Rosettes to Ruin

[whatszmatter]

OC isn't too far off, she's right in saying that many dogs will bark growl and look like they're protecting and will run at the first sight that the attacker isn't afraid or puts pressure on them. Not saying your dog's should be out of control biting machines, and I'd say they acted appropriately in that situation, BUT over the past 10 years the number of Dobes that could withstand any type of threat by an attacker has gone down tremendously(from what i've witnessed), but there are still some good ones around.

SunnierhawkO, I agree, nobody is going to change their minds in regards to work or show, but until Championed show dogs have to go thru some testing and pressure to see how they can react and work, I'll continue to assume that most of them are what the owners want, pretty show pieces.

 

[RD]

In many cases, putting on a show is all that's necessary. My Border Collie is a pretty feisty little dog and he will NOT back down from a threat, however he doesn't go from sitting at my side to full-on attacking someone. Most people will move away at a growl or bark, and he knows this. My dog wasn't bred to protect (nor is he trained to do so) so I can't use him as an example of what I think ALL dogs should do, but I like that he uses the least amount of force necessary to get someone to back off. If someone that he deems suspicious moves towards me, he steps forward and glares at them. If they continue moving towards me he growls/barks/snarls. He doesn't back down until they do, but just because he isn't attacking them doesn't mean he'd tuck his tail and run if they got hostile.

I'll have a protection dog someday and to be honest, I would want a dog that reacts like one of Sizzle's dobermans and my own BC - alert, watchful and observant, with a keen sense of people. I admire a dog that can read people well enough to know if a growl will get them to back off, or if force will be necessary. I like a dog that thinks about its "tactics" before it acts, especially in a situation where the percieved threat is not acting hostile.

For the most part, Whatz, I agree with you. However, since I'm involved primarily in one breed and don't get to temperament-test others, I can't say I know anything with certainty. I do know that a good percentage of my breed has been ruined by show breeders, but perhaps working ability in border collies is more easily destroyed than it is in dogs bred to protect. Herding instinct is a myriad of complex behaviors all delicately combined, and the genetics behind those behaviors are still unknown. This is why working breeders breed their best to the best, and hope for the best. Working dogs (not working BRED, but actual working dogs) bred to other working dogs will usually produce working dogs. They haven't gone wrong yet. The show breeders have.

 

[squirtsmom]

Interesting.

 

[whatszmatter]

I do know that a good percentage of my breed has been ruined by show breeders, but perhaps working ability in border collies is more easily destroyed than it is in dogs bred to protect.

I wish that were the case, but working behaviors in any breed is easily destroyed when that is the last consideration in breeding and color patterns, pigment, and other looks become the most important.

I saw an intersting read on the differences in herding styles and protective styles among the various herding and guarding dogs, but i'll be damned if I can find it now. It really went into the different drives and temperments of the various breeds generally speaking. I usually remember stuff like that, but all I can remember from this one is that it was very interesting. Big help huh?

 

[Zoom]

Keep thinking about that aricle, Whatz, I'm interested to read it.

 

[stevinski]

stevinski, a friend of mine just imported several working Border Terriers from Ireland. He searched all over N.A and couldn't find what he was looking for, so he made the trip there, went hunting, THEN came home with dogs. He wasn't willing to take anyones word that they had working earth dogs, he wanted proof, he also wanted to see what kind of earth working dog he was investing in i.e hard or soft, bay or draw etc.
I've been out hunting with two of his BT's that he imported, very nice little girls, excellent workers as well. But they look very different from BT's that I have seen bred from show lines, but I guess that it is the same with all working breeds........working vs show lol.

when i say my harley has got working lines in him, i mean like way back in his pedigree.
I would love to see some in action!

 

[whatszmatter]

i'm looking

 

[RD]

I wish that were the case, but working behaviors in any breed is easily destroyed when that is the last consideration in breeding and color patterns, pigment, and other looks become the most important.

I saw an intersting read on the differences in herding styles and protective styles among the various herding and guarding dogs, but i'll be damned if I can find it now. It really went into the different drives and temperments of the various breeds generally speaking. I usually remember stuff like that, but all I can remember from this one is that it was very interesting. Big help huh?

