Show bred Malinois

[OutlineACDs]

The above is a VERY gross generalization but I am in agreement with the breeders who look at the total picture of the dog and ensure that it can indeed do the job it was bred to do with the body it was given. I'll use me as an example- I have a very athletic build, my bones are strong and healthy, my joints are wonderful looking at the bone/cartilage aspect, I have decent endurance, and have been told I'm way too strong for my size. Conformationally, I am a pretty good example. Yet I have a condition that is not immediately apparent that makes me quite useless more often than not. So if you judge me in the showing, you'd say I'm a good specimen but if you judge me on physical working, well let's say I won't be swimming in the gene pool. :rofl1:

Which is why it SHOULD be commonplace to test for both! Work your dog all day long, day in and day out in whatever sport/venue etc is appropriate. That's great. If no one can recognize him physically as the breed he is, I'd say he doesn't need to be bred. I'm speaking in terms on purebreds here. I know there is a lot of variation in lots of breeds, border collies for one. They can come in any coat length or color, but there are other physical traits that make him a border collie. If he is a great herding dog, but someone at a trial has to ask you what breed he is then maybe he shouldn't be bred. This is what I use conformation for. To show people that my dogs are functional and they can be recognized as ACD's.

I also firmly believe in keeping the working dog in the show ring. People say, "Judges won't put up a working dog." Well, show them a working dog. If they don't have that dog in their ring, hell no they can't put it up. Not saying they always will, but your perfectly groomed barbie dogs don't always win either. There can only be 1 WD and 1 WB on any given day.

 

[Pops2]

I don't know much about Mals,other than the military bred ones are completely insane. My first training mentor used to run the big training base down there in Texas and she said when a new shipment of dogs came in, she had wear a bite sleeve just to open the door, because if any dogs had gotten loose during transit, they were coming out teeth first. There were other stories but yeah. Holy crap.



You're not taking into account drive and high pain tolerance. I'm thinking of one of the Triple Crown winners, Assault, who severely injured one of his front feet as a youngster by stepping on a sharp stake. When walking off the track, he limped so badly that he looked like he was going to fall over. But on the track, he ran like a perfectly sound horse and took one of the highest honors in the racing world. But he was incredibly far from sound.

What I'm getting at is that while theoretically the above statement is true, there are numerous dogs who will work through (and not show) rather high amounts of pain caused by improper conformation.

that isn't a conformation defect it is an injury. it would be equivalent to DQing a plott that got it's hip broken by a bear as older pup and so has poor gait but it is still finding & treeing bear all alone (rare) while the show winner when put on a bear wets himself & refuses to run the track. WHICH one is the true example of the breed? which one is the best choice for preserving the breed as a whole dog not as a one dimensional shadow of what the breed was/should be?

 

[Dekka]

I also firmly believe in keeping the working dog in the show ring. People say, "Judges won't put up a working dog." Well, show them a working dog. If they don't have that dog in their ring, hell no they can't put it up. Not saying they always will, but your perfectly groomed barbie dogs don't always win either. There can only be 1 WD and 1 WB on any given day.

You can keep putting them in there. But if your dog who IS a good example of the written breed standard and a working dog but doens't ever pin.. who is going to keep putting them in there.

I can think of some breeds where the winning conformation selects against working ability. If your breed is one with out a big split then go for it.

I do agree that if your dog is totally unrecognizable to an educated dog person it should be bred. But you can be very obviously a breed and never get put up. Dekka would NEVER place in a conformation class (unless there were only a few JRTs lol) Is she out of standard? No. Is it obvious she is a JRT? yes. I wasn't willing to throw my money out the window entering her in conformation. I might throw some money to show Kat (her daughter) in conformation..

The issue is the more and more stringently you try to narrow the selection criteria the more and faster your population gets inbred. Yes its good to have clear goals, but the goals should also take into account what is going to happen in 100 years to your favorite breed too.

 

[Zoom]

that isn't a conformation defect it is an injury. it would be equivalent to DQing a plott that got it's hip broken by a bear as older pup and so has poor gait but it is still finding & treeing bear all alone (rare) while the show winner when put on a bear wets himself & refuses to run the track. WHICH one is the true example of the breed? which one is the best choice for preserving the breed as a whole dog not as a one dimensional shadow of what the breed was/should be?

