Show bred Malinois

[corgipower]

and yes corgi a grip on a sheep should be different than a grip on a sleeve in duration, but the courage under threat, the commitment to bite, the bite itself and the reaction afterwards are all very important to judge. Most doing the sports themselves don't even know what they're looking at and they should. how can you say you've done these sports, but can't see the similarity in testing the grip in protection sports and herding? If you truly understand what's going on?

How long a dog bites for or what he does with the grip is all training and a dog with what it takes to be a good herder in the type that GSD's and other herders were bred for, also make a good protection dog.

Because it's not an issue of grip. I've seen dogs that excel at herding and not protection. I've seen dogs that excel at protection and not at herding.

I have yet to see a dog grip stock.

Tyr did nip at the sheep, and I was quite impressed with his own ability to control his bite to not grip. And he wasn't trained to nip or grip sheep...it was his first time seeing stock.

Nyx was amazing when it came to running geese, and based on how she handled them, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see her do well in herding. But she's not even a candidate for protection training.

Ares was an amazing herder. But had zero interest in biting a sleeve.

You simply cannot watch a dog on a sleeve and assume he'll turn on when he sees stock. The only way to know what a dog will do with stock is to work them on stock.

OutlineACDs asked you:

Because you have done both?

I'm interested in the answer.

 

[release the hounds]

No, I don't herd, I do study it because i'm interested in the heritage and what went in to making up the breed of dog I love.

but at least I can see the similarities.

Nipping??? WTF is that? that's weak dog stuff right there. Never seen a dog "grip" a sheep? I take it you've never seen a dog do the herding on the type of sheep these herders were built for.

and yes, you CAN look at a dog and his commitment to the man and the grip on the sleeve and see what kind of dog you have. But you have to know what you're looking at. You CAN make decisions on what type of dog he'd be on sheep.

A test Max did and written about in his book was to put a dog in a field and ride horses around him and slowly creep in on him then have a horse charge the dog and see his reaction. Nothing to do with herding, yet testing everything that goes into this herding dog.

One of his favorite tests was to take a herding dog, and toss it in amongst a known ram that would test dogs and confront them, just to test how the dog confronted and the test was over when the dog GRIPPED the ram.

Herding geese huh? I'd love to see that. then i'd love to see this amazing herder on a group of 300 sheep and move them from pasture and along roads.

Either you're continuing because you truly don't understand the difference between nipping and "herding" a few animals around a pen, and that of a German and Belgian herder that is as much tending as herding, or you just like to try and oppose.

 

[DanL]

Corgi, it's 2 different disciplines that require certain traits that cross over between them, can we agree on that? Courage, drive, strong nerves- things you can't teach are all requirements for both venues. Of course some dogs will be better at protection bite work than herding, and vice versa. You select your dog based on your needs, you don't assume that any one you get will be able to do whatever you want, at least at higher levels.

As far as the Tervs go- I know of 2, a guy brought them down to a protection club I trained with. Both failed the initial tests, badly. No prey drive at all, no interest in engaging a tug, no interest or suspicion in a decoy that would pop out of a blind. I'd think that at least 2 of those tests would pass over to herding. The guy got himself a rescued Mal 2 weeks later. I stopped training there so I have no idea how the Mal did but I did see his eval and he passed easily.

 

[OutlineACDs]

No, I don't herd, I do study it because i'm interested in the heritage and what went in to making up the breed of dog I love.

but at least I can see the similarities.

Nipping??? WTF is that? that's weak dog stuff right there. Never seen a dog "grip" a sheep? I take it you've never seen a dog do the herding on the type of sheep these herders were built for.

and yes, you CAN look at a dog and his commitment to the man and the grip on the sleeve and see what kind of dog you have. But you have to know what you're looking at. You CAN make decisions on what type of dog he'd be on sheep.

A test Max did and written about in his book was to put a dog in a field and ride horses around him and slowly creep in on him then have a horse charge the dog and see his reaction. Nothing to do with herding, yet testing everything that goes into this herding dog.

One of his favorite tests was to take a herding dog, and toss it in amongst a known ram that would test dogs and confront them, just to test how the dog confronted and the test was over when the dog GRIPPED the ram.

Herding geese huh? I'd love to see that. then i'd love to see this amazing herder on a group of 300 sheep and move them from pasture and along roads.

