Shock collars

[whatszmatter]

The most educated in behavior modification are the very people who are trying to have the use of shock collars abolished.
I can guarantee it's not currently educated behaviorists out there using shock collars as the science does not support or warrent their use.

There are just so many other, more effective ways to achieve behavior reliability than to resort to shock collars....AGAIN, THIS IS A PUPPY FORUM!!!
(not directed at the person that I quoted or anyone specifically)

THese are the statements I take offense too, maybe the people you read or listen to do are trying to get them abolished, yet there are thousands out there with beautiful working relationships with their animals that I can gaurantee would out perform these behaviorists dogs.

yeah this may be a puppy forum, I wouldn't use one on a puppy either, but not everyone gets a dog gets one as a puppy, not everyone has been imprinted, not every dog has come from the same back ground. As for efficiency and effectiveness again, those are your opinions. I guess you haven't seen the effectiveness or efficiency in training when someone uses one, and don't give me the working relationship is different, i'll put any dog that has had a e-collar on or "shock" that has trained with us, next to any other one that has never seen one, and you can't tell me they aren't efficient, or effective, or tell me their inhumane.

If a dog's life is in danger doing a certain activity because it doesn't have a reliable enough recall or stay and it cannot be managed humanely, then perhaps it should not be engaging in that activity.

So it would be more humane to leave a high drive lab in a kennel all day or just walks on a leash rather than putting an ecollar on it and training so it can go out and use its natural instinct safely?? I guess we have different definitions of humane.

Yes, I find putting electric current through an animal inhumane.

ahh, human emotion again. Its a far far far cry from running electric current thru an animal, for sure. My God, we use higher levels and put them on people AND animals for much longer durations of time and call it THERAPY.

 

[dr2little]

THese are the statements I take offense too, maybe the people you read or listen to do are trying to get them abolished, yet there are thousands out there with beautiful working relationships with their animals that I can gaurantee would out perform these behaviorists dogs.
I'm referring to the top professionals most often seen (for a reason) in the seminar circuit as well as the documented research done by the behavioral sciences community... why does that FACT offend you? Honestly, you show me one applied animal behaviorist who whould EVER put a shock collar on a dog in the name of "training".

yeah this may be a puppy forum, I wouldn't use one on a puppy either, but not everyone gets a dog gets one as a puppy, not everyone has been imprinted, not every dog has come from the same back ground. As for efficiency and effectiveness again, those are your opinions. Certainly not mine alone, read the link I posted earlier in this thread..I guess you haven't seen the effectiveness or efficiency in training when someone uses one, and don't give me the working relationship is different, i'll put any dog that has had a e-collar on or "shock" that has trained with us, next to any other one that has never seen one, and you can't tell me they aren't efficient, or effective, or tell me their inhumane.
I have a few questions for you. What would cause you to use a shock collar over more humane methods? Why is it that so many trainers/behaviorists find no need for them or have stopped using them. The shift away from shock collars is not "my opinion", it's happening.


So it would be more humane to leave a high drive lab in a kennel all day or just walks on a leash rather than putting an ecollar on it and training so it can go out and use its natural instinct safely?? I guess we have different definitions of humane.I guess we do, and different definitions of the word training as well. I will not say that I believe in something that there is no need for especially when it is not without the use of pain or fear. Please don't tell me that because I choose a perhaps slower method of achieving a desired behavior that it can't be done or is inhumane. It's these extreme points.."leave a lab in a kennel all day".. that make your arguments weak. I'm talking about training, not giving up...!!
I'm not standing alone, hence the reference to other professionals much more well know than myself, and I would NEVER use a shock collar to teach a behavior that can be learned without it.

ahh, human emotion again. Its a far far far cry from running electric current thru an animal, for sure. My God, we use higher levels and put them on people AND animals for much longer durations of time and call it THERAPY. A very common, yet not quite accurate argument. Again, read the unbiased research..or at least the article that I posted.
This is not an attack on you, I am quite justified in stating my case against something that I find inhumane and unnecessary...just like you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[whatszmatter]

Here's one of my first posts, you wanted unbiased opinion, research, etc. Here it is, i've had it since day one, its still there, its still dismissed and ignored by some. You want to claim behaviorists and educated, etc to back you up, find me someone more educated and unbiased than Stehpen Lindsay, all the people you quote and call experts, call him an expert as well, ALL OF THEM, still want to say I have no research, i have no education, i have no basis??? True these have nothing to do with e-collars, they have to do with correction, shocking the hell out of a dog is not correcting, but using it to communticate is, but back to the point, tell me the following words aren't true

Here's a quote from Stephen Lindsay, "properly understood, reward and punishment are morally neutral, the one being neither better nor worse thatn the other. Both outcomes serve equally vital functions in perfecting an animal's adaptation ot the social and physical environment. Lerning to respond and cope appropriately with the treats and trials of life is an important part of normal development for dogs... Although punishment is unpleasant, precisely what aspect makes it so beneficial and useful."

