The dog musing/vent thread

[Elrohwen]

Personally, I find it far easier to bond with baby animals. My first rabbit is kind of an a**, not at all interested in interacting, but I adore him because I got him as a baby. Hannah is sweet, cuddly, and lurves people, but it took me a while to bond with her and I very much wanted to give her back a few times (and even emailed her previous owner about taking her back). I remember not calling her by her new name because I couldn't deal with things and didn't want to keep her - I called her Merlin so long, despite knowing she would be Hannah, that to this day we mostly call her The Mer (in the most affectionate way possible). I think that's normal for many people. Baby animals are helpless and you expect them to be a ton of work, but it can be so much harder with an adult.

It was hard when we got Watson and I had no free time or sleep, but I adored him immediately, again because he was a baby. It's not fair to expect and adult dog to tug at our heart strings so quickly.

Stick it out for a while. Spend time with just her. I think it will work out. And if it really doesn't you will have given it a good try. But relax into the idea that it will be really not settled or ideal for a bit. Honestly, I have wanted to strangle Watson sometimes when we have been in a new place. He can be so obnoxious. But I know that's not him and he will be normal in a day or week, so I let it go. Just think of your new girl like that - she is adjusting and like any dog she will be annoying at first, you just don't have that bond with her yet where you trust things will turn out ok.

Eta: Hannah still bosses Otto around like crazy, and is a huge b*tch to him, but I also see them snuggle and enjoy each other so much. Watson's best dog friend growls at him constantly and they are adorable together. It is hard at first to see your baby get bossed around, but they learn to interact in their own way, and you learn to love the sassy personality.

 

[Locke]

That totally makes sense and it's good that you know that about yourself now.

I still can't tell yet whether it's the stress of another dog, or that (as bad this sounds) it's the stress of this dog. I can't have her out of her crate because she guards the couch, falling treats, ME - she's a negative presence in Astro's life so far and that's awful to me. Even when she's crated and I'm just walking Astro past to go on a separate walk she lunges and snarls at him now

That behaviour from a new dog would definitely prevent bonding and increase stress. That sucks, big time.

 

[SpaceMutt]

Elrohwen - that's true enough, it's hard not to love babies even when they're total brats and it's not accurate or right to think I'd feel the same way about a stressy adult as I would a fuzzy pup. I just wasn't expecting to feel quite THIS much difference.

And I hope I get ok with it. Honestly I'm pretty irrationally and ridiculously in love with Astro, I've never loved a pet like him and it definitely clouds me. My old cats and dog had a love/hate relationship and it was fine, even my horse of over a decade I could watch getting her butt handed to her when she got pushy and I was like "yep, that's what happens." But someone snaps at my wrinkly dude and I can feel my blood pressure rising. I do like sassy animals (like I said I do like terriers!) but Astro throws a huge wrench into everything. I openly admit that I partially got a dog for my existing dog, or at least for both of us to enjoy - I don't want a household where they mostly ignore each other.

Locke - yeah it totally does I'll be thinking she's cute or something and then she'll do something like that, and I just think STOP GIRLY I'M TRYING TO LIKE YOU

 

[Southpaw]

But someone snaps at my wrinkly dude and I can feel my blood pressure rising.

I get you on this. Juno is my girl through and through, and there are certain things Cajun does... that I would probably not mind if she were doing them to any dog other than Juno.

Cajun is not even "my" dog and not a dog that I wanted, I just live with her, but given that, I am super ridiculously involved with her. And there are moments where I think about that a little too much and could break down crying because of how much she takes away from my time with Juno. Majority of the time though, I'm fine with things and my new routine of "bring Cajun to the park - come home, throw her in the door, call for Juno - bring Juno to the park" has become second nature. I would LOVE if I could just bring my dogs to the park together and have them play, but if we haven't reached that point in 6 months, I'm not sure that we ever will... and I'm learning to accept that.

I don't know your dogs or your situation so I can't say YES, you will all find a way to adapt and live life together happily - but I just want to say I get where you're coming from and I hope things work themselves out.