Either you're continuing because you truly don't understand the difference between nipping and "herding" a few animals around a pen, and that of a German and Belgian herder that is as much tending as herding, or you just like to try and oppose.

Gripping sheep is usually considered unacceptable. Having a dog that has enough gumption to stand up to a stubborn ram is one thing. A dog with enough presence on sheep rarely has to bite. This is especially true with large herds. Large herds usually move rather well with a dog following quite a ways behind.

Moving cattle is somewhat different and a dog may have to head off a cattle and give a quick grip on the nose to turn it. Dogs should be able to gauge their stock and act accordingly, not darting in and out with their teeth. That is actually a tell-tale sign of a stressed out/unsure dog.

 

[release the hounds]

You really have no idea about this type of herding and what went into a Belgian or German herding dog do you?

and who says they run around hanging off the sheep all the time? nobody, but they do grip, and it is important.

 

[Artfish]

Certain breeds of dogs were bred around certain flocks/types of sheep. There are placid, dog-fearing sheep that organize nicely, and then there are pissy, dog-eating sheep that won't stay together worth a hoot. And there are breeds of dogs that do best with both. There are breeds for small flocks, breeds for large flocks, breeds that herd and breeds that tend. Breeds for sheep and breeds for cattle. Can they interchange? Within limits, absolutely and there will always be times where one breed would surpass another without question. You need to understand your stock and understand your dog.

It was mentioned a few posts back that agility is needed in a good herding dog and then a resulting comment stated that there are dogs good in agility that suck at herding. I think the poster meant that the dog needs to be agile, as in able to turn on a dime. Many show dogs cannot, either because of bulk or breeding for conformation showing.

Regarding grip, gripping a sheep is a necessary part of herding in the HGH style and a LOT can be told about a dog in its grip. Same in schutzhund. There are dogs that consistently take shallow bites, dogs that are "chewy," and dogs that just latch on and hang as sleeve jewelery. Then there are dogs that inhale the sleeve, regrip if the initial bite was bad, torque and fight the wearer of the sleeve, and use the grip as a means of control. What do YOU want on your precious flock of sheep- a dog that is afraid to go in and be the boss, a dog that will "Swiss cheese" the sheep, a dog that will allow the sheep to walk all over him, a dog that uses too little or too much force, or a dog that goes in swiftly and forcefully with just enough pressure to take control over the situation and releases once the understanding is made?

Even in videos one can get a feel for dogs during bitework. There are those that rush in, then slow down before making a booooring bite, those that won't out and will bite several times in quick succession and even snap at the face, then there are those that latch on and clearly put up a good fight and THINK through what is going on. Now that is GSDs and I imagine a corgi herds differently than a shepherd.

Aren't there some lines of border collies that are more "aggressive" than others? Ones that will go in and grip as necessary?

 

[corgipower]

No, I don't herd, I do study it because i'm interested in the heritage and what went in to making up the breed of dog I love.

:rofl1:
You've never done herding, yet know all about it? That's special. I wish I could know all about herding that easily.

Nipping??? WTF is that? that's weak dog stuff right there. Never seen a dog "grip" a sheep? I take it you've never seen a dog do the herding on the type of sheep these herders were built for.

Actually, wtf it is is overstimulation. The sheep started to split up and he lost some of his composure. As I said, it was his first time on stock.

As for gripping, the type of sheep and the style of herding that these dogs originally did isn't something that we do. I don't have a need for it, I don't have access to it, and for what we do, gripping is generally undesirable.

and yes, you CAN look at a dog and his commitment to the man and the grip on the sleeve and see what kind of dog you have. But you have to know what you're looking at. You CAN make decisions on what type of dog he'd be on sheep.

You can guess. But until the dog sees stock, you cannot know. He might look at sheep and think they're his new best friend and sit there and cuddle with them. He might look at sheep and think they're his dinner and kill them. He might look at sheep and be completely clueless and take a nap. He might decide to try to herd the horses instead.

Herding geese huh? I'd love to see that. then i'd love to see this amazing herder on a group of 300 sheep and move them from pasture and along roads.

Running geese is done quite often. Usually by BCs.

And the "amazing herder" wasn't trained or needed for moving sheep along roads. Again, it's not what we do, it's not what we need, and besides, he's a different breed of herder that is originally a cattle drive. And he did do an amazing job on a cattle farm flushing the cows out of the woods and helping drive them to the barn. And that was before he really had any training at it.

