Rosettes to Ruin
- Thread starter Miakoda
- Start date
Psyfalcon;
I have never hunted to fox in the U.K, BUT I know many people from here that have, I also know, well know, well respected working terriermen from the U.K that have hunted fox here in N.A. And they all say the same thing, that the foxes in the U.K are larger. So I am basing my statements on their personal experiences for the differences in the sizes of the fox.
As for hunting badger, in N.A its in the mid west. It's illegal to hunt them now in the U.K or to even disturb what COULD be a badger sette. And no, not many people take their dogs out to hunt badger these days, the main quarry in N.A for earth working terriers is Red Fox, Grey Fox, Raccoons, Groundhogs and Possum.
I have personally hunted my terriers to ground hog, red fox and coon. Out of the 5 jrts that I have, 4 of them are proven working terriers to different quarry, the other young bitch has not yet been out in the working field, but I plan to take her out this year and see if the 'lights come on', if she doesn't work, she ll be culled from my breeding program. And of course she has NOT been bred yet.
Do you hunt with terriers in the earth?
Take care
Lynn
I have never hunted to fox in the U.K, BUT I know many people from here that have, I also know, well know, well respected working terriermen from the U.K that have hunted fox here in N.A. And they all say the same thing, that the foxes in the U.K are larger. So I am basing my statements on their personal experiences for the differences in the sizes of the fox.
As for hunting badger, in N.A its in the mid west. It's illegal to hunt them now in the U.K or to even disturb what COULD be a badger sette. And no, not many people take their dogs out to hunt badger these days, the main quarry in N.A for earth working terriers is Red Fox, Grey Fox, Raccoons, Groundhogs and Possum.
I have personally hunted my terriers to ground hog, red fox and coon. Out of the 5 jrts that I have, 4 of them are proven working terriers to different quarry, the other young bitch has not yet been out in the working field, but I plan to take her out this year and see if the 'lights come on', if she doesn't work, she ll be culled from my breeding program. And of course she has NOT been bred yet.
Do you hunt with terriers in the earth?
Take care
Lynn
I have not had the chance. Maybe if it was someone else's terrier, I've only met a few, and they were rather insane.
My hunting dog experience is of the above ground sort. Pointers, setters, those sorts of things. I don't know of any working terriers here, and in NJ, it sounds like something that would get you arrested, especially on state land. Regulations are pretty stiff on everything, including groundhogs and rabbits, unlike the west, and digging up state land would be severely frowned upon. A terrier might work out for some of the stocked pheasants and squirrels around here which tend to hid in some insane thickets, or in groundhog holes!
I'll go back and look at foxes again. If anything, I'd expect ours to be larger, since there is more open ground out west, especially when they were introduced. Then again, we don't have the pipework which seems to be a popular there. I wonder if (for my own amusement) there can be some sort of systematic sampling or record keeping.
My hunting dog experience is of the above ground sort. Pointers, setters, those sorts of things. I don't know of any working terriers here, and in NJ, it sounds like something that would get you arrested, especially on state land. Regulations are pretty stiff on everything, including groundhogs and rabbits, unlike the west, and digging up state land would be severely frowned upon. A terrier might work out for some of the stocked pheasants and squirrels around here which tend to hid in some insane thickets, or in groundhog holes!
I'll go back and look at foxes again. If anything, I'd expect ours to be larger, since there is more open ground out west, especially when they were introduced. Then again, we don't have the pipework which seems to be a popular there. I wonder if (for my own amusement) there can be some sort of systematic sampling or record keeping.
I know a couple of breeders that also work their jrts from NJ. I'll have to ask them if they hunt locally or if they have to travel to other states etc.
When we go hunting, it is privately owned land, usually farms and we always get permission first and learn the farms borders before setting out.
It's not uncommon for the farmer or landowner to come out to see how we hunt with these little white dogs and most are amazed.
Last year, we arrived at a farm, we were getting ready to set out, when the farmer and his wife arrived. My friends (it was their permission) stopped to chat with them. I had just finished putting on a Deben on my dog and turned him loose when they arrived, no other dogs had been prepared yet.
