Rosettes to Ruin

Miakoda

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#1
Click on link for pictures with the text. ;)

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm



Rosettes to Ruin:

Making & Breaking Dogs in the Show Ring




Changes in the shape of the Bull Terrier head, 1930, 1950, 1980
Photos courtesy of the Albert Heim Foundation for Canine Research, Basil, Switzerland

The pictures above are a physical and visible monument to what the show ring did to one terrier breed in less than 50 years time.

Bulldog and terrier crosses, which once had powerful jaws well-placed to do important work (gripping and holding semi-wild bulls and pigs so they could be altered or slaughtered), were rapidly transformed at the turn of the 20th Century to the point that the jaws of today's Bull Terrier, while still massive, are now no longer set at a proper angle to do the work the dogs were once bred to do.

If you look at the Fox Terrier, you will see a similar transformation over time -- once small and supple dogs transformed into large, stiff-legged creatures unable to move properly in the field and with chests too deep for the animal to go to ground after fox.

This is what show ring breeders do -- they ruin working breeds. And it is not just the AKC show ring, either -- it's the UKC show ring and the JRTCA show ring as well. Give any show ring enough time, and it will ruin any breed of working dog -- it always has and it always will.

Go through John Broadhurst's excellent new book, "Terriermen & Terriers" (ISBN 0-0687296-1-4) and look for Welsh Terriers, Border Terriers, Wire Fox Terriers, Smooth Fox Terriers, Cairn Terriers, Lakelands, Skye Terriers, West Highland White Terriers, Cairn Terriers.

They are simply NOT there.

Instead you see terriers that are not registered or are unregisterable -- Jack Russells, Fell Terriers, Fell-Border crosses, and the black Fells called Patterdales. There's even a Dachshund. The only terrierman named working a Kennel Club breed (53 terriermen are profiled) is a single fellow who recounts a Border Terrier story that is now more than 30 years old.

"Working" terrier breeds? Ha! It seems they are all gone -- shot dead by the show ring.

Former AKC President Kenneth Marden has acknowledged the role of the show ring in killing off working breeds:

"We [the AKC] have gotten away from what dogs were originally bred for. In some cases we have paid so much attention to form that we have lost the use of the dog."



I should say!

In the February 13, 2002 edition of The New Republic magazine there is an article entitled "The Westminster Eugenics Show" in which the author writes of the Search And Rescue dogs trotted into the Westminster Ring in New York after the September 11th terrorists brought down to the twin towers of the World Trade Center:

"The problem is that Westminster does not judge breeds for those traits which rightly make a breed a breed. The Pointers aren't asked to point (even though the logo of the Westminster Kennel Club has been a pointing Pointer for over a century). The Bassets and Bloodhounds do not track. The Otter Hounds are not tested to see if they could kill, let alone identify, an otter. And so on and so on.

"With the exception of a handful of breeds who were bred to do nothing but either keep your hands warm or wait until some Aztec chef could cook them, not a single breed at Westminster is expected to do what it was bred to do. The beautiful German Shepherd in the competition last night no doubt looked at the visiting search-and-rescue dogs the way Alec Baldwin looks at people who actually know how to read, and said, 'I wish I could be like them.'

"The cohost of the Westminster broadcast repeatedly declared 'This is not a beauty contest... because we have definitions for how a dog is supposed to look and feel.'

"Someone needs to tell this blow-dried Afghan-breeder that that makes it more of a beauty contest, not less of one. Simply writing down the criteria does not make a pageant any less of a pageant."





The number of working dogs ruined by the show ring grows every year.

Irish Setters, once famed at finding birds, are now so brain-befogged they can no longer find the front door. Cocker Spaniels, once terrific pocket-sized birds dogs, have been reduced to poodle-coated mops incapable of working their way through a field or fence row. Fox terriers are now so large they cannot go down a fox hole. Saint Bernards, once proud pulling dogs, are now so riddled with hip dysplasia that it's hard to find one that can walk without surgery in old age.

In recent years, protectors of at least two working breeds -- the Border Collie and the Jack Russell Terrier -- have gone to war with the AKC in an effort to protect the working qualities of their dogs.

