really important that you prime correctly and that you are careful with your timing. You have to always treat after the click, no matter what. One time Lyric made a terrible boo boo and by accident I clicked. I had to treat and fix the problem later. You will loose the meaning of the click if you don't follow right away with a treat. Once the dog knows the behavior and what the cue word means and is doing it regularily, you stop using the clicker for that behavior. It's only to teach what it is you want the dog to do and what he did was right. After that, it becomes obsolete or unnecessay.