We were parked in the corner of a hay field with visable groundhog settes. My dog started towards the closest ones, I turned to everyone saying...I have a dog heading towards that sette.......they told me to go on with my dog and that they would catch up........ the sette had several holes, Petie went to each hole, putting his head in, checking to see if anyone was home.....I was quickly walking to him but before I got there, his butt disappeared. The sette was only about 250 ft away from the vehicle and I got there quickly, even carrying spades and other gear. By the time I got there, Petie was roaring his head off in the earth, the earth was shaking under my feet. I laughed and called down to my friends, I have a dog in and baying" (onto quarry and pushing it back) they quickly came to the sette, the farmer and his wife were very excited. Out comes the locator box, Petie was 20 ft away from the hole he had entered and was 4 1/2 ft down, he was not moving and had settled in, we ended up digging one hole down to him, pulled him out, pulled the hog out, dispatched of the quarry, THEN gave the quarry to him to 'kill' and quard. The farmers wife wanted a photo of us, with my dog and the quarry. We then filled in the hole, got the rest of the dogs and moved on. Hunting groundhogs generally isn't that easy or fast (we ususally have to dig more than one hole) but it was an excellent start for the day................good dog.
Take care
Lynn
btw, this dog?? 13.25 tall and the soil conditions were not great, lots of rocks and gravel, which is hard on the dogs.
When we go hunting, it is privately owned land, usually farms and we always get permission first and learn the farms borders before setting out.
It's not uncommon for the farmer or landowner to come out to see how we hunt with these little white dogs and most are amazed.
Last year, we arrived at a farm, we were getting ready to set out, when the farmer and his wife arrived. My friends (it was their permission) stopped to chat with them. I had just finished putting on a Deben on my dog and turned him loose when they arrived, no other dogs had been prepared yet.
We were parked in the corner of a hay field with visable groundhog settes. My dog started towards the closest ones, I turned to everyone saying...I have a dog heading towards that sette.......they told me to go on with my dog and that they would catch up........ the sette had several holes, Petie went to each hole, putting his head in, checking to see if anyone was home.....I was quickly walking to him but before I got there, his butt disappeared. The sette was only about 250 ft away from the vehicle and I got there quickly, even carrying spades and other gear. By the time I got there, Petie was roaring his head off in the earth, the earth was shaking under my feet. I laughed and called down to my friends, I have a dog in and baying" (onto quarry and pushing it back) they quickly came to the sette, the farmer and his wife were very excited. Out comes the locator box, Petie was 20 ft away from the hole he had entered and was 4 1/2 ft down, he was not moving and had settled in, we ended up digging one hole down to him, pulled him out, pulled the hog out, dispatched of the quarry, THEN gave the quarry to him to 'kill' and quard. The farmers wife wanted a photo of us, with my dog and the quarry. We then filled in the hole, got the rest of the dogs and moved on. Hunting groundhogs generally isn't that easy or fast (we ususally have to dig more than one hole) but it was an excellent start for the day................good dog.
Take care
Lynn
btw, this dog?? 13.25 tall and the soil conditions were not great, lots of rocks and gravel, which is hard on the dogs.
Sizzle, HUH????? Could you please point out to me where I said your dogs dont have a high enough level of agression before you accuse me of it? Thanks.
Once again I''ll say what I have been saying all along, Show dogs may be able to still perform their original task to some degree, but working dogs will almost ALWAYS do it better. I can''t say every single time cause there is always the exception out there.
Oh ya and as for my personal AKC experience, I have none considering I live in Canada...but as for my CKC experience, I''ve been along side and worked with enough show breeders, fanciers, enthusiasts and competitors to know how the system works and how to make it to your advantage. How many dogs are CH while still puppies while it is the easiest. All I said was getting a dog a CH, I said nothing about making it the #1 German Pinscher in the country or whatever breed you fancy. THAT I know takes a lot more time and money. Funny how you guys sem to enjoy twisting the words I say...
At the end of the day, you can keep your watered-down nicey nicey breed ""specimens"" I''ll stick to the ones that might not look as pretty to a judge, but i know will perform their job optimally because they have been tested and proven
After all, where there''s a will there''s a way!
Once again I''ll say what I have been saying all along, Show dogs may be able to still perform their original task to some degree, but working dogs will almost ALWAYS do it better. I can''t say every single time cause there is always the exception out there.