He also says about punishment, "not only is punishment often poorly misunderstood as a behavioral procedure, it is just as often bogged down in dire warnings of serious side effects and, more importantly, the false view that it does not work."

I like this one the best. " .... the pedulum has swung from a stubborn rliance on punishment and negative reinforcement to an equally unnatural extreme in which the use of punishment and negative reinforcement (in some quarters) is shunned to embrace a so-called "positive" approach to training and behavioral control. Extremem positions, whether based on good intention or not, are typically based on irrational beliefs and assumptions,- not scientific knowledge and experience. The adoption of an exclusive reliance on punishment or reward alone reflects a core of misunderstanding about how dog behavior is most effeciently modified."

I'd be willing to bet he's done more research than ALL us on this board combined. ANyone care to tell him he's telling lies, and that you alone have the FACTS?

Because people misunderstand or abuse punishment doesn't make "positive only" methods somehow superior to everything else. and for some of you on here to be spouting that mantra every chance you have, well, is about the same thing as 50 years ago when people told you that you had to force your dog to do everything.

because the writers of new books lace tons and tons of human emotion into the pages of the book to explain why they're "superior", does not make it new, advanced or superior in anyway.

I too am at a loss as to why more people don't see what they're doing.

 

[Rayna 3]

Ok, I'm really glad for all the response and education I've gotten from this post. I've learned quite a bit about shock collars. I've checked out your posts that were for and against it and even the links you guys posted - so tks

What strikes me in all this is the following: The shock collars aren't the problem here -- people are. When in the hands of someone sadistic this is definitely a torture device. When in the hands of a well intentioned trainer this could be a good tool. The same could be said of many everyday items.

What some seem to be forgetting is that this shock is not something the dog goes through every moment of its life. The shock itself is very brief. Just because the dog is wearing the collar doesn't mean it's receiving a shock. From all I read the dog is usually trained in a matter of days -- so let's say 10 shocks and it's trained. I received more spankings than that growing up and I'd say they hurt just as bad.

In any case, to each their own Thanks again for all the links and posts -- they were extremely helpful.

 

[CrestedRep]

There are so many good points on both sides I am undecided I have to admit... The hunters in the group got me thinking a little. LOL I obviously wouldn't and couldn't on my Cresteds and there naked necks. hmmm....great thread although yes...not one for the puppy forum I agree.

 

[Ashlea]

Personally, I couldn't care if someone uses a shock collar on their dogs, it is none of my business. I would not use on on mine.

Anyone who says it is humane, put one on and have someone shock the sh*t out of you with one. Especially from 100 feet away without you knowing it is coming. OUCH! Not nice.

But if you want to use one, go ahead. I will not be subjecting any of my animals to electric collars anytime soon.

 

[lakotasong]

Anyone who says it is humane, put one on and have someone shock the sh*t out of you with one.

As I said, I've only had to use one once on a dog. And when we bought the collar, I tried it on my arm (on the lower settings). When it's needed, I can certainly see how it gets the job done!

 

[cindr]

As I said, I've only had to use one once on a dog. And when we bought the collar, I tried it on my arm (on the lower settings). When it's needed, I can certainly see how it gets the job done!

I know a family that owned a gsd female. Now if you know anything about a high bred gsd they need to be worked. They either have a high prey drive and or defense drive. Well these people placed a shock collar on this particular dog. One of those underground ones. Anyhow they never ever put any time into the dog other than feeding the dog and bringing it in during the night.

Well as you know the dog may not be able to go any where due to the fact everytime the dog goes near the boundries she gets a shock. Well these two areas occured

1) Male dog entered the property and bred the female gsd now you have MUTTS. The shock collar kept her in but did not keep him out.

2) A young kid came into the yard and the dog ripped him to shreads. So again the shock collar kept her in but did nothing to stop her actions.

I truly believe if you love you dog you would do what he/she needs and requires. But if it means tramitizing a dog. Nope do not use it. This dog became so territorial and her aggression would become built up to the point of no return. As far as the pups are concerned yes they should have had the dog locked up and or spayed. But why should some people be responsible when 10 others are not. So who ever wants to use the creepy thing go nuts. I just know that it is truly truly cruel. And will not ever be used on my dogs. I think it is the LAZY MANS WAY OUT. If you truly loved your dog you would get it trained or take the classes to help you train it

 

[silverpawz]

You're reffering to an invisible fence, not a shock (ecollar) collar.

The story you described sounds like a very unfortunate situation for the dog. But, it appears that it was due soley to the lack of care and training provided by the owners. The invsisble fence was not the problem, the owners who left their dog outside all the time unsupervised were the problem.

As far as the pups are concerned yes they should have had the dog locked up and or spayed. But why should some people be responsible when 10 others are not.

Say what? That's like saying don't bother to spay/neuter because you'll never make a difference, go ahead have all the pups ya want. OF COURSE they should have spayed their dog, and the male dog who mated with her should have been leashed and neutered. Unfortunetly it looks like neither owner bothered.

That looks like a case of people who are not responsible pet owners plain and simple. The invisible fence collar didn't tell those folks to leave their unspayed dog outside all day.