Unfortunately, those seeking to protect the gene pool of working dogs -- and the tradition of breeding worker to worker -- lost and both breeds are now found in the AKC show ring. While there are still working Border Collies and working Jack Russell Terriers, the number of honest working dogs of either breed in the AKC show ring is small and is falling rapidly. In time it is likely that these two breeds will in fact split off from their working roots as has happened with gun dogs where there are "working" labs and "show labs" and "working" pointers and "show" pointers.

Lesson One in the world of dogs is that if you put anything above breeding for utility, you will start to lose working abilities.

Work is a tough task master and it shows no favoritism. Fox and pheasant do not judge "up the leash" nor are they taken in by fads. Quarry is not much interested in nose or eye color, the set of the ear, or the "expression" on a dog's face as it creeps up a hedgerow.

In working dogs, utility is beauty, and "beauty is as beauty does."

E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

A noted breeder of alpacas said much the same thing, noting that when farm stock is judged on the basis of wool or meat it is a different standard than that used at shows:

"Breeding animals for the shows is a very peculiar business, because of the fact that it is wholly competitive. Whereas the breeder of utility sheep or utility pigs produces something that has a certain market value, which is not changed very much even if ten of his neighbors start in with him to raise the same sort of sheep or hogs, breeding animals for the shows can only pay the man who succeeds in producing such stock as is pronounced by the judges of the moment to be the most beautiful and the most fashionable."




The "judge of the moment" in a show ring may know very little about real terrier work.

In the AKC, for example, most judges are experts in a half dozen breeds. In the terrier ring, it's almost a guarantee none has ever owned a deben collar or cut a shoulder into a trench in order to get down another two feet. As a rule these authorities are experts by dint of having spent far too many nights in bad hotels attending show trials. In 20 years of owning dogs, they have logged a thousand miles bouncing around show rings in plaid skirts and blue blazers. They may have driven to the moon and back to pick up rosettes, but few have driven 10 miles out into the country to even see a fox den, much less put a dog down one or dig to it.

A few will claim expertise because they have bought an airplane ticket and attended a mounted hunt or two in the U.K.. They have seen "the real thing" they will tell you, and know what is required of a working dog thanks to their two-week vacation in Scotland! Just don't ask them how to extract quarry from the stop-end of a pipe or how to treat a bite wound.

Theory always ends where reality begins, and it always seems to have been this way.

The very first Kennel Club shows occurred in 1873 in the U.K., and 1874 in the U.S.. By 1893 Rawdon Lee Briggs was writing in his book, "Modern Dogs," that:

"I have known a man act as a judge of fox terriers who had never bred one in his life, had never seen a fox in front of hounds, had never seen a terrier go to ground ... had not even seen a terrier chase a rabbit."
 

Miakoda

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#2
By the AKC's own estimates, a majority of newcomers to the sport, obsessed with championship ribbons, stick with it an average of five years. When they give up or move on to a new hobby, they leave behind a trail of dogs that were not systematically bred to do a job -- they were bred to produce ribbons and often by people who never completely finished reading a book on their own breed.

Most of these back-yard-and-hobby-show-breeders do not do any genetic testing on their dogs, and when asked are quick to say their bumbling acquiescence to the destruction of a working breed is OK because "No one's hunting birds to feed their families any more," "We don't need strong jaws on a bull terrier, we have barbed wire now" "No one hunts fox anymore -- it's illegal in the UK you know."

I would suggest to these people that they get deeply involved in breeds that are not working breeds -- ****-zoos, Peeking-ease, or Pappy-yawns, perhaps. Miniature Schnauzers or Minature Pinschers are nice dogs -- give them a try. Or better yet, get a dog from the local shelter and train it in to a high degree of perfection in agility, flyball or even circus tricks.

But please stay away from breeds that are working dogs!

As for those actually interested in terriers as working dogs (and if not, please read the paragraph above), we would do well to remember that we did not create these wonderful little dogs, and we do not 'own' a breed anymore than we 'own' anything in this world. Like most worthy things, we inherit our dogs from our forbears, serve as custodians for their gene pool in our lifetime, and have a responsibility to pass on this gene pool in a reasonably good condition for the future.