Yes I know it was an injury. The point I was trying to make was that even though he had a crippling injury, he still performed like a sound horse. So by saying that you can look at a dog and if it does it's work, regardless of being lamed (let's just say by hip dysplasia), then by that statement, the dog should be bred, because it still did it's work. What I'm getting at is that proper confo is paramount to having a sound working animal, be it horse or dog, but at the same time it's not the end all, be all of deciding the best overall function.

 

[Dekka]

Zoom: so health test vs conformation shows, I mean if you are worried about soundess. I have seen with my own eyes some very unsound dogs who are visibly unsound get put up in the ring. Infact show ring dogs only have to be shown to be sound at the trot.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Zoom: so health test vs conformation shows, I mean if you are worried about soundess. I have seen with my own eyes some very unsound dogs who are visibly unsound get put up in the ring. Infact show ring dogs only have to be shown to be sound at the trot.

This is true, and conformation isn't the be all end all of soundness, by any means. I have seen plenty of agility dogs who were not sound at a trot, they could go two speeds; stalk and run. I actually knew of one specific agility dog who was retired due to HD. He put out blazing times in jumpers courses and kept the bars up but he could not physically sit on the table in standard so he was retired. If I'm not mistaken he either had his MACh or was working towards it when the owners found this out.

I have also seen a few dogs out herding who weren't sound at a trot. They would work though.

 

[release the hounds]

If it wasn't so frickin sad, it would be hilarious to suggest that show rings test for conformational soundness. Look no further than the show line GSD, can't jump, can't walk without looking like its butt is going to fall over sideways, but it can sure trot pretty in the ring.

Soundness??? HA

 

[Pops2]

zoom comparing sport, like agility where the dog trains maybe an hour a day and competes for a few at most, to real work like working cattle for 12-16 hours a day 5-7 days a week 52 weeks a year is pure ignorance (not stupidity but ignorance). a dog w/ bad hips, elbows or other health issues won't last 2 years doing this or hunting the same amount of hours but putting in 10-30% more miles. real work weeds out the defects pretty quick. don't get me wrong sport work can be pretty demanding for people who want to make it that way, but most do it casually.

 

[AGonzalez]

If it wasn't so frickin sad, it would be hilarious to suggest that show rings test for conformational soundness. Look no further than the show line GSD, can't jump, can't walk without looking like its butt is going to fall over sideways, but it can sure trot pretty in the ring.

Soundness??? HA

:hail::hail::hail:

 

[Dekka]

This is true, and conformation isn't the be all end all of soundness, by any means. I have seen plenty of agility dogs who were not sound at a trot, they could go two speeds; stalk and run. I actually knew of one specific agility dog who was retired due to HD. He put out blazing times in jumpers courses and kept the bars up but he could not physically sit on the table in standard so he was retired. If I'm not mistaken he either had his MACh or was working towards it when the owners found this out.

I have also seen a few dogs out herding who weren't sound at a trot. They would work though.

Yes I have seen lame dogs competing in agility. It makes me sad. I am come from the dressage world where horses are eliminated if they are less than sound (ok well sometimes not at the highest levels due to the politics) But at all the local type shows unsound horses are excused.

Agility is not as demanding as working, but still a dog who is sore enough to show it shouldn't be asked to run, climb, jump, stop, twist etc. And I think its irresponsible for someone to work a lame dog waiting to see if it will break down.

 

[MPP]

And I think its irresponsible for someone to work a lame dog waiting to see if it will break down.

Amen!

 

[stafinois]

Actually, show ring malis are oversized.

Well, I'm not so sure that is the norm. I attempted to show my working bred dog a few times. He's pretty for a working dog, but looked goofy compared to the show dogs. But, they weren't larger than him. He's 25-26" and 57 lbs, within the standard. Some of them were slightly cobbier in build than him, but he looks kinda like a dark double coated Pharaoh Hound. I've seen MUCH larger dogs on the working field. Some of those KNPV "Malinois" coming out of Holland are the size of a horse.

I've actually been impressed with a lot of the "show bred" Malinois that I've met. Most probably won't be NARA champions, but more than enough dog to kick behind in obedience, agility, herding, tracking, flyball, and even do some Schutzhund. Remember that there isn't such a huge split in Belgians that you see in other breeds. Show bred Belgians are still HIGHLY competitive sport dogs, and are a LOT more dog than the working variety of many breeds.