Oh ya and as for my personal AKC experience, I have none considering I live in Canada...but as for my CKC experience, I''ve been along side and worked with enough show breeders, fanciers, enthusiasts and competitors to know how the system works and how to make it to your advantage. How many dogs are CH while still puppies while it is the easiest. All I said was getting a dog a CH, I said nothing about making it the #1 German Pinscher in the country or whatever breed you fancy. THAT I know takes a lot more time and money. Funny how you guys sem to enjoy twisting the words I say...
At the end of the day, you can keep your watered-down nicey nicey breed ""specimens"" I''ll stick to the ones that might not look as pretty to a judge, but i know will perform their job optimally because they have been tested and proven
After all, where there''s a will there''s a way!
I think its really sad you have to belittle these so called "watered down nicey nice breeds" I dunno why you are so rude about this descussion. It was a rather decent debate until you tuned in with your rudeness and disrespect.But like they say, people will only say 10% of what they say on the internet face to face with someone.
That may apply to some, but clearly you dont know me And I haven''t been rude, you apparently have just taken things too personally. I mean nothing but to partake in a good debate. I spoke my mind and others have spoken theirs. At the end of the day each side has some food for thought. It''s the joys of having differing opinions!
BTW, at some point Ryan I was meaning to say that I really like the look of your Rottie in your signature. It appears that more and more of the Rottie these days are getting shorter and shorter in the back but yours hasn''t and that brought a smile to my face the first time I saw it. A very lovely dog indeed and I''m sure she will bring you many joys both in the show ring, and if it suits your fancy, some sort of sport as well. Good luck with her!
And I haven''t been rude, you apparently have just taken things too personally. I mean nothing but to partake in a good debate. I spoke my mind and others have spoken theirs. At the end of the day each side has some food for thought. It''s the joys of having differing opinions! BTW, at some point Ryan I was meaning to say that I really like the look of your Rottie in your signature. It appears that more and more of the Rottie these days are getting shorter and shorter in the back but yours hasn''t and that brought a smile to my face the first time I saw it. A very lovely dog indeed and I''m sure she will bring you many joys both in the show ring, and if it suits your fancy, some sort of sport as well. Good luck with her!
Yes but I did not sit here and belittle working dogs, which beleive me, I could, but I am a bigger person than that because I know there are die hard working dog fans on the board.
And yes, I might take this personally because I DO participate in dog shows and I do value them. I plan on being in the dog show world for years to come, so its a little dishearting to sit here while you basically say my show dogs aren't good enough to compare to your working dogs, and I hate to tell you, but they are.
And yes, I might take this personally because I DO participate in dog shows and I do value them. I plan on being in the dog show world for years to come, so its a little dishearting to sit here while you basically say my show dogs aren't good enough to compare to your working dogs, and I hate to tell you, but they are.
I did edit it but it was before you had your next post, must''ve posted it at the same time LOL Its just that she caught my eye again for like the 100th time so I felt compelled to say something. Ah well it happens
Even if her back was a touch shorter it would still look better to me than the over-done ones. Though do you think with a shorter back it might hinder her good rear-end angulation? I admit Rotties aren''t a breed I know much about but I sure do aesthetically(sp?) like your Spider.
Even if her back was a touch shorter it would still look better to me than the over-done ones. Though do you think with a shorter back it might hinder her good rear-end angulation? I admit Rotties aren''t a breed I know much about but I sure do aesthetically(sp?) like your Spider.
Yes we must of posted at the same time. lol.
No with a shorter back I dont think it would. That is one of her strong points, her movement & her solid topline. She floats around the ring. If the dog is balanced, and shorter backed, I dont think it should hurt at all. Thats a problem with the breed today, you get these long dogs that thier backs just keep going. I'd like to see a nice tight square, were as Spider is a rectangle.
No with a shorter back I dont think it would. That is one of her strong points, her movement & her solid topline. She floats around the ring. If the dog is balanced, and shorter backed, I dont think it should hurt at all. Thats a problem with the breed today, you get these long dogs that thier backs just keep going. I'd like to see a nice tight square, were as Spider is a rectangle.
Siiiiigh - long time lurker here. I don't usually feel the need to post, because I happen to have a twin (Tempura_Tantrum) that does that just fine, but I really can't let some of these things go.