 

[SpaceMutt]

I get you on this. Juno is my girl through and through, and there are certain things Cajun does... that I would probably not mind if she were doing them to any dog other than Juno.

Cajun is not even "my" dog and not a dog that I wanted, I just live with her, but given that, I am super ridiculously involved with her. And there are moments where I think about that a little too much and could break down crying because of how much she takes away from my time with Juno. Majority of the time though, I'm fine with things and my new routine of "bring Cajun to the park - come home, throw her in the door, call for Juno - bring Juno to the park" has become second nature. I would LOVE if I could just bring my dogs to the park together and have them play, but if we haven't reached that point in 6 months, I'm not sure that we ever will... and I'm learning to accept that.

I don't know your dogs or your situation so I can't say YES, you will all find a way to adapt and live life together happily - but I just want to say I get where you're coming from and I hope things work themselves out.

Thank you. You sound like you have reached at least a fairly calm and productive place on splitting time between your "favorite" and another dog, and I hope I do too. I hope things work themselves out. I think your routine is key, just getting into the "this is how life is now" swing.

I just gave them each a late night potty walk and put them to bed. Missy is still attacking him through the crate when he's not even near. Tomorrow is a new day though.

 

[pinkspore]

Brisbane's puppyhood was horrible enough to put me off puppies for life. Adult dogs fresh from the shelter with no manners are way, way easier to deal with than the little landshark was. I seriously have something approaching PTSD from raising him. Horrid little nightmare dog. Teethed for months on end and was either biting something or asleep. He was unphased by absolutely every method of stopping puppy biting, I finally resorted to keeping the house strewn with toys so I could cram one in his mouth ever time he opened it. *shudder*

 

[CharlieDog]

It's definitely not unusual!! You can decide to give it time, or if the stress is really that bad, you can return her and go back to square one of looking for a second dog.

I would personally give her at least two weeks. I've given every foster and every training in board client dog I've ever dealt with before saying "okay, this dog is not working here" or "I'm totally in love with this dog"

There was a chocolate labrador I knew that when she first started, I absolutely could not STAND HER. She was loud, she was pushy, she was entirely too bouncy, even Enzo would run and hide from her. But after about two weeks of working with her I adored that dog. Even though she could still be a complete jerk, I loved her anyway lol.

The only dog I've ever ever ever fit seamlessly into my life was Indy. Every single other dog the first couple weeks I was going "oh GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE" Even with puppies! And everyone loves puppies!!

And I'm totally not ashamed to admit it, but if a dog shows they're going to bark in their crate, I will immediately put a bark collar on them. If they're a snarler or lunger in their crate at other dogs being walked past, I will use an ecollar and set them up. They all learn that laying quietly in your crate gets you rewarded. Any other behavior is not acceptable. I know how to use an ecollar, and I'm not saying this should be everyone's strategy at all, but it's what worked when I lived in a multiple dog household, and had dogs coming and going, with an a*shole dog (Ozzy) who guarded his crate.

In a couple of months, I'll be dealing with multiple dogs in a house again, and I know it will be stressful at first, but Indy is good with everyone she's met for the most part, and it will all work out.

 

[SpaceMutt]

It's definitely not unusual!! You can decide to give it time, or if the stress is really that bad, you can return her and go back to square one of looking for a second dog.

I would personally give her at least two weeks. I've given every foster and every training in board client dog I've ever dealt with before saying "okay, this dog is not working here" or "I'm totally in love with this dog"

There was a chocolate labrador I knew that when she first started, I absolutely could not STAND HER. She was loud, she was pushy, she was entirely too bouncy, even Enzo would run and hide from her. But after about two weeks of working with her I adored that dog. Even though she could still be a complete jerk, I loved her anyway lol.

The only dog I've ever ever ever fit seamlessly into my life was Indy. Every single other dog the first couple weeks I was going "oh GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE" Even with puppies! And everyone loves puppies!!