In the modern world, passing on the gene pool means breeding dogs that are the correct size as determined after you have done some real earth work.

It also means doing genetic testing (CERF, OFA, BAER) before breeding any litter.

For those looking to buy a terrier -- especially a Jack Russell or Border Terrier which are two breeds which still have some pretensions to being working dogs -- I would suggest embracing a working standard, not only for the dog but for the BREEDER as well. If the breeder doesn't own a deben collar, a $50 shovel, and a digging bar, I would suggest giving that kennel a pass. Ask to see pictures of the sire or dam in the field. No pictures, no cash.

A serious breeder takes the work of their dogs seriously, and a serious breeder will work their dogs at least a few times just to make sure they have the drive, the size and the temperament to actually do the job.

The standard for a working terrier is NOT in the ring, but in the field and it is only in the field that a dog can be judged worthy of being bred.

I close with the very succinct and dead-on standard for working terriers published by The Fell and Moorland Working Terrier Club in their "Year Book and Club History: 1998-99". No better parody of the Kennel Club "standard" exists, nor does it leave out a single thing required of a working terrier.

A Working Terrier Standard


A working terrier should be terrier-like in appearance and should have an acute and powerful motivation to work.


HEAD: should be strong, and encased in the skull should be a brain capable of showing intelligence and a fair amount of obedience and respect with some affection.

NECK: should be strong and muscular, joining the head to the body.

CHEST: should be big enough to hold the heart of a lion, but small enough to enable its owner to follow the quarry into extremely tight corners.

LEGS: should be long, or short, according to the work envisaged by the terrain of the area where he is to be employed. The legs should be powerful enough to carry the owner through a hard day.

FEET: four, one at the end of each leg, with extremely tough pads.

COAT: whether rough or smooth, white or colored, should be dense and tight, to keep its wearer warm and facilitate cleaning without holding too much earth and water.
BACK: strong and supple.

TAIL: for preference, a working terrier should have a tail.

EYES: of great assistance above ground.

EARS: yes, two.

NOSE: should be able to detect and evaluate any slight scent.

TEETH: should be as large and as strong as possible, firmly secured in a muscular jaw, capable of biting powerfully and holding a firm grip.

In temperament, the animal should be fairly docile and tractable, with a tremendous staying power and great love of his task. He should enjoy going to ground and should not appear at 10 minute intervals to see if his owner is still waiting for him. He should disregard wounds and see his job through at all times. He should be of sensible disposition and not easily ruffled or upset.









Show ring bulldog skull
This is a long way from a working dog!
 

adojrts

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#5
Patrick Burns and his website Working Terriers is awesome. This article has been on my fav's list for years (easy to print off then lol and had out to folks).
I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Burns, his knowledge and opinions are worth listening to.
I know to many working terriermen that have little or no use for the showring, and I agree with them. Especially since I breed for performance and the working field.


stevinski, a friend of mine just imported several working Border Terriers from Ireland. He searched all over N.A and couldn't find what he was looking for, so he made the trip there, went hunting, THEN came home with dogs. He wasn't willing to take anyones word that they had working earth dogs, he wanted proof, he also wanted to see what kind of earth working dog he was investing in i.e hard or soft, bay or draw etc.
I've been out hunting with two of his BT's that he imported, very nice little girls, excellent workers as well. But they look very different from BT's that I have seen bred from show lines, but I guess that it is the same with all working breeds........working vs show lol.

Take care
Lynn
 
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#6
Thanks for posting that Miakoda. My dogs are not 'accepted' by the AKC, thankfully, but even so, I can see a great difference in Shiva, whose father was a show dog from Brazil, and Kharma, who is purely from working lines. I love them both dearly, but I would far rather be out alone, late at night, walking Kharma than Shiva.
 

