Spay/Neuter ALL the time?

[doberkim]

I haven't a ton of experience, however, I am learning as we speak. Dixie has been training for WP for months now, and the pups are starting. I have attended 2 aadr WP seminars which are taught by professionals, read all their literature and belong to their online group for continuing advice and mentor assistance.
I do know that an APBT that is s/n, shows a great deal of it's lack of drive compared to an unaltered dog in the wp ring.
You show AKC where maybe altering is allowed, the UKC DOES NOT allow altered dogs to show or compete in any sporting event.

Realy, and I dont wanna sound snotty, but lets face it, you need drive to compete in obedience??? Agility??Your agility dog is running through hoops-so to speak.

An apbt in WP depending on its size is pulling weight for a distance on either a sled or wheels in as short of time as possible.....that drive has got to be there for 1500lbs from a dead stop!

first off, wanna tell the ton of people who own speutered Pits about how their drive diminishes? elegy - has luce lost any drive since she was spayed?

sound snotty? what i see is someone who has dogs that havent competed in ANYTHING (im sorry, but training for a few months) telling those of us who HAVE trained, shown and titled, that our dogs dont need drive? please - if you can honestly think that, you are either dumber than we all thought, or really misguided. you clearly havent ever actually trained a dog with drive to heel, to do anything. what agility and obedience training have you done, to speak about this?

no offence - but coming from a bunch of pittie people (and i know some wonderful ones,but there are also some seriously misguided ones out there) - telling me that a dog needs its balls to pull, is a load of horse crap.

 

[doberkim]

And besides, the UKC doesnt allow it unless you just have a house pet...Isn't that what I said isnt that what I said in the beginning??

"Unless you are showing or using for sport, why not??"

I believe that is what I said.

If the UKC doesnt allow an altered dog to be shown or used for sport, then WTF is the argument for??

I simply stated a FACT, so et off the witch hunt and let it be!!!

UKC DOES allowed dogs that are neutered and spayed to compete.

you didn't state any fact at all - you stated a very limited opinion that you are trying to pass off as fact. there is a large difference.

 

[doberkim]

Ha! Never mind, clearly this is where the "experienced" verses the ones who just "have heard" clash......

experienced? just heard? you havent trained or titled in any of the sports you are bashing. all you have done is had one accidental litter and are training your DA dog (that you used to say couldnt do obedience, etc due to this) in weight pull.

so that makes you experienced?

But you all go on with your reasons and justifications.

clearly, as will you.

To each his own. But I am sorry, I am stickig to this due to what I have learned and followed, the drive is diminished enough that it effects WP.

maybe if your dogs had better breeding, this wouldnt be the case. all i know is, i have a neutered male here who has drive coming out of his EARS. enough drive that it impressed a trainer who competes on INTERNATIONAL levels and places in the top three with his dog, on his first meeting of my dog.

So like I said, no matter what reason I give or justification I give, you all are going to bash it anyway, simply because you dont like me. But I dont care, the OP doesnt sound as if she is into any kind of showing or work anyways, and I just answered her simple question.

it has nothing to do with me not liking you. it has to do with the fact that you have limited, if any, experience in training a dog or showing it in any sport, much less the ones youa re talking about. it has to do with the fact that you think your own misguided thoughts SHOULD be fact, and get angry when someone else disagrees.

And I am knocking agility and obedience because I have tried it. I love it dont get me wrong, but it doesnt take half of what is needed for a stronger competition. And you know it doesnt.

no, what i know is that you havent really tried it at all. you havent had a dog with drive heeling next to you. you havent had a dog thats a true worker want to do this day in, day out. you said so yourself on the website you took down, that your dog was too aggressive to even take outside, didnt you, to be around other dogs??

 

[doberkim]

Did I hit a personal nerve summitview??Gee, Im sorry!

Did you not hear me when I said I train my dogs??I am training and in the process of competing....as a matter of fact, Aug 5th and 6th will be a first for wp competition for Dixie and show for the boys.

I am keeping all my dogs intact to show and work them,if they were housepets, Id s/n them as I have my other 3 dogs.

Like I said, got better things to do now, so ba-bye.

ba-bye, dear. let us know when the next accidental breeding happens, ok?

 

[elegy]

first off, wanna tell the ton of people who own speutered Pits about how their drive diminishes? elegy - has luce lost any drive since she was spayed?

to be honest, i don't really know. she was spayed the day before i picked her up from the shelter. if she did, well, it couldn't have been much, because she's got tons and tons o' drive. i just wish i could direct and control it better.

and for the record, you CAN pull a speutered dog in UKC. you cannot in ADBA. which is dumb, but, well, it's ADBA....

edited to add: i cannot think why anybody would say obedience doesn't require drive. i can't imagine putting a low-drive dog in a ring surrounded by all kinds of excitement and noise, and then asking them to concentrate and heel off-leash and not get distracted.

