Spay/Neuter ALL the time?

[doberkim]

in conformation, yes. but we're not talking about conformation. we're talking about weight-pull. and it weight pull it doesn't matter what the dog looks like as long as they pull the weight, which means, no, they don't need to be intact.

and no offense, but can someone who has actually done weight pull tell us how much advanced training is necessary for pulling? as compared to a dog competing in utility obedience, or working towards their MACH?
do the dogs need to know directionals? does the dog work off leash away from the owner? does the dog need to deal with distraction and ignore them? does the dog interact with other dogs and need to ignore them? does the dog need to obey with the owner out of sight?

this isnt to discount the physical nature weight pulling takes, or the training it involves, or the fact that you need to have a dog that will pull even when something isnt moving.


but then comparing that to a dog that must heel off leash, work at a distance from the owner, use scent discrimination, jump, ignore other dogs off leash when th eowner is not present, and work in a situation in which it could easily choose to NOT work and leave the ring, etc - i don't think the two are comparable.


mach 1- can you share with us what you have accomplished with your dogs besides allowing them to accidentally reproduce?

 

[Mach1girl]

I have heard enough ignorant "cut downs". The remarks about accidental litters has gone far enough!

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)
The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.

Oh and by the way, it depends on the CLUB whether or not the dog can be altered. The club that comes here you cannot have an altered dog for WP, some clubs sanctioned by UKC allow, but alot do not. I found that out. Better to not have them done in case one that does not allow comes to town.

I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

And for the record, Dixie isnt half as aggressive as she once was............I strongly beleive the litter has changed her. She no longer acts a fool like she did. Do I trust her??Hell no! But she is changed enough to compete, and carry on her long line of WP wins in her family.Tis is one reason we got her.

So, again until you heva been there, dont judge me, if any other floosey came here with a similar situation you'd all feel sorry, but since I am who I am , you think I automatically do not know what is going on around me.
Dont forget I have had APBT for over 20 years and have always been highly involved with the breed. I have done rescue, I have attended shows, I have assisted with training, I have attended many obedience and agility classes, and trained my dogs in the areas.
I had never bred, and because of what happened you think you can constantly find every post that I make and turn it on me.
Not mentioning any names, but especially one individual in particular.......
I did not BYB, and I was not risking losing my WP dog due to a spay because of what happened, NOR was I going to tell my husband that the result of his loving gesture was going to be a litter of dead puppies.
So get over it and move on.

 

[weylyn]

MACH, who are these professionals you speak of? Club requirements aside...What professionals are saying a dog needs its nads or reproductive organs to sustain good drive?

 

[dogstarsleddogs]

OK, how about this- you show us where you have gotten your info that altered dogs dont have as much drive, and they must be not be altered to compete, and we will all forget everything and drop the topic. Deal Everyone?

 

[ChiBree]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk. Everytime I've signed that little piece of paper before a spay or neuter I thought "oh that will never happen to me" well.....guess what? I signed that piece of apaper again before her surgery and it DID happen Thank god my Vet is good and brought her back I think its a personal choice. Do what your heart feels is best for YOU and YOUR DOG. Good luck

 

[lakotasong]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

SMH. I at least hope you will watch your dogs better to prevent further accidental litters. It's a pity that you believe the reason you almost lost your bitch was simply because she was under.

 

[ChiBree]

My beliefs are MY beliefs and what I do is MY choice. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should do - didn't ask. I was addressing the person asking advice and just letting them know my experience.

 

[lakotasong]

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

My father was diagnosed with cancer about a year and a half ago. I've been there with him through chemo, surgery, the hair loss, sitting up with him while he cried because of how much pain he was in... My Uncle Tom died from cancer three months ago.

I truly am sorry that you have cancer. I would not wish any type of cancer on anyone.

However, all of that in no way excuses being irresponsible with your dogs and sputtering out misinformation.

I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

What seminars? Which professionals?

 

[doberkim]

lord, dont tell me now youre falling into the typical BYB excuse of you have (insert any disease here) and thats why you bred... im sorry you have cancer, but it has no reason, and is no excuse, for anything.