Miakoda

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#7
Patrick Burns and his website Working Terriers is awesome. This article has been on my fav's list for years (easy to print off then lol and had out to folks).
I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Burns, his knowledge and opinions are worth listening to.
I know to many working terriermen that have little or no use for the showring, and I agree with them. Especially since I breed for performance and the working field.


stevinski, a friend of mine just imported several working Border Terriers from Ireland. He searched all over N.A and couldn't find what he was looking for, so he made the trip there, went hunting, THEN came home with dogs. He wasn't willing to take anyones word that they had working earth dogs, he wanted proof, he also wanted to see what kind of earth working dog he was investing in i.e hard or soft, bay or draw etc.
I've been out hunting with two of his BT's that he imported, very nice little girls, excellent workers as well. But they look very different from BT's that I have seen bred from show lines, but I guess that it is the same with all working breeds........working vs show lol.

Take care
Lynn
This site has been bookmarked as a "favorite" of mine for some time now. I agree with you that it is a great read because it's full of facts & easy for everyone to read. Plus, the pictures are great & self explanatory.

The book is wonderful.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#8
I didn't know this forum allowed kennel club bashing. I take offence to this, because even thou my dogs come from show line bred dogs, there is not a doubt in my mind that my dogs could go out and do the task they were bred for.

Alot of people who are so "anti shows" fail to see this, and its really a sad thing when you are so against something, you cant see the good in anything.

ETA: My dog is more than just a pretty face.
 

Miakoda

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I didn't know this forum allowed kennel club bashing. I take offence to this, because even thou my dogs come from show line bred dogs, there is not a doubt in my mind that my dogs could go out and do the task they were bred for.

Alot of people who are so "anti shows" fail to see this, and its really a sad thing when you are so against something, you cant see the good in anything.

ETA: My dog is more than just a pretty face.
I'm just curious how you would really know without ever working/testing them? IMO, that kind of information can NOT be known just by wanting to believe it so.

And I am not bashing your dogs. I'm just saddened that working breeds are no longer true working breeds & the differences b/n dogs bred strictly for show & dogs bred for work are undeniable. Look at the GSD, the Greyhound, etc.

IMO, kennel clubs should judge working dogs based on working ability & well as graded on their structural physique since they are in the business of judging "breeding quality" animals.
 
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#10
I also think Rotties might be less susceptible to improper breeding for shows than other breeds. There is definitely still a market for good, protection dogs with a sound temperament. They need a solid temperament due to their large size. Plus, there is little room on a rottie to exaggerate, except for size, and that wont take away their ability to defend a home to a huge degree.

There are breeds of dog in which the show lines are all but useless to their original purpose. American Cockers, Irish Setters and some lines of Labrador. I have personally thrown Pheasant wings to my sister's Cocker, who sniffed it once and walked the other way. Its a nice dog, but there is no way that they should be considered a sporting dog, in any way.

The author of this article poses and interesting point elsewhere on his site. Many terrier standards state that the dog must be capable of going to ground. Still, the majority of show terriers are TOO BIG to fit in a fox hole. It is relatively easy to measure a terrier and see if it will fit, and yet they are all TOO BIG. Why? Show breeding.

It may not be every breed, but many dogs have been so far removed from their roots in structure or temperament that they are no longer the original breed.
 

SizzleDog

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#11
I agree with both "parties" - the article definitely has it's strong points, and it's an important read for all dog enthusiasts... especially those who are in it to better the breeds.

That said, I also agree somewhat with Sunnierhawk. Not all breeds are being hurt by the show ring. Many breeds are doing just fine, in spite of conformation showing. I invite you to read this thread, and then try to tell me that my "wimpy, watered-down, show-bred, prancing around the ring" Dobermans have lost their ability to do the job they were bred for - personal protection.

Also, many breeds are not practical for "modern day". The original Doberman Pinscher was a fierce and malicious creature... a dog that would happily bite its master, that only the firmest handler could safely manage... in short, they were a menace! They were almost too good at their job! I've heard stories of early Dobermans *not being felt over* by judges, simply because the dog was too aggressive to be touched safely by the judge. I've also heard that the pretty "flip finish" was invented as a necessity by the U.S. Army, all because the Doberman k-9s they were using at the time had a habit of biting their own handler in the rear as they walked behind to come about at heel. The flip finish kept those lethal teeth in front (and incontrol) of the soldier at all times.

