Show bred Malinois
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There isn't a bred for both worlds. It's a fricking myth propagated by worthless showline breeders to sell their product. I can count on ONE hand the number of showline GSD's i'd even consider having at my house. They were nice dogs, sprinkled very, very, very thinly amongst mostly **** and I do mean ****. Talk to the owners and one could really believe they had the best of both worlds. In reality, being the guy that works them, they are NOT even in the same class. Not by a long shot.
Sure they might be "nice" dogs and somebody's "Best" dog in the world, but stacked against working dogs, they aren't even the same breed if you ask me, not even close.
I have never come across a "showline" mal breeder because I have never seen one in any working venue at all. No Mondio, no french ring, no Schutzhund. So if there is some breeder out there saying they are producing the best of both worlds, I'd love to see them, cause I have yet to see anybody worth anything that are breeding for anything other than WORK because it is a working breed. If they have nice dogs and are breeding for the ring, then I doubt they are proving their worth as a worker, and if they are it's on a very small scale. The dog world is small even in this big country.
If I was looking for a Mal here in the states, there's three kennels I'd look at to start Loup de soleil, von Donnertal, and ot vitosha.
Sure they might be "nice" dogs and somebody's "Best" dog in the world, but stacked against working dogs, they aren't even the same breed if you ask me, not even close.
I have never come across a "showline" mal breeder because I have never seen one in any working venue at all. No Mondio, no french ring, no Schutzhund. So if there is some breeder out there saying they are producing the best of both worlds, I'd love to see them, cause I have yet to see anybody worth anything that are breeding for anything other than WORK because it is a working breed. If they have nice dogs and are breeding for the ring, then I doubt they are proving their worth as a worker, and if they are it's on a very small scale. The dog world is small even in this big country.
If I was looking for a Mal here in the states, there's three kennels I'd look at to start Loup de soleil, von Donnertal, and ot vitosha.
Guess I don't see why a working breeder can't do schutzhund one weekend and then hit up a conformation show another weekend? Just because you have never heard of someone doesn't mean they don't exist.
I haven't shown in conformation with my dogs in almost, wow, 8 yrs. My oldest bitch finished her Ch. in 2002 and has only been shown in specialties since then. She has been training and showing other venues almost non-stop since she finished. I plan the same thing for my upcoming puppy. He's only 4 months old, but we are training in various venues and working in herding. We will show conformation when we have time and finish his Ch., but the main focus is performance/working events.
ETA: You can breed for WORK and still have Ch. showdogs in your line. would a working breeder go out and breed to a nonproven show dog, no, but IMO a working dog SHOULD be the epitome of the standard. I would like my working dogs to be every bit as worthy of a conformation Ch. because my breed is a herding breed. If they are built to herd, they are built to work, therefore built to the standard because our standard supports a working dog.
I haven't shown in conformation with my dogs in almost, wow, 8 yrs. My oldest bitch finished her Ch. in 2002 and has only been shown in specialties since then. She has been training and showing other venues almost non-stop since she finished. I plan the same thing for my upcoming puppy. He's only 4 months old, but we are training in various venues and working in herding. We will show conformation when we have time and finish his Ch., but the main focus is performance/working events.
ETA: You can breed for WORK and still have Ch. showdogs in your line. would a working breeder go out and breed to a nonproven show dog, no, but IMO a working dog SHOULD be the epitome of the standard. I would like my working dogs to be every bit as worthy of a conformation Ch. because my breed is a herding breed. If they are built to herd, they are built to work, therefore built to the standard because our standard supports a working dog.
Dantero breeds some really nice working malinois. They do a lot of ringsport, their dogs also can herd and can do pretty much any sport you want. On her website, she lists 3 dogs that did do conformation.
Yes, a working bred dog should fit the breed standard too. But breeding for X size and Y color shouldn't be the top priority in a working dog and when you're out proving your dogs in ringsport, odds are you're just not going to confo shows.