Yet if you put a helper in front of him, you'd think he wouldn't have it in him to work stock. He has prey drive. He also doesn't believe for one minute that somebody wearing a piece of jute on his arm is prey.

Corgi, it's 2 different disciplines that require certain traits that cross over between them, can we agree on that? Courage, drive, strong nerves- things you can't teach are all requirements for both venues. Of course some dogs will be better at protection bite work than herding, and vice versa. You select your dog based on your needs, you don't assume that any one you get will be able to do whatever you want, at least at higher levels.

Yep.

Both failed the initial tests, badly. No prey drive at all, no interest in engaging a tug, no interest or suspicion in a decoy that would pop out of a blind. I'd think that at least 2 of those tests would pass over to herding.

You'd think. But you could be wrong. As I said above,

Yet if you put a helper in front of him, you'd think he wouldn't have it in him to work stock. He has prey drive. He also doesn't believe for one minute that somebody wearing a piece of jute on his arm is prey.

The Way Herding Dogs Work

Another complication arises from the fact that most of the breeds today have long been bred for things other than herding. Many still retain varying degrees of herding ability, but they did not go unaffected by the lack of breeding focused on herding. A dog being bred primarily as a mild family pet may lack the desire and ability of its ancestors to stop a charging bull, preferring to spend a lazy day on the couch instead. A dog bred for the intensity of competitive protection work may not smoothly settle with sheep. This is not to say that there aren’t gentle, calm family dogs that can handle a tough bull or ram, or dogs with generations of police work behind them that will reveal the skills of their herding ancestry when given the opportunity. The point is simply that dogs are affected by selection, and it is to be expected that other factors may be affecting the tendencies seen in some herding breed dogs today. It is important to avoid the temptation, great as it can be, to excuse lesser talent with the claim that a dog simply has a “different breed style,†just as, on the other hand, it can’t be claimed that there is only one correct way of herding.

 

[release the hounds]

You can laugh at the guy that doesn't do herding. it's ok. I know what I know. I also know that you, who claims to have done herding, have no clue as to the differences in herding styles or what makes up the dog. it's made obvious by your statements.

ok, ever heard of Manfred Heyne? If not, look him up.

a few of his accomplishments was winning the HGH championships a few times.

Here's what he has to say about grip and herding

Another very important test is how the puppy grips the lamb. "Later two puppies are put with the lamb. The lamb then panics and wants to get back to the flock. It jumps up the wall. One puppy goes and just bites everywhere. That is not good. Which grip the puppies demonstrate is also interesting. It is important to know whether they use a neck grip, or a leg grip which is common in Lower Saxony and Middle Germany. It also depends whether the grip is dry, meaning full-mouth, or only with the front teeth. And it also depends whether they shake the lamb. This is all genetic. The same as with hunting dogs. So I have selected the dogs this way for decades."

Still don't think Grip is important?

 

[OutlineACDs]

So he put puppies in with lambs to see what they do and if they grip. Ok? Does he do this with full grown dogs? Doubtful.

Keep learning about herding. Yeah, all dogs are different. We get that.

 

[corgipower]

You can laugh at the guy that doesn't do herding. it's ok. I know what I know. I also know that you, who claims to have done herding, have no clue as to the differences in herding styles or what makes up the dog. it's made obvious by your statements.

ok, ever heard of Manfred Heyne? If not, look him up.

a few of his accomplishments was winning the HGH championships a few times.

Here's what he has to say about grip and herding



Still don't think Grip is important?

I do know the differences in herding styles. I don't however profess to be knowledgeable about HGH, because I have never done it. I've never trained in it, I've never seen it in person, I've never talked to anyone who does do it. I've read books, I've looked at websites, I've seen videos. That, IMO doesn't qualify me to tell anyone how it's done.

As I said...for what I do and for what I need, grip is generally undesirable. I also am well aware that not all herding disciplines and styles are the same. You however seem to think that all herding dogs grip.

 

[release the hounds]

We're talking about Belgian and German heritage herding dogs and I make a comment on how their herding traits made them perfect for protection dogs, and how testing them in modern sports, assuming the test is done legitimately, can preserve the working traits in the breeds, and you disagreed right?

i didn't know this was about the herding style you have a use for. in that case, then I'd say the herding style you use is of no use when considering whether or not a dog is worthy of breeding, as he isn't using or proving the traits that were used to turn the "type" into a breed in the first place.