Do we need Dobermans like that today? Do we want it?

I think not. In most cases, I think not.

Or do we want a tempered, calmer, more discerning Doberman that will think *before* it bites? A Doberman that respects its owner a bit more? A Doberman that can do its job *better* than its ancestors, simply because the definition of "personal protection" has changed over the past century?

I think so.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#12
Mia,

I live with my dogs day in and day out, and just like Sizzle's dobe's protected her today, I know without a doubt, my dogs would protect me if a situation arose. I have seen them do so already. I dont need to take my girl out and get a title to prove it.

And I will also say that some breeds are not effected as much as some others, Grace and I had a long debate over this on yahoo the other night lol. But to lump *all* breeds being ruined by certain kennel clubs, is something I just dont agree with.

Sizzle, we are going thru the same thing with Rotties. Breeding a "softer" temp. for the show ring/everyday world. And honestly, with all the BSL & laws coming up, I think its for thier own good. While the temp. may be a softer one, it doesnt mean its completley ruined, and as I stated before, I know my girls would/will protect me if I need for them to.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#13
I first read that article years back. My reaction now is much like it was before - I can see the reasoning behind what is being said, but I don't know what we could do to truly keep the "dog of old".

I agree that most breeds are being altered by the show ring. The drive for finding a particular look, a "winning" look, pushes too many breeders into forgetting about what the dog is supposed to be. As long as the breed standards are so open to interpretation, and no proof of instinct or workability is necessary in order to earn a championship, we will continue to see dogs bred primarily for looks.

The problem I see is that the original purpose many dogs were bred for is no longer necessary or even desired in today's world. Proving your dog can do what the breed was originally bred for is not practical in many breeds. If only those with the access and capabilities to prove original working ability in their dogs bred we'd soon have a mighty small gene pool in most working breeds. And what about dogs that were bred to do things like fight other dogs? Do we really want to prove that they still can? In the modern world there is no place for a dog-aggressive dog.

I would love to see some proof of health, temperament, intelligence and athletic ability to be required before a dog (of any breed) could be issued a "championship". I see too many breeds that are truly a mockery of what they once were. I don't like what I see in the typical German shepherd bred specifically for show. I am appalled by a number of chows in the show ring - some are so heavy-headed you can't see their eyes, and some can barely be touched by judges. And yet judges keep putting them up and people keep breeding for a certain "look" because it wins. It's a vicious circle.

I don't know what the answer can be. Personally I won't ever buy from a breeder who puts looks above everything else. And if I ever breed, the championship show ring will not be how I measure quality - I would breed a dog without a championship but would never breed a dog without performance titles or working ability (regardless of breed). Temperament, intelligence, health and athleticism come first and a show championship is way down the line (adhering to the essence of the breed standard - always remembering what the breed was originally designed to do - is of course always in mind regardless of show results).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

RD

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#14
I also think Rotties might be less susceptible to improper breeding for shows than other breeds. There is definitely still a market for good, protection dogs with a sound temperament. They need a solid temperament due to their large size. Plus, there is little room on a rottie to exaggerate, except for size, and that wont take away their ability to defend a home to a huge degree.

There are breeds of dog in which the show lines are all but useless to their original purpose. American Cockers, Irish Setters and some lines of Labrador. I have personally thrown Pheasant wings to my sister's Cocker, who sniffed it once and walked the other way. Its a nice dog, but there is no way that they should be considered a sporting dog, in any way.

The author of this article poses and interesting point elsewhere on his site. Many terrier standards state that the dog must be capable of going to ground. Still, the majority of show terriers are TOO BIG to fit in a fox hole. It is relatively easy to measure a terrier and see if it will fit, and yet they are all TOO BIG. Why? Show breeding.