And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)

thats great. i have worked dogs up at the open level of obedience. i have trained, titled and shown, albeit of a limited nature due to time and funds (and again, not giving up my dogs for something better). i have had dogs that have wonderful attention, heads up heeling. knew heel, sit, down, finish (left and right). SFE, moving stands, down in motions, started on directed retrieves and go outs, targets, scent discrimination. started on tracking and doing scent pads and short tracks (we just never got to indicating articles), started on drafting. dog that went to shows with 1800 other INTACT animals, and did fine - off leash, in rings. my dog passed the CGC, passed a therapy dog test (though i could never certify him ethically, so i didnt pursue it), was the other dog in the CGC exam for two local dog clubs. he was started in agility basics, working on both sides, directionals, etc.

my dog was the first doberman IN THIS NATION to get a qualifying rally leg. he was one of the first THREE DOGS in the nation to qualify, PERIOD.
he would have been the first doberman in this nation to get his RN, except i didnt enter the last show that weekend due to vet school.


and youre telling me he was somehow less than yours because his BALLS were cut off and his magic wand shot blanks? sorry - you have absolutely NO BASIS for which to judge a working dog, PERIOD. you haven't shown that you understand what drive is, or how to harness it, at all - and that is a fundamental part of training a dog and understanding what to do with them, and how to get there.

The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.

ok - so again, how does this make wp somehow better and more in need of drive than obedience and agility? except for rally - i couldnt talk to my dog except for commands, no dancing, no singing, no coaxing. youre talking down about sports that you have NO IDEA what they entail. from what you describe, your dog needs very little training or control PERIOD for weight pull - just needs to PULL. and that is certainly NOT the case with obedience and agility.

 

[weylyn]

First off, I'll admit I have little to no experience in WP...BUT...one thing I remember that is stressed is that the dog doesn't train in prey drive. It can be unsafe, depending on how much prey drive the dog has.

"Not only is baiting against the rules but relying on your dogs prey instincts could lead to problems down the road"
Scot E. Dowd (Matrix Kennels)

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

I don't want to downplay the stress of almost losing your dog, ChiBree, but everything is a risk. Feeding your dog is a risk (choking/etc), letting your dog outside is a risk (getting stolen/lost/eating poison/etc), letting your dog play with other dogs is a risk, giving your pet vaccinations is a risk, giving your pet medications is a risk and the list goes on. You really can't say your dog will never have surgery, in her old age she might need it. *shrugs*

 

[tempura tantrum]

your dog needs very little training or control PERIOD for weight pull - just needs to PULL.

Being in Nordic breeds, I've hung around Malamutes for quite some time (briefly considered going into the breed)- and witnessed several weight pull competitions at specialty shows or supported entries. At least in Mals, the above quote is *absolutely* true. I watched dogs who had never so much stepped into a harness before, successfully complete a wieght pull. You really can do absolutely anything in your power (besides crossing the line), to get your dog to pull to you. It was great fun to watch- any sense of decorum the owner may have had before, was GONE when it was their dog's turn.

Nevertheless, I saw several very green dogs do it pretty much on instinct- there was minimal calling and cheering. The dog just did it. Intact and altered dogs alike competed...and I honestly saw no difference in performance. There were dogs on both sides that failed.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

How many dogs have you ever shown, Mach1? How many have you titled?

There are NO perfect dogs. Not one. Not anywhere. Not ever. Dogs are required to be intact to compete in conformation shows as it is a venue to evaluate future breeding stock. NO club (except maybe ADBA) requires any dog to be intact for working events.

I think it's very nice that you are finally out doing something with your dogs. However, your defensive attitude seems to really get in the way of your ever learning anything. Spay/neuter does not tend to lower the drive in most dogs. Many of us who have actual experience with this have stated this FACT to you.

Being involved in dogs in a MEANINGFUL AND RESPONSIBLE WAY means keeping an open mind and learning all the time.

I could show you a nearly 5YO bitch who has been spayed since she was 15 months old who is ANYTHING but a fat settled lacking in drive dog.

Your comments really do illustrate where you are at this time in your dog life, and where you are likely headed.

It would be much better for you if you were not quite so defensive. Slinging mud at those who have exponentially more experience than you do, and whose thoughts you should be paying attention to and learning from will be counterproductive for you in the long run, to say the least.