And I'm totally not ashamed to admit it, but if a dog shows they're going to bark in their crate, I will immediately put a bark collar on them. If they're a snarler or lunger in their crate at other dogs being walked past, I will use an ecollar and set them up. They all learn that laying quietly in your crate gets you rewarded. Any other behavior is not acceptable. I know how to use an ecollar, and I'm not saying this should be everyone's strategy at all, but it's what worked when I lived in a multiple dog household, and had dogs coming and going, with an a*shole dog (Ozzy) who guarded his crate.

In a couple of months, I'll be dealing with multiple dogs in a house again, and I know it will be stressful at first, but Indy is good with everyone she's met for the most part, and it will all work out.

It's interesting to hear that you use aversives for this and have success because honestly I am not against using them for this particular thing. But I generally don't use them at all for Astro because he shuts down sooooo easily (I said his name too harshly awhile back and it took him days to forgive me). So I am not that familiar with how to set up and use the tools.

Things are...not great. I made a few minor changes, put lil miss's crate in a more removed part of the apartment and put a blanket over it.

She screamed and wailed so much last might that I'm 99% sure a neighbor came thundering downstairs to tell me off. His loud footsteps actually made her hush up, so he never actually banged on the door, but I could hear him make the angry trek from his bed to my right outside my door. And then the trek back upstairs when after she'd been quiet a minute.

That's not really the problem though, there are tons of dogs in the building and some are arguably as noisy as her - the issue is her guarding. I'm managing the heck out of it and enforcing rules but it's ridiculous. When they play it's still excellent, they play very well together and that's mostly what they do during their very brief daily time together when not on a joint walk. But she now won't let him be near the couch, in the hallway, in the bathroom, or near her crate, unless I force her to. I am using a lot of tethering with her despite her wailing.

This morning I took her on a longish walk, and was feeling great about her because despite her noise last night, she leapt up and was super wiggly and happy to see me this morning and it's hard to fight that. The funny thing is that on walks she wants to meet and play with every dog and person. She also is learning quickly that she only gets let out of the crate when her butt is on the crate floor, she's quiet, and she's actually relaxed.

But then I brought her back, put her in her crate, took Astro out and leashed him up, and on our way out I discovered 1) in the past two minutes she'd figured out how to open the crate door, and 2) she was still not happy about him being anywhere near her crate because it had a chew in it (I'd put it in so she'd be quiet on my morning walk with Astro), and she put holes in my dog's face when he went to sniff.

I'm trying not to see red but...his mouth is bleeding. His cute little jowls, she latched on and he was crying and eugh. I was so furious I just grabbed her, got her off, and physically threw her in her crate (didn't hurt her, but I was pissed). Latched it. Prayed for the best. Went on my walk with Astro.

What do I find when we came back a few minutes ago? She's gotten out of her crate again and she's not letting Astro through the front door. Again, I was so pissed that I acted irrationally. I brought Astro inside, grabbed her by the collar and tossed her outside and shut the door; I knew she'd just hang outside the door and cry and that's what she did. I put Astro away so he'd be safe, took a deep breath and got her.

I am so exhausted with her. If she were a foster I'd have already told them to take her back and find another foster home for her. I want to work with her and her intelligence is impressive to me but at the same time I feel like I will need to use aversives and I'm not experienced in that, I don't know how comfortable I feel using equipment that I'm unfamiliar with. And since she's already stressed and brand new, will that have fallout?

 

[Airn]

It's interesting to hear that you use aversives for this and have success because honestly I am not against using them for this particular thing. But I generally don't use them at all for Astro because he shuts down sooooo easily (I said his name too harshly awhile back and it took him days to forgive me). So I am not that familiar with how to set up and use the tools.

Things are...not great. I made a few minor changes, put lil miss's crate in a more removed part of the apartment and put a blanket over it.

She screamed and wailed so much last might that I'm 99% sure a neighbor came thundering downstairs to tell me off. His loud footsteps actually made her hush up, so he never actually banged on the door, but I could hear him make the angry trek from his bed to my right outside my door. And then the trek back upstairs when after she'd been quiet a minute.