It may not be every breed, but many dogs have been so far removed from their roots in structure or temperament that they are no longer the original breed.
:hail:

Couldn't agree more. I know not *all* breeds are affected in a negative way by breeding for show, but there are some that really get nailed because of it. Some breeds were just not meant to be bred for anything but their JOB.
 
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#15
YES!!!!!!!!! The OP is a FANTASTIC post and I couldn't agree more!!!!! Working dogs are going further and furth down hill thanks to the show world ruinging them. GSDs that are so crippled they couldnt work sheep for even an hour!!!! Siberian Huskies that have NO desire to pull or run but just to stand and look pretty. If my dog was like that (couldn't do the job his breed was intended for) I would be ashamed of him and shamed of the breeder for producing him and being proud of it. Ok, I know sometimes it happens that the odd dog even in a working litter may not pull through with his breed instincts...it happens, but if the whole litter and parents are like that, that is just SAD!!!!

And I must say I can not stand it when people say "I KNOW my dog would protect me" and state it as a fact when they have never been in the situation or when people say "I know my dog will protect me because he growled aggressively at someone who looked mean." Putting on a display is one thing, following through with the bite (and not out of fear) is a whole other matter! And what happens when the threat fights back and yells and hits your dog that is supposed to protect you??? Does he have the heart to continue his job or will he whimper and back down and let you handle it instead??? A buddy of mine from Portugal has caught supposed PP working dogs (and by caught I mean he was the dummy wearing the sleeve) and the dogs bit full and bit hard BUT when he then started threatening them with shouts and using the sound stick they let go and backed off!!!! So much for a PP dog....Do not state a fact unless you can prove it is all I'm saying...

And take a look at this...ignore the grey bitch and look at the other 3 males...Three males from WORKING LINES ONLY, no show blood in them


Now look at my male from only show lines. There are SOME working line but not closer than 3 generations back.


Which one looks faster to you? Not prettier, but better suited to pulling "lightloads over long distances at a moderate speed" as it is stated in the SIberian Husky standard that they are supposed to be able to do and do best. And this isn't an isolated case, I see it all the time when I go to races. It is incredibly rare that a team composed of show dogs beat a team composed of working dogs.

And look at Alaskan Huskies - ONLY working lines since they are not a "breed" there is no such thing as shows for them. ALL of them do their job and do it well AND unless there is something wrong with the Alaskan Husky team or they run into trouble somehow they will pretty much ALWAYS beat a purebred team. A little food for thought...no? These are proven facts, not "well he looks the part so he could do it" optimistic views!
 

SizzleDog

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#16
oc, are you trying to say that my dogs should have bitten the guy?

That's crazy! They neutralized the threat without having to resort to biting. That shows AMAZING self restraint and solidity of temperament on their part - that is my opinion, as well as the opinion of many others. I don't want some hairtriggered, bite-happy robot of a dog, I want a personal protector... a dog that can accurately gauge the level of aggression needed and not go over that discernment unless it's required of them. Crazed biting is not a measure of protective worth - it tells me that the dog isn't (or is unable to be) in tune with the situation at hand. Here's an analogy for ya... I love analogies....

There are two judges. One judge hears each case presented to him justly and neutrally, then doles out the punishment based on the crime.

The other judge is unsure of himself, and his answer to every case he presides over is "death penalty for you!" or "life in prison, without parole!"

Which judge do you prefer?

Pulling heavy loads is one thing, potentially causing serious injury or death to a stranger who may or may not be a threat is another.
 

Laurelin

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#17
This seems to be redundant...

ETA: It's a good article, but it's not the know all end of discussion for me. Plenty of show dogs are capable in other fields. Not all, and not some breeds, but a lot are. It's tiring to hear the same thing over and over. This article was posted just a while back if I remember correctly.
 
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#18
No, your dogs may have done everything they should have done. But you can not say what your dogs would have done if the guy had a gun, an knife or a stick and he ran at you. They seem to be great dogs with a solid temperament, but until they are TRULY tested against an aggressor of some sort you can not be sure.

Yours responded properly, it is a credit to their breeding, there is not room for a dog that will bit indiscriminately, nevermind going after their owners. The dog was not changed for the show ring, a working protection dog should be a thinking dog. Breeders have in this case, gave the dog a better temperament. You can not say that all show dogs will or will not respond in the right way.