As for kennels that I like, I was really impressed with the dogs that I saw from Carousel Malinois in Oregon. She has a blend of show/working dogs. Drive with off switches, and fabulous temperaments. Her foundation bitch just passed away at 16. Doug Leaf was breeding some nice dogs that I've seen working in Schutzhund, film, various performance sports, and kicking butt in the show ring.

To the OP, if you are interested, I can point you in the direction of more specialized Belgian forums online.

Yes, Dantero too would be a good place to look for a nice working dog

My Malinois is a Dantero dog. And yes, she has at least one that's a ginormous beast.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Are mals generally bigger than GSDs???

 

[stafinois]

Are mals generally bigger than GSDs???

They are roughly the same height but lighter in build.

 

[ihartgonzo]

What is wrong with a dog who has excellent conformation AND superior working ability?!?! With millions of homeless pet dogs in this country, including plenty of Malinois, why not demand both from breeders? No one needs to be breeding dogs who are gorgeous but brainless, or dogs who have all the drive but aren't physically sound. I don't get it....

I also don't understand getting a Mal if you don't want a working dog. Those dogs were created to be one of the most intense, versatile, hard working breeds in the world! Any good dog from a good breeder, provided that they are properly raised, handled and exercised, is going to have an off switch. Look for breeders whose dogs are a part of the family and live in a home environment; they don't want their working dogs to be bouncing off the walls in the house any more than you do!

 

[stafinois]

Any good dog from a good breeder, provided that they are properly raised, handled and exercised, is going to have an off switch. Look for breeders whose dogs are a part of the family and live in a home environment; they don't want their working dogs to be bouncing off the walls in the house any more than you do!

Well, you are welcome to come over and try to find the off switch on mine. All he has is an ineffective pause button :rofl1:

He did come from a good breeder that has been mentioned a couple of times by other posters in this thread. And, she does have some dogs in the house as pets. Some just have better off switches than others.

I don't know about other Malinois, but honestly my dog is WORSE the more excercise he gets. It's like it just warms him up. In the summer when we are always outdoors and active, he's particularly annoying

 

[stafinois]

And for what it's worth, I don't think that the show bred Malinois are empty, brainless shells. They may not be enough dog to take you to the NARA championships, but they are still a LOT more dog than the average person can deal with.

 

[corgipower]

What is wrong with a dog who has excellent conformation AND superior working ability?!?! With millions of homeless pet dogs in this country, including plenty of Malinois, why not demand both from breeders? No one needs to be breeding dogs who are gorgeous but brainless, or dogs who have all the drive but aren't physically sound. I don't get it....

Conformation suitable to get the job done and stay sound certainly is what the working breeders produce. But that's not necessarily the conformation that breed ring judges want to see.

No one in this thread suggested sacrificing sound structure.

All he has is an ineffective pause button :rofl1:

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:
That's a great description.

I don't know about other Malinois, but honestly my dog is WORSE the more excercise he gets. It's like it just warms him up. In the summer when we are always outdoors and active, he's particularly annoying

The more exercise they get, the fitter they get and the more exercise they need.

 

[stafinois]

The more exercise they get, the fitter they get and the more exercise they need.

It's so frustrating. I have literally thrown the ball until he had worn down his carpal pads and was bleeding from the nose. And he screams for more. i've never actually seen him worn out before :rofl1:

 

[ihartgonzo]

No one in this thread suggested sacrificing sound structure.

Oh, I know... my post was just directed at the OP. I only read the first page at that point.

I hear you about more exercise demanding more exercise. Border Collies are the same way! Gonzo would mindlessly play ball for hours on end, and after that act like a spazz, even at 9 years old. A good hour of heelwork and recalls tires him out for the rest of the day, though. The Malinois that I know are super intense dogs, and always ready to work, and that's what their owners love about them. I just don't see the point in watering down the breed to create a show line - maybe now they are still true to type, but for how long? I would hate to see them go the same way as Border Collies... I just don't like to see working breeds diluted to fit the needs of the "average" person. The "average" person should look elsewhere. There are plenty of lower energy, lower drive breeds in the world!