 

[release the hounds]

So he put puppies in with lambs to see what they do and if they grip. Ok? Does he do this with full grown dogs? Doubtful.

Keep learning about herding. Yeah, all dogs are different. We get that.

well he doesn't do any of it anymore, sadly I think he passed away not too long ago.

But, no I doubt he tests a full grown dog this way, a full grown dog that is not trained and doesn't know what is expected of it could do too much damage. But you can bet your best herding dogs that full grown dog is expected to grip, go fast, be committed and control the ram or the flock and let go without doing damage. he is expected to do this under his own thought, not the direction of the shepherd, and control the flock mostly on his own. again, GRIP is important in these dogs, something you are trying to tell me isn't.

so, no this isn't just every dog is different.

I'd love to learn more about herding. It fascinates me how the traits carry over from discipline to discipline. I don't have the space, sheep, or someone to show me, I don't have time to reinvent the wheel. My regular job and the working dogs I work with now keep me more than busy enough. Some day I might get some just to see how it goes. I can't work dogs forever the way I do now. I might have to find something else to do to keep busy.


I don't intend on ever doing any of the AKC herding, I love the HGH herding style and what kind of dog it selects for.

 

[Pops2]

it's just like the PP guys say when some one says they know their dog will protect even though it's never been trained or tested.
YOU DON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY IT.
i've seen good bear dogs tuck tail and run from a hog. i've also seen tough as nails hog dogs pee themselves at the scent of a bear & head back to the truck. so just like the herding folks said you don't know if your dog will herd unless you herd & until you do that you're arguing from a position of ignorance.

my herding experience is limited to curs, aussie sheperds, BCs & heelers working cattle and aussies & BCs working sheep & goats in TX. texans who earn their living from their stock & dogs won't use curs & heelers on sheep & goats because they bite for real and that can mean money lost on those "soft" animals. those soft spanish goats will lay a real butt whipping on you if you're not careful my uncle had one put a horn THROUGH his hand, and they still won't use curs & heelers. i seriously doubt there are any sheep anywhere that are as rough as a free ranged spanish billy. working stock for real isn't the same as a trial either, a lot of dogs that look great at a trial will not work all day out on the range.

 

[Zoom]

I don't have much to add other than this is all quite interesting.

 

[Promethean]

as for the Mal's wait till the get more popular. They already are. 5-10 years ago hardly anybody outside a few working circles knew what they were. Now i've got people coming in to our club with problem Mal's cause they "wanted" one and had no idea what they were getting. It won't be long till some of them are dumbed down enough to satisfy the "want" of a mal that isn't really a mal. It's sad, but that's how it goes. It's happened to every breed that gets popular.

Soon, you'll have enough people selling the myth just like thousands of showline breeders of GSD's across this country and Germany. Selling a myth and an image of what once was, but sadly couldn't even dream of coming close to being held to the standard they're selling.

I agree, I hope they never get popular. Even know, I see people in my clubs (I do ring and schutz) that really should not have these dog. I for one never promote the breed. I often tell people mine are GSD mixes.

My experience is similar. I foster Mals from fools who thought they wanted a Malinois and quickly changed their minds when the dog starts biting anything that moves. Because they were clacking around the children. The worse thing that could happen to this breed is for it popularity to increase or for the show people to get a hold of them.

 

[adojrts]

it's just like the PP guys say when some one says they know their dog will protect even though it's never been trained or tested.
YOU DON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY IT.
i've seen good bear dogs tuck tail and run from a hog. i've also seen tough as nails hog dogs pee themselves at the scent of a bear & head back to the truck. so just like the herding folks said you don't know if your dog will herd unless you herd & until you do that you're arguing from a position of ignorance.
.

^^^Agreed.

I know nothing about herding (and this has been a very interesting thread) and the only thing I would add is, a working dog is also not proven by one or two times in the working field, regardless of the work.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Aren't there some lines of border collies that are more "aggressive" than others? Ones that will go in and grip as necessary?

Yes... I have one of those. A lot of people say that Border Collies are ineffective on cattle and are bound to get hurt. My Border Collie is too hard-mouthed on sheep, way too much eye, way too close. He struck fear into the hearts of the super dog broke sheep that our trainer uses. But I'm sure he would be amazing on cattle, or some really badass sheep.