Also what wins in the breed ring does not always fit the written standard. Malinois shouldn't be 80 pounds, but judges will choose an 80 pound mali, and then everyone starts breeding them too big.
And take Ares as an example...He was an amazing working dog. His temperament is everything a corgi should be. He had drive, he had incredible herding instinct and he was very athletic when working stock and doing agility. He had the stamina and structure that I'm pretty sure could have allowed him to be a true working dog if I'd owned a farm. Yet he would never have made it in the confo ring. Is he out of standard? I don't know. I'd have to measure him and compare it to what's written. But I do know that his TYPE is not even close to what's in the ring.
Yes, a working bred dog should fit the breed standard too. But breeding for X size and Y color shouldn't be the top priority in a working dog and when you're out proving your dogs in ringsport, odds are you're just not going to confo shows.
Also what wins in the breed ring does not always fit the written standard. Malinois shouldn't be 80 pounds, but judges will choose an 80 pound mali, and then everyone starts breeding them too big.
And take Ares as an example...He was an amazing working dog. His temperament is everything a corgi should be. He had drive, he had incredible herding instinct and he was very athletic when working stock and doing agility. He had the stamina and structure that I'm pretty sure could have allowed him to be a true working dog if I'd owned a farm. Yet he would never have made it in the confo ring. Is he out of standard? I don't know. I'd have to measure him and compare it to what's written. But I do know that his TYPE is not even close to what's in the ring.
:lol-sign:
That may be, but I'd also wonder how much of that is the training/handling.
I'm not familiar with military dogs and handlers and training, but I do know many police canine officers cannot handle a mali. And in some cases, they get a mali, end up with issues of the dog biting inappropriately, and they go on and place him with a sport trainer where the dog shines. Not because he's better as a sport dog, but because the sport trainer knows what they're doing.
That may be, but I'd also wonder how much of that is the training/handling.
I'm not familiar with military dogs and handlers and training, but I do know many police canine officers cannot handle a mali. And in some cases, they get a mali, end up with issues of the dog biting inappropriately, and they go on and place him with a sport trainer where the dog shines. Not because he's better as a sport dog, but because the sport trainer knows what they're doing.
The show ring does not determine if a dog will have sound nerves. It will not prove a herding breed can herd, a sporting breed can hunt, a terrier can dig and kill, a hound can track nor course. The show ring will not differentiate between a dog safe with kids and a dog that is a danger to society. The show ring will NOT prove whether or not a dog has the structure to do its originally intended purpose. All the show ring does is help prove some arbitrary image of a dog that judges happen to interpret a certain way based (loosely) on the breed standard.
First and foremost, a malinois should be able to run fast and bite hard. It is a German shepherd on crack. Many do have off switches but they should not have a very chill temperament. This is still a strong working breed and yes, there is a working/show split well on its way, sadly.
http://www.malinoispuppies.com/images/viara.jpg
A nice working-bred malinois.
http://www.mystiquemalinois.com/pictures/klaar_trew_charisma.jpg
A show-bred malinois.
http://www.alleesablee.com/images/upload/fullsize/Scout_pic_001.jpg
Show fluff.
http://www.nbizz.com/vonasgard/upload/knpvmalback2.jpg
A very hairy armpit.
There is nothing wrong with taking a ringsport mali or IPO mali to the show ring but there is an issue with searching out a very strict working breed with the intent of placing showing high on the priority list. Honestly, the BEST conformation showing for a malinois is running a hard and fast agility course, searching out drugs (or a favorite toy) in a warehouse with a bunch of stuff to climb over, a 9' palisade wall, and a decoy hell bent on giving the dog a run for its money. If a malinois can do all that in one day, it's conformation is perfect so nothing more is necessary.
Kennel Daneskjold
A breeder who admits it was stupid to try to get the best of both worlds by mixing show stock with working stock.