 

[lakotasong]

A little story on the drive required for obedience and the spay/neuter aspect...

Windy was intact until she was about five (OFA Good, CERF Cleared but I decided not to breed her). She trained and competed in obedience (4H and AKC matches and trials) and was my 4H Demonstration dog for years when I taught classes. It took her six or seven trials to earn her CD. Her only drive is to get the best spot on the couch! She's not your typical Siberian, she has very little drive. I showed her intact and when she was spayed. There was no difference. She finished her title spayed. She just didn't really give a rat's behind about obedience. She did it for me, but she did not have the drive to do it competitively.

I rescued Arthur when he was about two years old. He was already neutered. He got his CD in three straight obedience trials with only a year of training. For his last leg, he earned a 3rd placement over BCs, GSDs and Goldens. People were astonished (Siberians are usually the comedians in the obedience ring). One of the clubs I'm in competes in a tri-county club sanctioned match. It is just for obedience club members and each club fields two dogs per class (Novice, Open, Utility). Arthur was asked to be one of the Novice representatives one year, and we had some tough competition! Arthur has DRIVE, and tons of it. He loves agility as well. He learned obstacles extremely fast. And *gasp* he's been neutered since he was a pup.

 

[rottnpagan]

I didn't realize an accidental BYBer who learned 'everything there is' on online forums is 'Teh Queen' of all in WP.

Very interesting to know.

 

[elle]

Yes, I do agree any typical dog that has been altered shows an amount of drive-in your bak yard or at the beach simply because they can last longer then you can, but overall when it comes down to it, they lack compared to an unaltered dog.

This statement alone really makes me wonder if you even understand what "drive" is!

 

[joce]

AnimalLoverCatRescuer, My vet thinks the risk of any bone cancers far outweighs the risk of testicualr or mammery cancer so when someone says they alter to not worry about cancer that kinda doens't make sence to me.

In my case we have had dogs with bone cancer,not dogs with any mammery or testicular cancers so the bigger danger to me seems to be the bone cancer. When my corgi had her lump on her belly the biopsy didn't even come back with a reccomendation to spay. He said many of the dogs that come in with lumps are not actually ones that are even affected by the dog being fixed or not.

I honeslty think most people should alter there pets. Not many people can 100% say they will not cause an accidental litter and thats always my biggest concern. You have to know if it did happen you would get it taken care of too and not bring more pups into the world. But I also think people should not be told this first heat bs. So many people are convinced if they don't get thier dog fixed right at six months it will die of mammery or testicualr cancer for sure and I don't think thats right. People should really be informed and not jsut fed that line.

About drive I don't really know. I know fixed males that still act like nuttballs when a females around. And my boy generally barely reacts and he isn't fixed. It jsut depends on the dog. I know I asked a while ago if most police dogs were altered but I don't remember if I ever got an answer.

 

[doberkim]

to be honest, i don't really know. she was spayed the day before i picked her up from the shelter. if she did, well, it couldn't have been much, because she's got tons and tons o' drive. i just wish i could direct and control it better.

and for the record, you CAN pull a speutered dog in UKC. you cannot in ADBA. which is dumb, but, well, it's ADBA....

edited to add: i cannot think why anybody would say obedience doesn't require drive. i can't imagine putting a low-drive dog in a ring surrounded by all kinds of excitement and noise, and then asking them to concentrate and heel off-leash and not get distracted.

it can be done - i did it with bowie it wasnt always pretty though - and yes, he did "quit" on me at one point once, but we went back and did better the next time.

jesus, just wATCHING a dog with drive do obedience thrills me - you can tell the ones that just ooze it out of their pores, it gives you chills. and yes, sometimes it makes me so happy that i have even a PORTION of that with rah...


like elle said, i wonder if people actually know what drive IS, or if we are talking about the same thing...

 

[SummerRiot]

About the "drive diminishing"...

Crosbie was hyper active when he had his "boys" dangling - he was ALWAYS checking the girls out whether they were in season or not..

Since hes been nuetered, the only drive hes lost is his drive for a piece of tail!!
He now focuses on my little sister when she handles him - where as before he had ADD big time.

Hes a WAY better working dog now that hes been altered.

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

AnimalLoverCatRescuer, My vet thinks the risk of any bone cancers far outweighs the risk of testicualr or mammery cancer so when someone says they alter to not worry about cancer that kinda doens't make sence to me.