That's not really the problem though, there are tons of dogs in the building and some are arguably as noisy as her - the issue is her guarding. I'm managing the heck out of it and enforcing rules but it's ridiculous. When they play it's still excellent, they play very well together and that's mostly what they do during their very brief daily time together when not on a joint walk. But she now won't let him be near the couch, in the hallway, in the bathroom, or near her crate, unless I force her to. I am using a lot of tethering with her despite her wailing.

This morning I took her on a longish walk, and was feeling great about her because despite her noise last night, she leapt up and was super wiggly and happy to see me this morning and it's hard to fight that. The funny thing is that on walks she wants to meet and play with every dog and person. She also is learning quickly that she only gets let out of the crate when her butt is on the crate floor, she's quiet, and she's actually relaxed.

But then I brought her back, put her in her crate, took Astro out and leashed him up, and on our way out I discovered 1) in the past two minutes she'd figured out how to open the crate door, and 2) she was still not happy about him being anywhere near her crate because it had a chew in it (I'd put it in so she'd be quiet on my morning walk with Astro), and she put holes in my dog's face when he went to sniff.

I'm trying not to see red but...his mouth is bleeding. His cute little jowls, she latched on and he was crying and eugh. I was so furious I just grabbed her, got her off, and physically threw her in her crate (didn't hurt her, but I was pissed). Latched it. Prayed for the best. Went on my walk with Astro.

What do I find when we came back a few minutes ago? She's gotten out of her crate again and she's not letting Astro through the front door. Again, I was so pissed that I acted irrationally. I brought Astro inside, grabbed her by the collar and tossed her outside and shut the door; I knew she'd just hang outside the door and cry and that's what she did. I put Astro away so he'd be safe, took a deep breath and got her.

I am so exhausted with her. If she were a foster I'd have already told them to take her back and find another foster home for her. I want to work with her and her intelligence is impressive to me but at the same time I feel like I will need to use aversives and I'm not experienced in that, I don't know how comfortable I feel using equipment that I'm unfamiliar with. And since she's already stressed and brand new, will that have fallout?

I would not be okay with keeping a dog like that. I'm one of the few here that has only one dog but I if any dog bit mine like that, the dog would be out ASAP. (I also have a very soft dog.) It would suck to see all your hard work with Astro get wasted. Maybe one dog is best for now?

 

[DJEtzel]

I'm not sure why you aren't doing a two week shutdown with a dog that's showing so many off behaviors - to the point of harming your dog? By letting her do them, she's self reinforcing herself.

 

[Laurelin]

It may just not be the right fit. I am personally willing to work with some things and not with others. If I thought a dog I brought in would be dangerous with the little dogs then bye bye. There's some things I just don't want to deal with and crating and rotating is one.

That chi mix I had bit at Mia guardig me an the couch. and I could have dealt with that behavior but it was a very easily identified trigger and her reaction while inappropriate wasn't above the level I felt like I could work with.

I can deal with minor scuffling and displays and take a few weeks to months to work that out but putting holes in my dog would be a no. I can't deal with that because my dogs are so small.

 

[Elrohwen]

I would not be okay with keeping a dog like that. I'm one of the few here that has only one dog but I if any dog bit mine like that, the dog would be out ASAP. (I also have a very soft dog.) It would suck to see all your hard work with Astro get wasted. Maybe one dog is best for now?

I agree. I'm ok with some degree of bossing and guarding, but I wouldn't be ok with a dog biting and drawing blood on my existing dog.

 

[SpaceMutt]

I would not be okay with keeping a dog like that. I'm one of the few here that has only one dog but I if any dog bit mine like that, the dog would be out ASAP. (I also have a very soft dog.) It would suck to see all your hard work with Astro get wasted. Maybe one dog is best for now?

That was my immediate thought, just "you're going right back, lady!"