By the way, have you had the hips and elbows done on your girl yet? If I were doing heavy work like intensive weight pulling, I'd want to know what I was dealing with for the health and wellbeing of the dog.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk. Everytime I've signed that little piece of paper before a spay or neuter I thought "oh that will never happen to me" well.....guess what? I signed that piece of apaper again before her surgery and it DID happen Thank god my Vet is good and brought her back I think its a personal choice. Do what your heart feels is best for YOU and YOUR DOG. Good luck

Chibree, I understand your concerns, however I would urge you to speak to your vet about Pyometra and it's concerns.

This is always a risk for an intact bitch, it would mean a mandatory emergency spay on a bitch with an extreme infection at the same time.

There are ways to anesthetise her using gas only that might be safer.

I would discuss this with your vet, and possibly ask for a consult/referral with a veterinarian who specialized in high risk cases re: anesthesia.

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

My beliefs are MY beliefs and what I do is MY choice. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should do - didn't ask. I was addressing the person asking advice and just letting them know my experience.

While your dog was under for the c-section, why the hell didn't you have her spayed right then so that she WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PUT UNDER AGAIN??? And I agree it really is a shame that you will never put her under to be spayed because you are so afraid of her being put out. If she dies of Pyometra which they get from not being spayed, it will be a real shame... and guess what the only treatment is for it? To spay her!

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

And MACH you really have some issues. Maybe seek some anger management classes or something? No one brought up your cancer or your accidental litter EXCEPT FOR YOU! If you are just trying to get attention that is really too bad because no one is going to feel sorry for someone who disrupts a peaceful conversation.

 

[lakotasong]

While your dog was under for the c-section, why the hell didn't you have her spayed right then so that she WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PUT UNDER AGAIN???

Because then she can't pump out more puppies to sell and "give to family" ?

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Because then she can't pump out more puppies to sell and "give to family" ?

Well I mean, duh, was the vet dumb enough to not suggest this? Did you not think of it? I mean the incision is already going to be there from the c-section. You obviously are not going to breed her again unless you are not too bright if she had this much trouble delivering the litter on her own.

Well if she ever gets accidentally pregnant again, for the love of god spay her when they do the c-section.

 

[Mach1girl]

mach 1- can you share with us what you have accomplished with your dogs besides allowing them to accidentally reproduce

maybe if your dogs had better breeding, this wouldnt be the case. all i know is, i have a neutered male here who has drive coming out of his EARS. enough drive that it impressed a trainer who competes on INTERNATIONAL levels and places in the top three with his dog, on his first meeting of my dog.


ba-bye, dear. let us know when the next accidental breeding happens, ok?


didn't realize an accidental BYBer who learned 'everything there is' on online forums is 'Teh Queen' of all in WP.

lord, dont tell me now youre falling into the typical BYB excuse of you have (insert any disease here) and thats why you bred... im sorry you have cancer, but it has no reason, and is no excuse, for anything.



What was that???No one mentioned anything about my litter but me???

Man, wrong again.

It's been fun here and I appreciate all the help from the good ol guys and gals when my litter came, but it is not worth having every post that I make picked apart and changed around towards me.

This forum needs more rules, I belong to many and this is the only one that allows such nonsense.

I say if you dont know the breed, shut up. But hey, that is me.

Again, thanks a bunch to those who understand and understood. And to those who keep on, I hope you rot in hell for what you have done!

To make fun of what happene, your judgment day will come. And that's all cool.

Glad your grammpa had you there for him, maybe you understand alittle.

But I will not have the stress of having what happened thrown at me like it has for 6 months now.

One day you might end up with cancer.....and think back.

 

[dogstarsleddogs]

Can I make one more suggestion? Close this topic. This is starting to get out of hand. We've gone from legitimate reasons to alter/not alter, to attacking people. Come one everyone, why cant we all just forget the mistakes of others and move on?

 

[lakotasong]

Mach1,

You're just a BYB who doesn't like hearing the truth. It looks like you've run out of half-arsed excuses. Oh well, if you weren't leaving, I'm sure you would have just been banned for your mouth in that last post.