I will repeat myself from before. Personally, I don't think most protection dogs will face the same problems as the other breeds. Temperamentally, I think we are moving to 2 or 3 varieties of dog, with only visual differences. You have the guardian breeds, who will continue to guard. All other breeds will be reduced to a plodding, easy going housepet. They are easier to show and sell as pets when they do not look right. if it does not get that far, will be left with multi colored "poodles" of different breeds? Maybe we will still have some "terriers" for the families who want something with a bit of spunk for their kids.

Breeds do not all look identical, nor should they all act the same way. There are several breeds that are the prototypical housepet. If you want that, get one of those breeds, don't change the working breeds to make them easier to live with. Besides the Bull terriers, in which breeds is it irresponsible for the dog to have their traditional temperament? While we don't dog fight and bull bait any more, hunting with terriers is legal. Hunting with Pointers, setters, retrievers, and hounds is legal. Livestock guardian dogs are making a comeback. Some people require working dogs. Why should all these breeds be changed so they can stand in a ring and look prettier and be easier to sell?
 
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#19
I feel compelled to talk about terriers in particular. This is what the original authors specialty is, and in my mind the most clear example of show breeding ruining a working dog. I have done a bit of reading about terrier hunting, and while I'm certainly not an expert, I feel I can make the following comments.

To do its job, a terrier requires a high prey drive to chase its prey, some boldness to chase a fox down into a hole, and it needs to fit into the hole. Nothing else matters to the degree those 3 things do.A good nose is certainly required, but not if it cant fit into the hole. Ear carriage may keep them away from an angry fox, but to a working dog, a few stitches is not the end of the world.

Now, what do show and pet breeders want in terriers? They want a more placid animal that is easier to train, less likely to chase the cat, and one that looks good. So, already, jack russels have been already got a bad reputation for being hard to train. I'm sure that "good breeders" are working on that right now.

Size.

It seems few terriers over 12 inches can fit into a fox hole. Groundhogs and raccoons also use similar sized holes. Therefore, any hunting terrier should fit into that hole. They don't. The majority of all terrier breeds are too big to do their original purpose. Its not like temperament, or the greyhounds sprinting gait, you can measure a terrier in the ring. People don't. The bigger ones win since they look more impressive, and the breed gets bigger.

Why care?

1. People are always told to choose a breed carefully, so it fits their lifestyle, why then do we keep trying to change breeds to fit more people? Money? I thought breeding for profit was bad.

2. Why not a Poodle? Why not a Toy breed? They all do the same thing, sit on the floor, yap at intruders coming in the door, and cuddle up with you at night. Its not a bad job to have, but Terriers have a job, to chase game. If people want a pet terrier, they need to be sure they can handle it, for what it is. Why change a breed for the ring, and for pet ownership, when suitable dogs already exist for that.

3. Misrepresentation. Breed clubs plaster the breed history prominently on their websites and publications. They run hunting tests with holes several times too large, on lab rats. They are using the history and even mystique of the Terrier to sell something that is no longer a true terrier.

So instead of working dogs, terriers have been reduced to different colored non sporting dogs who can no longer do what they were created to do. This is not bettering a breed. Stop calling that. The terrier was created to hunt, if it can not hunt, it is not a terrier. It is ruined.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#20
Again Sizzle great post! Since our breeds are along the same lines, i feel you understand what Im trying to get across to people on this thread. Us bad Dobe and Rottie owners ;)

If I had been in Sizzle's situation, I too wouldn't want my dog to bite the guy, who was standing in my house. Now, if he was in my house trying to attack me, it would be a different story.

& I seriously doubt my dogs "put on a show".. you obviously dont live with a "guardian" breed with a correct temperment. I have been in more than 1 situation where my dog displayed excellent temperment and just like sizzle's dog, weren't attack crazed animals.

Why are so many people always trying to have this working vs. show debate? No one is going to change thier minds, or thier ideas, so its always a loss case to debate.
 

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