Makes sense. Do you think taking appearance into consideration at all is detrimental to your breed (sorry, I forget what you have.. GSD?) For a while I liked the idea of Border Collies being bred for "versatility", but then I realized that every time a potential breeding animal is culled due to an undesirable appearance, the chance to produce really great stockdogs is lost. The best combination to produce good working pups is not always the best combination to produce good looking pups, and so often people will settle for mediocrity in the working department so long as they can have excellent looking dogs. The versatility breeders have bred dogs that can do some AKC herding (cough... obedience on sheep.) but I've never seen an AKC champion in USBCHA Open, or working long days on a farm. It's just not what they're bred for anymore. They can't handle it physically (heavy bone, over-angulated shoulders, too short hocks, too much coat etc) and they no longer have the instinct and brains to be able to handle it mentally.

I'm interested in seeing that article too. I'm very familiar with BCs but quite uneducated on most other herding breeds. The only thing I know about most of them is that I like them.

ETA: I don't see this as a show vs. working debate. There's nothing to debate, honestly. IMO, some breeds simply cannot be bred for appearance and working ability at the same time. The best of both worlds is not possible to achieve on a consistent basis. I will, however, argue with the people who insist that their show dogs can do everything a working bred dog can. I'm not talking about Sizzle or Ryan or anyone on Chaz. I'm mainly referring to the people who live near me, who think their show-line Aussies are brilliant workers. Truth be told, my 9 week old pup shows more competence when working my PAPILLON.

 

[Gempress]

*dons infamous Devil's Advocate hat*

Random comment....why is it so important to keep ALL specimens of a breed "work-worthy"?

Think of your average dog owner. Usually living in suburbia, small acreage, or even an apartment. What would such a person need with a dog that was keen on sheep? Or capable of fetching a duck? Or digging a fox out of its lair?

The plain fact is that 95% of modern dog owners are not capable of handling working-drive dogs. Period. Even on this forum, we usually advise people against getting working line shepherds, labs, border collies, etc., as "ordinary" pets. So why are we angry at the show ring for softening these traits?

Most of us on here, quite frankly, own breeds that would probably be too intense for us to handle if they were of true, original working quality. I know many of us love to think that our dogs have the qualities needed to work, but in all honesty, I'm sure that precious few of our pets would ever make it when put through real working training.

That's not to say I'm against the whole concept of the working dog. I just don't really have a problem with show lines having that drive diluted....as long as there are real working dog lines still out there. For example, take the difference between show and field labs.

Now, dogs that are so structurally unsound that health/mobility issues are rampant, I'm against. Like the problems with many of the giant breeds. But aside from that, I don't understand what the big deal is.

 

[whatszmatter]

you'll have to give me some time on that article, I read it a long time ago, had it saved on a computer of mine at one time, but thing has long since died, so I don't have a link. I'll check thru my stuff at home tonight, I'm pretty sure I printed it off as well, I could at least scan it then.

anyway, yes I think when you take only appearance into consideration or that becomes your priority it does hurt. This is a big debate in GSD circles. I've seen some very very good showline GSD's so I know there are some out there. I think "working" people tend to breed what works for them. I can tell you with GSD's, I have never mistaken a working line GSD for another breed cause they aren't confomationally show winners. I understand having a conformation standard, but I think its been taken too far. Max warned of this in his book written way back when.

This could be a really deep discussion as there are many factors. I can see a lot of both sides as well as I work with both show and working, but my preference is 100% in the working lines.

Show people say that they are breeding the dog that max envisioned. I only have to look at a picture from 1920 and can see visually this is not true. But looks aren't everything. A lot of show breeders also say that they have a dog that can work and is conforationally correct, and can live in the house, where as workingline dogs are too "crazy" to live in the house and are ugly. Max von Stephanitz said they should be able to live in the home. But he also lived in a time when the dogs had to be out working the herds ALL DAY long then coming home and protecting the home and its master. Not in a crate all day then when we get home from work expect it to act like a well behaved dog. I say the "crazy" working dogs are what Max envisioned, some people just aren't giving these dogs the right type of environment in which to grow.

A lot argue that "those" original dogs don't have a place in our society. I would heavily argue against that. The desire to chase, to protect territory, protect family members, to hunt, is exactly why I love my dogs. I love all dogs, but really love mine. If I didn't want that in a dog I wouldn't change it or try to breed it out of them, cause then what do you have??? Its not a dog. That's why it always gets me that people want something that looks like a GSD, but isn't. They want the ideas that come with owning one, but not the true ownership and responsibilty of having one. Does that make sense?

With the GSD you have some distinct seperations, but a common history. There is a big difference between the american and german showlines, then you have th working and show split. There are many others that have written on the GSD that have much more experience and knowledge than I. I guess I have so many things going thru my head right now I'm having trouble getting them all together in a coherent structure.

I guess I'm not that familiar with other breeds either, but GSD's have a reputation for being able to do anything. They got this reputation by continutally working and testing and evaluating their breeding stock. They tested it, worked it and pressured it to see where the breed was going and what needed to be fixed. They didn't get the reputation of being able to protect the herd, protect the master, protect the farm, lead the blind, find the lost, find the drugs or bombs by breeding to conformation standards first and foremost.

 

[ToscasMom]

I can really relate to what Gempress is saying here. I love Collies but I could never handle a working collie. It would be an absolutely foolish match for me, so my Collie comes from show lines. Now, if I WANTED a working Collie, I would look for one from that stock, but I don't. So having both show and working lines gives everybody something. I really do think that if all dogs were bred for working only, very few families would be able to keep their dogs and more would end up in shelters. The majority of dog owners are not hunters and don't live on farms where there are sheep. There are no sheep where I live, so what would I do with a collie with strong herding instinct. Most dog owers are also not into things like agility or other competitive dog programs. They are into having a family pet. If we only bred for the qualities the dog was originally intended for, very few people would be able to add very many breeds to their families that they could live with.

 

[RD]

I guess I'm not that familiar with other breeds either, but GSD's have a reputation for being able to do anything. They got this reputation by continutally working and testing and evaluating their breeding stock. They tested it, worked it and pressured it to see where the breed was going and what needed to be fixed. They didn't get the reputation of being able to protect the herd, protect the master, protect the farm, lead the blind, find the lost, find the drugs or bombs by breeding to conformation standards first and foremost.

THIS is what I was trying to say in a previous post and just wiped it out because it was making no sense. I absolutely agree.

The Border Collie is also an extremely versatile dog - I can't think of anything that a medium-sized dog can physically do that a Border Collie doesn't excel at. However, now there are people trying to breed specifically for that versatility (basically, a jack of all trades and master of none. these people also breed for conformation.) when the dogs bred as sheepdogs NATURALLY had it. Funny thing is, some of these dogs bred for versatility are having trouble doing what the actual working dogs can.

As for people not being able to handle working-bred dogs, I can't speak for all breeds but with Border Collies, I find the working dogs to be the most sane. Often times, people will see dogs with prick ears and slick coats at agility trials; they're usually spinning in circles or barking their heads off. Some of them might crouch down and give you the "eye" when you walk by. Those aren't working bred Border Collies, in most cases. Those are dogs bred for sport, with drive emphasised more than anything else. They have very little impulse control, and honestly very little brains or anything else to keep them in check. Yet, people call these working Border Collies. Truth is, they'd be murderous or uncontrollable on livestock. No farmer would put up with a dog like that.

Working dogs get the reputation of being difficult to control, crazy, hyper and unstable as pets when to be quite frank, it's the dogs that have strayed from their original purpose that are like that. I've met a lot of working BCs and I've never met one that was any more "wild" than some of the sporter collies I know.

As for the show-bred dogs, WHY get that breed then, if you just want a laid back pet? If people want Golden Retrievers, why don't they get one? If they want a Golden in a BC or GSD suit, then I feel that these bred-down dogs should be considered a separate breed so as not to confuse them with their working counterparts. Let's be realistic, when someone thinks of a Border Collie they think of this:

rather than this:

...that's not the direction we want the breed to go in. If people want to breed dogs like the first one, fine, but for the love of God, please don't call them Border Colles...

And btw, it is entirely possible to get an extremely calm, pet-quality dog from a working litter. Not all puppies in working litters turn out to have good working potential, and some of these can make the best pets.

 

[Gempress]

If they want a Golden in a BC or GSD suit, then I feel that these bred-down dogs should be considered a separate breed so as not to confuse them with their working counterparts.

Ah, but it's considered irresponsible to create a new breed. After all, we have over 500 breeds. Why do we need any more? BTW, I got those statements from this thread:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45816

I'm sorry, I just had to point out a bit of hypocrasy in the dog world sense of thinking. Suppossedly, creating new breeds is irresponsible because there are no "empty spots" left for a new dog breed to fill. But these diluted-drive dogs are obviously finding a niche somewhere, or they wouldn't be so incredibly popular that they're edging out the working types!

So we complain when modern society takes dogs away from their "true working roots", yet we complain when people try to create new breeds (or alter lines of existing breeds) that might possibly fill that space. Lose/lose situation.

 

[RD]

Slapping a new name on one side of a deeply segregated, existing breed is not creating a new one.

What I found irresponsible in the thread you linked to is starting up a huge breeding program, breeding hundreds of dogs and substantially adding to the mutt population for no purpose, or for a purpose that could be filled by an existing breed.

ETA: As for the companionship thing, I really don't understand why people who want a low drive, mellow dog want a working breed to begin with. There are SO MANY breeds, why choose that one when it's incompatible with your lifestyle? It's like getting a Fila and expecting it to be a good therapy dog - perhaps there are some that fit the bill, but 99% won't. However, as I stated earlier, there are often pet quality pups in working-bred litters, just as there are often pet pups in show bred litters.

ETA (again): When I say working breed, I mean one like the Border Collie that is still put to use on a daily basis by people who rely on the dogs for their livelihood.

 

[ToscasMom]

But the point is, if people LIKE the looks of a show line dog, be it collie or anything else, and they actually PREFER its looks and personality to other breeds, and they are willing to pay for, raise and love that dog, what business is it if they want that breed rather than "other breeds" that somebody else wants to *decide* they *should* have instead? Nobody really actually owns a particular breed and I think there is plenty of room for both types of dogs.

 

[RD]

Nobody has the right to dictate what breed someone should own. Not once did I say that. I just can't help but wonder why someone feels they need a working breed when all they really want is a pet.

Then again, I guess it all does come down to looks. That's understandable, I prefer rough-coated, athletic looking dogs myself. Heck, in a Border Collie I like rough coats, lots of white and tipped ears.

There's a place for the show dogs, I just wish that they wouldn't be lumped in the same breed as the working dogs when in reality, they are two very different "breeds".

 

[ToscasMom]

RD, I DO understand your angst, but what I see, and I am NOT involved in any way with professionals, is that there are two types of each breed, one the show conformation, the other the Working type and I just think there is room for both. Now if one were to completely eliminate the other, I would think that wrong. I guess my answer to you as to why I wanted a working breed is because from the showlines, they aren't really workers, so no worry that I need to get sheep. lol. Now if I could just get her to stop poking and nipping my butt all day, that would be helpful. Oh Baaaaah!

 

[oc_spirit]

SizzleDog, I never said your dogs should have bitten, how they handled the situation was fine. But what I'm saying is, if the dude became a threat and they felt the need to engage in order to restrain him then he turned on them and began beating them what proof do you have that they would maintain their guard??? Simply because they growled in the beginning???? That's where I'm saying that a lot of these guarding breeds especially from show lines have been so bred down that putting on a show is all they have in them. They might bite but only keep biting if the burgler doesn't fight back. So much for a guard dog...

Psyfalcon, I completely agree with you!!!

Sunnierhawk, yes the fact that my next breed to own will be a Sarplaninac and the fact that I have spent the last year or so studying livestock guarding breeds along with any dog in general clearly shows that I know nothing about guarding breeds >_> Trust me, I know about them.

WhatzMatter, THANKYOU!!! I'm glad some people still have some sort of brain in their heads these days LOL

RD, YES!! You know your stuff girl!

Gempress, as we can all agree on, owning a dog is a responsibilty as is choosing a breed. If one wishes to purchase (Example) a Bull Terrier but can not honestly say that they will be able to provide it with adequate work and keep its mind and body active as the breed demands then IMO it is extremely irresponisble for them to go ahead and purchase a Bull Terrier. Same goes with any breed. Isn't it us here on Chaz who say dont choose a breed based on looks but temperment? Ok so the temperment of a working breed is to WORK!!! If you can;'t provide that then dont get one plain and simple. Admire them form the sidelines of working fields and if you really wish to be involved with them volunteer at events or ask to help manage a kennel and work their dogs with them. DOnt put a working breed through the pain of having NOTHING to do. Honestly, it KILLS Ronan when he has nothing to do. A friend of mine also recently had to have her working Rottie on crate-rest and this dog is going NUTS!! I swear if she wasnt so well trained and so well mannered the house would have been destroyed weeks ago!

Its a nice thought that there could simply be a few lines of a particular working breed for "the rest of us working fanatics" but that can not be a reality. why? It's too isolated of a gene pool. eventually those dogs would be inbred and line bred all to crap and wierd things will begin to crop up like blue eyes in dogs that shouldnt have blue eyes and merles and harlequins and all kinds of health deformities. A serious risk when you want a working dog. Eventually the breeders will have to outcross, but then outcross to what?? They could either outcross to a crap-tastic show bred poor specimen...or outcross to a different breed of working lines. 99% of the time the breeder would rather outcross to another breed of working lines so as not to compromise working ability.

Remember people, FORM FOLLOW FUNCTION!!!! If you breed for a particular task your dogs eventually will maintain a certain standardized look. So what if it isn't quite the same as what the AKC has written?? AKC standards have been re-written so many times over anyways because of how the show breeders have morphed their breeds why should it matter if the working lines change a little to adapt to the work they are intended to perform?

Just take a look at the English Bulldog, the ones of today look NOTHING like they used to, nor can they even do the task that was originally set for them. Their job is now illegal, which I can understand but why is it that now the breed can barely perform any function including merely walking down the block???? Show breeders!!!! Heck, they cant even reproduce naturally!!!!

Again I just gotta restate, if you dont want a working dog, you simply want a couch potato then get a breed that was bred for companionship, not one that was bred for, and WANTS to work. Pugs are very happy to sit on a coush all day, lets let the Irish Setters re-learn how to hunt.

 

[Sunnierhawk0]

So because a owner wants a milder dog that can survive sitting at home and just being thier pet, they should be limited to have a pug or a breed bred to sit in your lap? Just making sure I get the point here

 

[whatszmatter]

So because a owner wants a milder dog that can survive sitting at home and just being thier pet, they should be limited to have a pug or a breed bred to sit in your lap? Just making sure I get the point here

pretty much, that's it. So let me get this straight, some people may want a GSD, will spend a butt load of cash on a GSD, want to tell their friends how smart their GSD is, want to tell everyone that their dog will protect them like a GSD, want the pride in knowing that they have a athletic, loyal, protective, and highly respected dog, but they don't want the "guts" of what makes them that type of dog?

Why does it affect me? Because I work another job besides dogs, I have a family, I have other hobbies besides dogs, and yet I have searched and found the type of dog I wanted. I Knew the responsibilities that came with it, and I took them on, cause its what I wanted. I'm rewarded with awsome dogs that do as much for me as I do for them. I lived in an apt with them at some point, i've lived in the middle of a city with them before. I lived for 3 months in a hotel by the airport in Chicago with one before, this excuse of today's lifestyles can't support working dogs is crap and an excuse. If you don't want one don't get one, what's so hard to accept about that.

I don't want certain dogs because they can't do what I want them to, or do the things I enjoy doing with my dogs. It doesn't mean I go looking for a breed to change, I found one that fits me.

i'm glad i'm around working dogs most of my training time, it keeps me sane. 95% of the GSD's I see in public are nothing like a real working GSD. You can see it in the way they carry themselves, the way they react to things on the street, and in their eyes. It makes me sad to know that these are the majority of the dogs other "regular" people see everyday, when there is so much more to this breed than they know.

My dogs have never been on sheep, they've seen them, but that's about it. There are thousands of other ways to use their drives to train and keep them working, the excuse of "they don't fit in modern society" is just an excuse.

I still can't get over why someone would want a shell of a dog and not the dog?? yeah, I want a highly athletic and active dog, that will protect me and be very loyal, but I don't want to train it, take it out, challange it mentally and physically and be its keeper for the next 10-15 years. Why would I ever feel comfortable with attitudes like that?