Carousel Belgian Malinois
I do not know anything about this breeder as I found them by googling but they might be worth checking out. I would be very curious about the Sch I dog and would like to see it work on a strange field but a VST and UDXs are nothing to sneeze at. If I could see them being tested by a helper and the helper likes what he sees, if I were in your shoes then I might put this breeder on the short list.
First and foremost, a malinois should be able to run fast and bite hard. It is a German shepherd on crack.
Many do have off switches but they should not have a very chill temperament. This is still a strong working breed and yes, there is a working/show split well on its way, sadly. http://www.malinoispuppies.com/images/viara.jpg
A nice working-bred malinois.
http://www.mystiquemalinois.com/pictures/klaar_trew_charisma.jpg
A show-bred malinois.
http://www.alleesablee.com/images/upload/fullsize/Scout_pic_001.jpg
Show fluff.
http://www.nbizz.com/vonasgard/upload/knpvmalback2.jpg
A very hairy armpit.
There is nothing wrong with taking a ringsport mali or IPO mali to the show ring but there is an issue with searching out a very strict working breed with the intent of placing showing high on the priority list. Honestly, the BEST conformation showing for a malinois is running a hard and fast agility course, searching out drugs (or a favorite toy) in a warehouse with a bunch of stuff to climb over, a 9' palisade wall, and a decoy hell bent on giving the dog a run for its money. If a malinois can do all that in one day, it's conformation is perfect so nothing more is necessary.
Kennel Daneskjold
A breeder who admits it was stupid to try to get the best of both worlds by mixing show stock with working stock.
Carousel Belgian Malinois
I do not know anything about this breeder as I found them by googling but they might be worth checking out. I would be very curious about the Sch I dog and would like to see it work on a strange field but a VST and UDXs are nothing to sneeze at. If I could see them being tested by a helper and the helper likes what he sees, if I were in your shoes then I might put this breeder on the short list.
I don't know much about Mals,other than the military bred ones are completely insane. My first training mentor used to run the big training base down there in Texas and she said when a new shipment of dogs came in, she had wear a bite sleeve just to open the door, because if any dogs had gotten loose during transit, they were coming out teeth first. There were other stories but yeah. Holy crap.
You're not taking into account drive and high pain tolerance. I'm thinking of one of the Triple Crown winners, Assault, who severely injured one of his front feet as a youngster by stepping on a sharp stake. When walking off the track, he limped so badly that he looked like he was going to fall over. But on the track, he ran like a perfectly sound horse and took one of the highest honors in the racing world. But he was incredibly far from sound.
What I'm getting at is that while theoretically the above statement is true, there are numerous dogs who will work through (and not show) rather high amounts of pain caused by improper conformation.
If a malinois can do all that in one day, it's conformation is perfect so nothing more is necessary.
What I'm getting at is that while theoretically the above statement is true, there are numerous dogs who will work through (and not show) rather high amounts of pain caused by improper conformation.
Oh thank you for your replies.
JennSLK, I DO want the high drive of a Mal, that isn't an issues for me. What I heard about some working line Mal is the no off switch. While not true for all, I was just trying to find a balance. If the show bred Malinois have the energy and drive of the working Malinois, but guaranteed more of an off switch, than I'd be good.
Not all the show malinois are 80 pound. Some are in the 60s actually.
I was actually checking out Dantero last night and she did have Malinois that were 85 pounds. Larger than that show Malinois in MalinGer.
But I do understand your frustrations in where the show Malinois might be heading, but I promise you that I will never support a breeder who feels the need to change all breeds into a good pet. What I wanted in a Malinois was a dog who could work, but is a showing prospect as well. I'm still on the fence on whether or not showing is for me, but that is why I'm researching both the working and the show lines. And yes, working a dog in sports is my main purpose.
ETA: AND whether or not I even want a Malinois. This is a process that is going to take years. This is the start, which is searching kennels and the breed in general. It isn't until I am able to handle both show and working lines, than I would make the decision, so bear with me.