A debate is one thing. Denigration is another. Please do not call *my* dogs, because I happen to compete in conformation on the odd weekend, "watered down nicey nice" dogs. My "watered down nicey nice dogs" are busy killing things in my backyard for fun. They are the wrong breed for 99% of the population - retaining the attributes, instincts, and traits that their ancestors did during the Joumon period, years before anyone was even THINKING of developing a crudload of the other breeds you see today. They are stubborn, independent, and drivey. They have movement that doesn't quit, and I should know, being a competitive division 1 cross country runner in college, who can still take her dogs out on a run. They are dogs that CHALLENGE you for authority constantly - don't let their size fool you - and they take a firm, but intelligent, competent hand. My dogs have all of this, and YE GODS, I happen to show them.
In other words, my watered down nicey nice dogs" are NOTHING OF THE SORT. Do not knock MY breed and ASSUME that just because somehow the people in Sibes or what have you have a breed split problem, that other people must have the same. As my sister pointed out before - in OUR breed, conformation AND ability AND temperament AND type were valued by the original breeders - so there certainly was no need for any conformation people to "water" them down. (Although we certainly started breeding for dogs that wouldn't bite the judges - because watered-down and inappropriately aggressive are two different things).
Anyway - I gotta say "watered down nicey nice" is probably the LEAST applicable description you could ever make in the context of the Shiba. It's so off of the mark, so completely off base, that I would find it funny except that dang it, I really do NOT appreciate people insulting my dogs. You might not have intended to mean Shibas specifically when you posted, but you know what, when you swept ALL conformation dogs into such a broad generalization, you included my breed too.
Think what you want, but at least don't perpetuate myths and stereotypes that are harmful to my breed. We do NOT need people looking at Shibas like they are lap dogs. (There's nothing wrong with lap dogs, but there is something wrong with getting a wild boar hunter and assuming that's what it will be).
A debate is one thing. Denigration is another. Please do not call *my* dogs, because I happen to compete in conformation on the odd weekend, "watered down nicey nice" dogs. My "watered down nicey nice dogs" are busy killing things in my backyard for fun. They are the wrong breed for 99% of the population - retaining the attributes, instincts, and traits that their ancestors did during the Joumon period, years before anyone was even THINKING of developing a crudload of the other breeds you see today. They are stubborn, independent, and drivey. They have movement that doesn't quit, and I should know, being a competitive division 1 cross country runner in college, who can still take her dogs out on a run. They are dogs that CHALLENGE you for authority constantly - don't let their size fool you - and they take a firm, but intelligent, competent hand. My dogs have all of this, and YE GODS, I happen to show them.
In other words, my watered down nicey nice dogs" are NOTHING OF THE SORT. Do not knock MY breed and ASSUME that just because somehow the people in Sibes or what have you have a breed split problem, that other people must have the same. As my sister pointed out before - in OUR breed, conformation AND ability AND temperament AND type were valued by the original breeders - so there certainly was no need for any conformation people to "water" them down. (Although we certainly started breeding for dogs that wouldn't bite the judges - because watered-down and inappropriately aggressive are two different things).
Anyway - I gotta say "watered down nicey nice" is probably the LEAST applicable description you could ever make in the context of the Shiba. It's so off of the mark, so completely off base, that I would find it funny except that dang it, I really do NOT appreciate people insulting my dogs. You might not have intended to mean Shibas specifically when you posted, but you know what, when you swept ALL conformation dogs into such a broad generalization, you included my breed too.
Think what you want, but at least don't perpetuate myths and stereotypes that are harmful to my breed. We do NOT need people looking at Shibas like they are lap dogs. (There's nothing wrong with lap dogs, but there is something wrong with getting a wild boar hunter and assuming that's what it will be).
Yes there is a problem with too long of a back too but in the one picture on your website where she is standing on grass she looked realy great! Like I said though, I dont know all the finer points that make a Rottie. I can work with them and love to handle them but at this point dont know enough to evaluate one physically.
Anyways I think we are straying a lil off topic (my bad). In the end I suppose we just gotta agree to disagree No hard feelings I hope. But now I must be off to bed, its been a long day.
Anyways I think we are straying a lil off topic (my bad). In the end I suppose we just gotta agree to disagree
No hard feelings I hope. But now I must be off to bed, its been a long day.
Go Ariel go! Preach it sister! Preach it!
Thanks for the compliments again Ocean, but I still do take to heart some of the things you have said about lumping all the conformation dogs into a problem that seems to be in BCs/Sibes or what have you.