In my case we have had dogs with bone cancer,not dogs with any mammery or testicular cancers so the bigger danger to me seems to be the bone cancer. When my corgi had her lump on her belly the biopsy didn't even come back with a reccomendation to spay. He said many of the dogs that come in with lumps are not actually ones that are even affected by the dog being fixed or not.

I honeslty think most people should alter there pets. Not many people can 100% say they will not cause an accidental litter and thats always my biggest concern. You have to know if it did happen you would get it taken care of too and not bring more pups into the world. But I also think people should not be told this first heat bs. So many people are convinced if they don't get thier dog fixed right at six months it will die of mammery or testicualr cancer for sure and I don't think thats right. People should really be informed and not jsut fed that line.

Hmm ok I should probably look more into that. As I have said before I am much more knowledgable on cats then dogs which I am still learning. I just go by what I have read and heard and talked about with people. I should do a little more research huh? But thank you I will definately look into that. I guess my main concern is from the animal rescue point of view in that I do it so much and always see BYBs and accidental litters. When adopting out dogs in a shelter situation, they will be altered as soon as the vet will do it so it can go to it's new home. So many people just aren't respoonsible enough to get it done and not let the dog get pregnant first. For people purchasing pure breds from breeders, I would hope that a responsible ethical breeder would have some sort of spay neuter agreement or at least talk to the buyers about it.

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

About the "drive diminishing"...

Crosbie was hyper active when he had his "boys" dangling - he was ALWAYS checking the girls out whether they were in season or not..

Since hes been nuetered, the only drive hes lost is his drive for a piece of tail!!
He now focuses on my little sister when she handles him - where as before he had ADD big time.

Hes a WAY better working dog now that hes been altered.

That makes sense too, less distractions...

 

[doberkim]

for the record, the study that involved neutering and bone cancer was NOT every breed - it ONLY involved rotties - and they are one of the most prone breeds to this type of cancer, PERIOD.
its not fair, nor scientifically sound, to apply that study to other breeds- in fact, that type of cancer is virtually unheard of in a dog under 75 lbs - and ive NEVEr heard of a case in a dog thats a smaller breed (like under 40 lbs).

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

for the record, the study that involved neutering and bone cancer was NOT every breed - it ONLY involved rotties - and they are one of the most prone breeds to this type of cancer, PERIOD.
its not fair, nor scientifically sound, to apply that study to other breeds- in fact, that type of cancer is virtually unheard of in a dog under 75 lbs - and ive NEVEr heard of a case in a dog thats a smaller breed (like under 40 lbs).

That is what I was kind of thinking but I didn't want to say anything. I read a few cases but the results were very general. Either certain breeds or only a few tested. For your average rescued pound mutt, I will always alter as early as possible, Can be done at 4 lbs. There may be acceptions for certain purebreds, but I cannot see bone cancer being something that effects every single dog out there from being altered a little early. Maybe more so with big boned dogs or something like great danes...

 

[doberkim]

i would have to pull the study up, but i believe it was rotties and they only found the difference in male rotties, too.

science can be manipulated to support people - and you need to be careful of that. chris zinks certainly has done the research, but it doesnt mean that chris isn't any more biased. what applies to canine athletes doesnt necessarily apply to pets (ie the under 1/4 of an inch they may not achieve in growth is really not noticeable in most dogs, especially pet owners).

 

[Mach1girl]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

 

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.
I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.
In the meantime, have fun in your disagreements with me.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

Wow I don't even know anything about you but you sure have some issues with people disagreeing with you.

 

[lakotasong]

Whatever guys, have it your persistant way.

LOL, I can just hear the valley girl "whatEVERRRR" now. How mature.

I know better, and it is not worth listening to those of you who do not perform in a real working condition preach what you THINK is right. Not worth it.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.
If I feel like it, Ill post the link.

I won't be holding my breath, because you won't find such a statement - because you're wrong.

But I will be willing to bet in a few months time my dogs will be pulling circles around your dogs, whom have setteled down and gained weight in their mid life s/n crisis.Lol.

Would you like some crayons? Or a nap? Or a diaper change? How about a pacifier? You really need to grow up and open your eyes. I feel sad for your dogs that you won't listen to the truth in many respects. They are the ones that will suffer for it.

 

[elegy]

If I feel like it i may search where the UKC states that in order to win a show or competition, the dog must be a perfect speciman of the breed, therefore unaltered.

in conformation, yes. but we're not talking about conformation. we're talking about weight-pull. and it weight pull it doesn't matter what the dog looks like as long as they pull the weight, which means, no, they don't need to be intact.