I put in a call to the shelter behaviorist. Left a voicemail and talked a bit to the front desk staff so they know what's going on. She did say that it sounds like it might not be reconcilable and if so to not feel guilty, which was nice of her to say but I still feel guilty as hell :/

Either way she's on serious lock down. I should've done it earlier. I filled three giant Kongs so everyone will be occupied while I sort out a plan. I think the immediate things to teach are A) get off the couch, B) go to your crate, C) some exchanges (she's stared guarding bully sticks like woah), D) a rock solid "leave it". I'll play some crate games tonight with her and work on "leave it" more. Even if I don't wind up keeping her the dog needs work.

I checked out Astro's mouth more and the bite was pretty shallow, he's a big crier so it sounded worse than it was was. Thank goodness. I had to really search to find where she actually got him, I found the bite right away afterwards of course but now that the dust is settled it seems to mostly have been a big display on everyone's part.

Why does every dog I like at a rescue and adopt wind up being a guarder? Why?!

 

[SpaceMutt]

I wanted to address everyone because I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts and time to reply during all this turmoil.

I'm not sure why you aren't doing a two week shutdown with a dog that's showing so many off behaviors - to the point of harming your dog? By letting her do them, she's self reinforcing herself.

Honestly? I have been catatonic with stress. I've done a lot of retreating to my room and hanging out with Astro in there crying. I have had no brain and no sense for the past 72 hours. I have known what I need to implement but when I get truly panicked something stops me from doing what my brain knows.

It was the wrong decision. I know that. This entire thing has been such a failure on my part.

She's in her crate (reinforced with a tie now so she really can't unlatch it, unless she's Houdini). I really wasn't expecting her to bust out of her crate, she was supposed to be confined at the time of her biting him. They will not be interacting from here on out.

I agree. I'm ok with some degree of bossing and guarding, but I wouldn't be ok with a dog biting and drawing blood on my existing dog.

It may just not be the right fit. I am personally willing to work with some things and not with others. If I thought a dog I brought in would be dangerous with the little dogs then bye bye. There's some things I just don't want to deal with and crating and rotating is one.

That chi mix I had bit at Mia guardig me an the couch. and I could have dealt with that behavior but it was a very easily identified trigger and her reaction while inappropriate wasn't above the level I felt like I could work with.

I can deal with minor scuffling and displays and take a few weeks to months to work that out but putting holes in my dog would be a no. I can't deal with that because my dogs are so small.

Yeah. I've been thinking about whether I can deal with it or not, and I'm just in such a stress haze that I don't know what I think or feel about anything. I have such a hard time being active and logical when I'm this stressed, that's why I called the shelter behaviorist, I need to talk to someone in person.

I'd be sick if Astro was a small dog, I understand. Fortunately he's got 5-9 pounds on her and seems no worse for wear. Honestly he's such a dope he wants to say hi to her and play no matter what she's done to him, he doesn't get it. He's used to having dogs bite his jowls too hard though, pretty much always happens (they're too tempting for most dogs during play), and he just cries loudly to get them to stop so they can have fun again.

I wish they hadn't gotten along so well at the shelter. I feel so stupid and naive and hopeful for basing my expectations and judgment on that. They actually each took an end of a rope toy and played, and I took things from her as well to see if she'd guard them. And for awhile they played really well at home too, that's part of why I let them interact sometimes with supervision in the house (never with toys though). When they played they were great, it's down time that starts the trouble.

 

[Eleonora]

Thinking we should start the Trick of the Week threads up again, what do you guys think? Any tricks you want to do?

My friend noticed these messages. She is possibly interested in it, if it's something she can do with Lotta. Lotta doesn't know how to take and drop on cue yet. My friend has tried to teach them to her. So, she can't for example ask Lotta to hold an object in her mouth because she might steal it. :rofl1:

Since my friend hasn't taught jumping tricks to Lotta yet, those behaviors seems to be too difficult for her :

Oh, maybe a variety of dog catches? Japanese dog catch, that swirly one where you catch them by their belly and twirl them... (I don't know the name). I've been planning on re-visiting those forever but keep getting distracted.

So, have you thought yet what kind of tricks they could be?