Thats what I always say with Grace, agree to disagree. Hopefully this debate will go in the right direction .
Thanks for the compliments again Ocean, but I still do take to heart some of the things you have said about lumping all the conformation dogs into a problem that seems to be in BCs/Sibes or what have you.
Thats what I always say with Grace, agree to disagree. Hopefully this debate will go in the right direction .
Right. So you watched other people do it. Glad I got that one straight. Doing it yourself is a whole different ball game than standing ringside, clipping nails, and handing out drool rags...
Siiiigh. You just HAD to throw that in there, didn't you? Just couldn't let it slide. I already mentioned once I found this sort of attitude only completely counterproductive to a friendly debate. Everyone else managed to have differing opinions without dragging others dogs into it. May I politely suggest you do the same? It's no water off of my back if another person is unable to breed dogs that excel in both function and conformation- but don't denigrate MY dogs because they can.
Nevermind the multitude of times I've posted on this thread, indeed this entire FORUM about how this sort of attitude is EXACTLY what hurts MY breed. We DON'T need a bunch of yahoos running around talking about Shibas as if they were fluffy lap dogs. This is how Shibas end up in shelters- people get the idea that these dogs are nothing but pretty little ornaments, and are then surprised when they have minds of their own, are incredibly stubborn, difficult to train, and will disembowel anything in your house that squeeks (without appropriate training). Please stick with what you know OC...(Shibas aren't included).
Siiiigh. You just HAD to throw that in there, didn't you? Just couldn't let it slide. I already mentioned once I found this sort of attitude only completely counterproductive to a friendly debate. Everyone else managed to have differing opinions without dragging others dogs into it. May I politely suggest you do the same? It's no water off of my back if another person is unable to breed dogs that excel in both function and conformation- but don't denigrate MY dogs because they can.
Nevermind the multitude of times I've posted on this thread, indeed this entire FORUM about how this sort of attitude is EXACTLY what hurts MY breed. We DON'T need a bunch of yahoos running around talking about Shibas as if they were fluffy lap dogs. This is how Shibas end up in shelters- people get the idea that these dogs are nothing but pretty little ornaments, and are then surprised when they have minds of their own, are incredibly stubborn, difficult to train, and will disembowel anything in your house that squeeks (without appropriate training). Please stick with what you know OC...(Shibas aren't included
).
And this is exactly how I feel. Which is why I obtain my dogs from breeders who DO breed for the total package.
Just thought I'd throw a few of these in here as well: more "watered down sissy show dogs" (yes...these are show dogs)
Hunting small game in Australia: This photo courtesy of Shinto Shibas
Hunting in Japan- this young b!tch flushed the pheasant at right, which her owner promptly shot. A versatile hunting breed, to say the least.
Just thought I'd throw a few of these in here as well: more "watered down sissy show dogs" (yes...these are show dogs)
Hunting small game in Australia: This photo courtesy of Shinto Shibas
Hunting in Japan- this young b!tch flushed the pheasant at right, which her owner promptly shot. A versatile hunting breed, to say the least.
Yes the rarer breeds do have the advantage that not many breeders have gotten their hands on turning them into a show dog and still maintain many of their originally-bred-for qualities, the Shiba included. But what''s in store in merely 10 years down the road when their popularity rises and more show breeders that care more about ribbons than function begin breeding them? Its sad to think about but unless something is done to maintain their working qualities such as having the requirements that Europe does to show, I wouldn''t be surprised if there is a split in the breed too. I''m not saying that YOU dont work to maintain these qualities, but alas not everyone cares about more than ribbons and getting that winning title. Once upon a time a Dacshund that entered the show ring and won a Best in Show or heck even just Group placing, the next day could effectively hunt Badger and be the best dog out there. Now a days, with their shorter legs and other tranformations sending a show doxie down a Badger hole is almost a death sentence. Yet Europe doesn''t have this problem....hmmmm interesting.
*sigh* anyways I''m done with this thread. As much as i have enjoyed it in the beginning now people are taking things way too close to the heart. I''ve stated my opinion and it remains as such. If anybody wants to continue this firther with me they can PM me.
*sigh* anyways I''m done with this thread. As much as i have enjoyed it in the beginning now people are taking things way too close to the heart. I''ve stated my opinion and it remains as such. If anybody wants to continue this firther with me they can PM me.