JennSLK, I DO want the high drive of a Mal, that isn't an issues for me. What I heard about some working line Mal is the no off switch. While not true for all, I was just trying to find a balance. If the show bred Malinois have the energy and drive of the working Malinois, but guaranteed more of an off switch, than I'd be good.
Not all the show malinois are 80 pound. Some are in the 60s actually.
I was actually checking out Dantero last night and she did have Malinois that were 85 pounds. Larger than that show Malinois in MalinGer.
But I do understand your frustrations in where the show Malinois might be heading, but I promise you that I will never support a breeder who feels the need to change all breeds into a good pet. What I wanted in a Malinois was a dog who could work, but is a showing prospect as well. I'm still on the fence on whether or not showing is for me, but that is why I'm researching both the working and the show lines. And yes, working a dog in sports is my main purpose.
ETA: AND whether or not I even want a Malinois. This is a process that is going to take years. This is the start, which is searching kennels and the breed in general. It isn't until I am able to handle both show and working lines, than I would make the decision, so bear with me.
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Worse it that condemning a working dog to run around a ring is cruel and the handler is going to be disappointed because that will not be enough. There is a reason you don't see that many Malinois or Belgians in the show ring, they are suited to better things.
And yes, handler aggression is a common problem with working Mals
BTW, I hate it when people refer to the malamuts as Mals.
And yes, handler aggression is a common problem with working Mals
BTW, I hate it when people refer to the malamuts as Mals.
Very true, however this dog's conformation defect was not caused by genetics (poor dog, too). I think anyone who works dogs or at least looks at enough dogs can see a conformation defect. An English bulldog is one big conformation defect, for instance (no offense intended). Many German shepherd dogs from all lines have conformation defects in the angulation and back that, while called for by the breed standard, is not adequate for a working/herding breed. Fox terriers have the conformation defect of shoulders too straight and chests too deep to effectively go to ground on a real world working basis. Yet all of these defects are encouraged in the show ring.
What I am getting at is we should be looking at conformation as an overall picture of the dog. If a cattle dog does have a conformation glitch like pasterns that are too upright and a back that's too long but at the age of six is still pushing around herds of stubborn and angry cattle for hours on end and does not show any soreness, the dog can work, it's useful, it's good. Conversely, if a dog has "perfect conformation" yet breaks down after a period of hard work and shows many limitations, the dog is not useful and should not be bred.
The above is a VERY gross generalization but I am in agreement with the breeders who look at the total picture of the dog and ensure that it can indeed do the job it was bred to do with the body it was given. I'll use me as an example- I have a very athletic build, my bones are strong and healthy, my joints are wonderful looking at the bone/cartilage aspect, I have decent endurance, and have been told I'm way too strong for my size. Conformationally, I am a pretty good example. Yet I have a condition that is not immediately apparent that makes me quite useless more often than not. So if you judge me in the showing, you'd say I'm a good specimen but if you judge me on physical working, well let's say I won't be swimming in the gene pool. :rofl1:
What I am getting at is we should be looking at conformation as an overall picture of the dog. If a cattle dog does have a conformation glitch like pasterns that are too upright and a back that's too long but at the age of six is still pushing around herds of stubborn and angry cattle for hours on end and does not show any soreness, the dog can work, it's useful, it's good. Conversely, if a dog has "perfect conformation" yet breaks down after a period of hard work and shows many limitations, the dog is not useful and should not be bred.
The above is a VERY gross generalization but I am in agreement with the breeders who look at the total picture of the dog and ensure that it can indeed do the job it was bred to do with the body it was given. I'll use me as an example- I have a very athletic build, my bones are strong and healthy, my joints are wonderful looking at the bone/cartilage aspect, I have decent endurance, and have been told I'm way too strong for my size. Conformationally, I am a pretty good example. Yet I have a condition that is not immediately apparent that makes me quite useless more often than not. So if you judge me in the showing, you'd say I'm a good specimen but if you judge me on physical working, well let's say I won't be swimming in the gene pool. :rofl1: