Real Working Dogs

[Elrohwen]

Also, most good males don't get bred, including dogs with impressive accomplishments. A good friend has a borzoi male with his show championship and racing championship. He also has a CDX, RAE, CGC, TDI, and TT, and is the first ever borzoi Champion Tracker. He's pretty, nicely structured, and fast, and he has a wonderful temperament ( and, yes, he has his CHIC number, too) The owner has never had so much as a preliminary inquiry about a breeding. (The owner didn't get him to breed him and doesn't care.) You should never count on anyone being interested in using your male, no matter how nice he is.

Yes, very true. I have a breeding lined up for Watson, but only because his breeder knew from the time he was a puppy that she would probably want to use him her program, pending title and health tests. Nobody else has approached me and I don't really expect anyone else to approach me unless she organizes it through her contacts. Without all of that, there's almost no chance anybody would ask to breed to him, no matter how nice his conformation and temperament.

It's not like you just walk outside with your male dog and say "Who wants to breed with him?!"

 

[JazzyTheSibe]

And that's exactly why I don't get behind breeding just to have a puppy that's related to a dog you love. That's not a worthwhile breeding goal, IMO.

Definitely.

This is a HUGE reason for why there's an over abundance of dogs in shelters-Well, at least that is the case here. So many people think that because their dog "turned out well", or is a good family pet, that it's a good idea to breed them, and it's not.

Dogdragoness- Instead of breeding, why not just purchase another MAS from your current breeder? What are you looking to get out of this breeding?

The offspring will not necessarily have the same Temperament as Lincoln. I just... can't comprehended why you'd breed for liking how he'd turn out.

Edit.

Yes, very true. I have a breeding lined up for Watson, but only because his breeder knew from the time he was a puppy that she would probably want to use him her program, pending title and health tests. Nobody else has approached me and I don't really expect anyone else to approach me unless she organizes it through her contacts. Without all of that, there's almost no chance anybody would ask to breed to him, no matter how nice his conformation and temperament.

It's not like you just walk outside with your male dog and say "Who wants to breed with him?!"

Yes, this too!

Hope you don't mind me asking this, but, do you have a certain time, when you'll breed him? From what I've been hearing, it's sounds like there will be some awesome puppies produced. Plus, it's always fun watching a litter grow up.

(Feel free to ignore this!)

 

[k9krazee]

Totally off topic but...

Yes, very true. I have a breeding lined up for Watson, but only because his breeder knew from the time he was a puppy that she would probably want to use him her program, pending title and health tests. Nobody else has approached me and I don't really expect anyone else to approach me unless she organizes it through her contacts. Without all of that, there's almost no chance anybody would ask to breed to him, no matter how nice his conformation and temperament.

It's not like you just walk outside with your male dog and say "Who wants to breed with him?!"

haha

We were walking home from dinner one day with Crossbone and as we were crossing the street a car flew up out of nowhere and slammed on their brakes preventing us from crossing the street. We were so confused and the lady rolls down her window and says, "We tried to follow you all the way from town! Is that dog a boy? We want to breed him to our girl dog!!" Stunned we said yes, he's a boy....but he's neutered. They were really sad, rolled up their window and drove off. And that's not the only breeding request we've had for him! We joked that we'll get him Neuticals and stud him out

 

[Elrohwen]

Totally off topic but...



haha

We were walking home from dinner one day with Crossbone and as we were crossing the street a car flew up out of nowhere and slammed on their brakes preventing us from crossing the street. We were so confused and the lady rolls down her window and says, "We tried to follow you all the way from town! Is that dog a boy? We want to breed him to our girl dog!!" Stunned we said yes, he's a boy....but he's neutered. They were really sad, rolled up their window and drove off. And that's not the only breeding request we've had for him! We joked that we'll get him Neuticals and stud him out

:rofl1: Apparently it really *is* that easy. Who knew?!

And I can't believe the people were persistent and stalker-ish enough to follow you in their car.

 

[JazzyTheSibe]

Totally off topic but...



haha

We were walking home from dinner one day with Crossbone and as we were crossing the street a car flew up out of nowhere and slammed on their brakes preventing us from crossing the street. We were so confused and the lady rolls down her window and says, "We tried to follow you all the way from town! Is that dog a boy? We want to breed him to our girl dog!!" Stunned we said yes, he's a boy....but he's neutered. They were really sad, rolled up their window and drove off. And that's not the only breeding request we've had for him! We joked that we'll get him Neuticals and stud him out

Thats not creepy at all....:rofl1:

 

[Romy]

:rofl1: Apparently it really *is* that easy. Who knew?!

And I can't believe the people were persistent and stalker-ish enough to follow you in their car.

I've had a lot of offers to breed Strider, but only to male GSDs and yellow labs for some reason. :rofl1:

 

[Dogdragoness]

The thing about 1st and 2nd picks too is people have different goals and tastes, so what is one person's pick isn't necessarily going to be the same as another's. A lot of times it works out so that everyone involved gets their first pick.

Let's say I have a hypothetical nice male. I have my own breeding program and goals, my own planned litters and there is a cap on the number of dogs I can keep.

Someone with a hypothetical nice bitch approaches me and wants to use him. She's nice, not part of my planned breedings but eh, if they want to use him she's nice.

In a case like that, why would I take the absolute best pick puppy of the litter? The dam's owner would need that dog to continue with THEIR plans. I don't need it. If I did the breeding for a puppy back chances are I might even just pick a nice companion puppy as payment and place it in a companion home on my waiting list.

Yes, that's what I meant ... I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, I try to be clear but sometimes it doesn't come across that way. "Pick of the litter" for me in my case meant a really good companion puppy ... or 2nd pick. But yes I would give owner of the bitch first and best pick since they are going to be doing all the work.

Again ... this is a DREAM something I am knocking around, so not in stone . Not sure why everyone is having issues with a hypothetical situation that might not even happen.

 

[BostonBanker]

Intelligent, driven, competitive 9 - 5 lawyers and business owners (who research paper towels) are buying puppies from kennels with many breedings every year by parents with baby titles, incomplete health testing, 30+ adult dogs in residence, oh and you can't say I want a puppy from A x B. Maybe A will be bred to C or D or maybe X will be bred to B -you can't specify . Obviously, there are enough buyers who feel this is responsible and ethical.

That dog is a weekend warrior. The vast majority of buyers are local competitors with 9 - 5 jobs, not World Team members. My CH sire of merit Ag/Rally/OB competitor is a pet 90% of the time. When I'm in the market, I won't know what is responsible breeding for my purposes.

I'm totally going to be that person. As are a ton of people I know. Most of the agility competitors I know (even some of the 'professionals' who train other people) are 9 to 5'ers. I'm more of a 7 to 3er, but I work 40+ hours a week, am not a professional, and have zero desire to go to Worlds.

But it is entirely possible that my next dog will be a sport-bred border collie. I'm not sure what's wrong with that. The vast majority of sport bred BCs I know are perfectly lovely, and well-loved, pets when they aren't working. I hike nearly every week with two young 'sporter' collies. I'd be thrilled to have a dog like them. I also train with them nearly every week. And I'd be thrilled to have a dog like them in that respect as well.

I'd have a hard time with a first time, or small, breeder using parents who are relatively young and have only low-level titles. But there's also a point for me where, if a breeder is consistently putting out dogs who can go to professionals and hit the World Team, and can also place the right dogs with amateurs who love those dogs and are able to be successful at their own level with them...well, I'm not going to knock them. It may or may not be a breeder I would personally go to, because that would be dependent on other factors. But perhaps. The dogs are going into the right homes, they are living nice lives, and the owners are thrilled. There's bigger fish I'd fry first.

Not that I'm trying to disagree with you really, because of course everyone has a different idea as to what is okay and that's fine. Just my take on it, as someone you essentially described in your post (although I couldn't care less where my paper towels come from, as long as they aren't those annoying ones that are half-sized).

 

[Romy]

Yes, that's what I meant ... I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, I try to be clear but sometimes it doesn't come across that way. "Pick of the litter" for me in my case meant a really good companion puppy ... or 2nd pick. But yes I would give owner of the bitch first and best pick since they are going to be doing all the work.

Again ... this is a DREAM something I am knocking around, so not in stone . Not sure why everyone is having issues with a hypothetical situation that might not even happen.

I think people's issue is with a breeding potentially being done for sentimental reasons vs. contributing something worthwhile towards the breed.

There are a lot of good dogs out there, but not every good dog is good enough to warrant making more like him. Combine that with the difficulty in finding a comparable bitch, and the alternative is a BYB bitch and puppies who likely won't even be as good as the dad.

When you breed, at minimum your goal should be for the puppies to be better than their parents. You never want to backslide. Sometimes it works out that way, but you shouldn't do a breeding knowing that it will be the probable outcome.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't think they're saying there's anything wrong with sporter collies just some of the breeding practices out there are a bit suspect (or more than a bit). To me some of these practices are absolutely not justified by producing competitive sport dogs.

Heck I'm looking at sporter collies and sport mixes for my next dog too. I'd kill for a borderstaffy.

And I work a corporate desk job.

 

[Dogdragoness]

I think people's issue is with a breeding potentially being done for sentimental reasons vs. contributing something worthwhile towards the breed.

There are a lot of good dogs out there, but not every good dog is good enough to warrant making more like him. Combine that with the difficulty in finding a comparable bitch, and the alternative is a BYB bitch and puppies who likely won't even be as good as the dad.

When you breed, at minimum your goal should be for the puppies to be better than their parents. You never want to backslide. Sometimes it works out that way, but you shouldn't do a breeding knowing that it will be the probable outcome.

My goal isn't merely sentimental, though it may sound that way ... if he doesn't have anything better to offer the breed than just sentimental value to me personally ... than I will not do it. But I plan to have him genetically and health tested, and evaluated by a fellow, experienced breeder before I make any decision. I am not just going to find another MAS and breed him because ease is pretty or because they are both the same breed. There are things I would like to correct and I would find the right bitch thst would compliment and enhance where he lacks, as he would do the same for her.

 

[BostonBanker]

I don't think they're saying there's anything wrong with sporter collies just some of the breeding practices out there are a bit suspect (or more than a bit). To me some of these practices are absolutely not justified by producing competitive sport dogs.

I don't have an issue with the questioning of breeding practices; like I said, I figure everyone should be doing that anyway and deciding what they are okay with. I wasn't sure if I was reading incorrectly that there was also a belief that sport bred dogs shouldn't be going to those 9-5 workers who are weekend warriors with dog sports. Which is also anyone opinion, I guess. I just know a lot of those "crazy sport bred dogs" who are actually really super, albeit active pets once they are away from the ring.

 

[Elrohwen]

My goal isn't merely sentimental, though it may sound that way ... if he doesn't have anything better to offer the breed than just sentimental value to me personally ... than I will not do it. But I plan to have him genetically and health tested, and evaluated by a fellow, experienced breeder before I make any decision. I am not just going to find another MAS and breed him because ease is pretty or because they are both the same breed. There are things I would like to correct and I would find the right bitch thst would compliment and enhance where he lacks, as he would do the same for her.

But our point is that it's not up to you. If a breeder who owns a bitch doesn't approach you for breeding, or if you don't get very involved in the breed, the chances of you finding a bitch who compliments him and making this happen is slim to none.

It's ladies' choice. As the owner of a dog you don't really get to decide if he's worth breeding to

Also, what does his own breeder think about him? Did she place him as a pet puppy?

 

[Dekka]

It's not like you just walk outside with your male dog and say "Who wants to breed with him?!"

This has happened to me! At least that is how people acted With Kaiden, more than once. Never to anyone I wanted him bred to of course. But people just walked up to me and asked if I stood him out.

I was once asked if someone could breed their boy to Quest wanting the entire litter. I was less against that pairing but as I didn't keep Quest its moot.

 

[Dogdragoness]

But our point is that it's not up to you. If a breeder who owns a bitch doesn't approach you for breeding, or if you don't get very involved in the breed, the chances of you finding a bitch who compliments him and making this happen is slim to none.

It's ladies' choice. As the owner of a dog you don't really get to decide if he's worth breeding to

Also, what does his own breeder think about him? Did she place him as a pet puppy?

No, he was a show quality pup that just never found a place, so she let me have him for pet cost, with the option of buying the breeding rights.

He isn't the only pup that couldn't find a place, another MAS breeder friend of mine had a truly stunning pup that also grew roots lol.

 

[Elrohwen]

No, he was a show quality pup that just never found a place, so she let me have him for pet cost, with the option of buying the breeding rights.

He isn't the only pup that couldn't find a place, another MAS breeder friend of mine had a truly stunning pup that also grew roots lol.

What do you mean by "buying the breeding rights"? Is he currently co-owned?

 

[Dogdragoness]

What do you mean by "buying the breeding rights"? Is he currently co-owned?

I didnt know if I wanted to breed or show him when I bought him, so she sold me to him for pet price, I still dont know if I am going to go that route or not. Like I said ... long way off. I own him but she still owns the breeding rights to him, if I were to breed him it would have to be a female she chooses or one of hers, which wouldnt be a terrible thing either.

 

[DJEtzel]

What do you mean by "buying the breeding rights"? Is he currently co-owned?

A lot of breeders sell full registration for a different price than limited. I think this is what she's trying to say. Some have requirements for it, some don't.

 

[Elrohwen]

A lot of breeders sell full registration for a different price than limited. I think this is what she's trying to say. Some have requirements for it, some don't.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Wasn't sure at first.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Yes that's what I was trying to say ... without going into too much detail about what I consider to be private financial and business matters between the breeder and I.