 

[pinkspore]

I used to pull dogs from the Los Angeles County shelters, get them vetted, and then put them on a plane headed for the rescue in New York that was paying for the whole thing. Part off this involved getting them comfortable in a crate in a week or less, which could be tough. For a few of them I have had to get really creative. The best alternative crate training method I've found is to make the crate the only comfortable place to be, restricting the dog to a small area with a hard floor, and then just standing there and waiting for the dog to choose to go in. Once they are in, I stand in front of the open door and body block them in until they give up trying to leave and lay down. Take a step back, return if they get up, and keep inching back as they give up on getting out and accept their fate. Sometimes it takes a couple of hours, but so far I've always ended up with non-panicked dogs in crates.

I did whack the top of Brisbane's crate a couple of times when he was a baby puppy. After a week of sleepless nights filled with hysterical screaming I lost it and banged on the top, and he stopped. One more shriek and one more bang, and he was done. The next night he willingly went in and curled up to sleep, and he has been a crate-loving dog ever since.

 

[Laurelin]

Don't be too hard on yourself. It sounds like a very stressful situation and its obvious you are trying to make it work. I'm sure you will make the best decision for the three of you. Don't beat yourself up whatever way it turns out.

 

[*blackrose]

So far this trip has reinforced two things:
1.) I really, really need to work with Abrams and his "bark at all the people" issue. I've been lazy as once he's over the initial "new place" sensation he's fine, and if we're in a public place actively doing something (like the beach playing water fetch) he will literally ignore someone walking in touching distance without any issue. But the "new place" barking really needs to be addressed.
2.) My dog is as intimidating as hell. Michael had him out for a potty break while I went to the restroom, and when I approached them after, Abrams didn't recognize me from so far away and just saw a person walking directly at him with a purpose in a new place and his mind went in to bark mode (deep alert barks and alert posture while trying to advance towards what he's barking at, until he greets said thing). Had I not known that a.) He is a friendly dog and b.) He's my dog, I would have been avoiding the immediate area. He is not a clumsy puppy anymore. Just wish he wasn't so loud. Dumb dog.

Plan to do LAT exercises from here on out and hope it makes a dent in his thick head, but this is something he's done from one extent to another since he was 9 weeks old, so I have a lot of self reinforcement and habit to wade through. Need to work on him reorienting as soon as he leaves the vehicle, too.

*breaks out Control Unleashed*

 

[SpaceMutt]

I used to pull dogs from the Los Angeles County shelters, get them vetted, and then put them on a plane headed for the rescue in New York that was paying for the whole thing. Part off this involved getting them comfortable in a crate in a week or less, which could be tough. For a few of them I have had to get really creative. The best alternative crate training method I've found is to make the crate the only comfortable place to be, restricting the dog to a small area with a hard floor, and then just standing there and waiting for the dog to choose to go in. Once they are in, I stand in front of the open door and body block them in until they give up trying to leave and lay down. Take a step back, return if they get up, and keep inching back as they give up on getting out and accept their fate. Sometimes it takes a couple of hours, but so far I've always ended up with non-panicked dogs in crates.

I did whack the top of Brisbane's crate a couple of times when he was a baby puppy. After a week of sleepless nights filled with hysterical screaming I lost it and banged on the top, and he stopped. One more shriek and one more bang, and he was done. The next night he willingly went in and curled up to sleep, and he has been a crate-loving dog ever since.

Thanks for the ideas. For the sake of my lease and my sanity, her wailing-it-out-in-the-crate time is finite.

Don't be too hard on yourself. It sounds like a very stressful situation and its obvious you are trying to make it work. I'm sure you will make the best decision for the three of you. Don't beat yourself up whatever way it turns out.

Thank you. I know I'm being such a babbly oversharing raw nerve right now. I'm trying to remind myself that everything will be ok one way or the other.

 

[pinkspore]

I honestly don't know how other people tolerate letting dogs bark it out in the crate. This has never worked for me. Like, how many hours of barking does it normally take before they get it? How many sleepless nights of nonstop screaming? A week? More? I guess all of my cases have either adapted right away or had full-blown panic attacks, nobody has barked themselves to silence yet.