Real Working Dogs

[Elrohwen]

Thank youuuuu.. I get so frustrated seeing constant comments like 'look how high my dog jumps', 'look how fast my dog can run', 'look at how my dog walks over a log'... those things do not an agility dog make.

Also my breeder breeds field trial dogs. Guess that's why we haven't had much agility success.

I have the same problem with people who claim their dogs can hunt, though the dog has never seen a bird other than through the living room window. "Oh, he's super interested in birds! He has great instinct and would make a great hunter." If you haven't hunted with him, don't say that you know he would make a great hunting dog. There's more to it than having prey drive and liking to sniff outside.

 

[sassafras]

I have the same problem with people who claim their dogs can hunt, though the dog has never seen a bird other than through the living room window. "Oh, he's super interested in birds! He has great instinct and would make a great hunter." If you haven't hunted with him, don't say that you know he would make a great hunting dog. There's more to it than having prey drive and liking to sniff outside.

Well, plus... there's more to being a great hunter than being super interested in birds. In any activity, there are a lot of steps between A and Z. Some of them dog related, some of them handler related. And the process between instinct and work could get hung up at multiple points along the way.

 

[Elrohwen]

Well, plus... there's more to being a great hunter than being super interested in birds. In any activity, there are a lot of steps between A and Z. Some of them dog related, some of them handler related. And the process between instinct and work could get hung up at multiple points along the way.

Yes! Exactly. I hear a lot in my breed that the dogs can go into the show ring and still hunt in the field. Ok, sure, some can and there's certainly proof of it, but some of the people who say it have never hunted, and don't have a dog who hunted anywhere in their lines. I get that they are proud of their breed, but it's misleading to say that your dog would be a great hunter when you really have no idea. Just like it's misleading to say your dog would be a great agility dog because he's fast/jumps high if only you had bothered to train it.

ETA: Though I guess on one level it's comforting that most breeders are at least trying to breed show dogs who are interested in birds, and tend to look down on the dogs with zero prey drive. I'd certainly rather they try to retain original instincts the best they can vs not caring at all. It's the claims with no proof that get to me, no matter what the sport/activity.

 

[Laurelin]

Yes! Exactly. I hear a lot in my breed that the dogs can go into the show ring and still hunt in the field. Ok, sure, some can and there's certainly proof of it, but some of the people who say it have never hunted, and don't have a dog who hunted anywhere in their lines. I get that they are proud of their breed, but it's misleading to say that your dog would be a great hunter when you really have no idea. Just like it's misleading to say your dog would be a great agility dog because he's fast/jumps high if only you had bothered to train it.

ETA: Though I guess on one level it's comforting that most breeders are at least trying to breed show dogs who are interested in birds, and tend to look down on the dogs with zero prey drive. I'd certainly rather they try to retain original instincts the best they can vs not caring at all. It's the claims with no proof that get to me, no matter what the sport/activity.

I hear that with herding dogs. My lines can herd- they nip at my heels/other dogs heels and they eye their tennis balls.

Errrr.....

As far as agility goes, a lot of people start by thinking 'my dog can run and jump so he'll be awesome at it'. Agility is a lot of work though. A lot more complex than it looks. A lot of people quit when they realize it's so much baby steps.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Typos fixed. This is why I should not type late at night.

LOL I am glad I am not the only one ... all my late night typing is on my phone and late night + big thumbs + phone keyboard (even though it is bigger than my iPhone) = lots of typoes and even some weird auto corrects ... sometimes I dont know where it comes up with some of the stuff it "corrects" the word into LOL.

 

[Dogdragoness]

I have the same problem with people who claim their dogs can hunt, though the dog has never seen a bird other than through the living room window. "Oh, he's super interested in birds! He has great instinct and would make a great hunter." If you haven't hunted with him, don't say that you know he would make a great hunting dog. There's more to it than having prey drive and liking to sniff outside.

I have heard people with JRTs say that. I am like "Oh really?" Has your dog ever faced REAL game in a REAL hunting situation? And I am not just talking about earth dog trials where the "quarry" is in a cage at the end of a man made tunnel ... I am talking about a REAL hole with REAL prey that has teeth and will fight back ... Yeah ... as someone who has done both, I can say its totally different.

In fact Bear didnt do as well at earth dog once I hunted him, because earth dog is timed and it requires the dog to run into the hole blindly ... something he quickly learned NOT to do when hunting for real.

 

[JazzyTheSibe]

If i wanted to do agility, I would buy a dog from a breeder who competes in agility. I would not go to a show breeder who has never seen an agility course, and I would not go to a working cow dog breeder who has never HEARD of agility

you can do whatever the **** you want. this is MY opinion.

Well...Yes, you could, but get a dog from said lines,but it doesn't mean, & it will not guarantee, that you will get a "better dog". I've seen a good amount of working-bred BC's not only compete, but excel at agility. The same goes with rescue dogs, show bred dogs, & other dogs not specifically bred for agility. I know a BC that's from a show-bred dog from a rescue, & while she isn't at the top level, she's doing great, & it was awesome to watch her.

And, to be honest, I don't think I'd ever considering purchasing a dog, where that breeder only breeds for agility

 

[yv0nne]

I have heard people with JRTs say that. I am like "Oh really?" Has your dog ever faced REAL game in a REAL hunting situation? And I am not just talking about earth dog trials where the "quarry" is in a cage at the end of a man made tunnel ... I am talking about a REAL hole with REAL prey that has teeth and will fight back ... Yeah ... as someone who has done both, I can say its totally different.

In fact Bear didnt do as well at earth dog once I hunted him, because earth dog is timed and it requires the dog to run into the hole blindly ... something he quickly learned NOT to do when hunting for real.

You literally JUST DID THIS with agility. The post you quoted was replying to my post ..about you.

If you understand the differences between real hunting& sniffing things, you know it is foolish to say you have one of the best agility dogs ever even though you've never trained or trialed. Come onnnnn.

 

[Red.Apricot]

I would and did purchase a puppy whose parents were primarily show dogs, and for me it was a great choice. I wanted a companion to do obedience with, and that's what I got.

It would be foolish to argue that she's better at anything (herding, agility, protection sport, lmao) than other dogs of her breed just because of the glimmers she's shown (eyeing stock, jumping, barking at people), and it would be silly of me to think she'd be better at, say, herding than a dog bred for herding, whose parents worked stock daily; I have no idea if she would or wouldn't be (basically definitely not) but that's not why I bought her.

Whether that's "best for the breed" I really can't say (probably not) but I wasn't looking to buy a whole breed; I wanted one dog, to do AKC obedience with, and to hike with, and to play with, and live with--and I got exactly that.

 

[k9krazee]

I would and did buy a dog from a show breeder who does not participate personally in other sports except letting her terriers hunt rats recreationally on the farm. In this particular case it was not a concern for me & my wants and needs in a puppy (who I hope to be a competitive agility dog) because I know the temperaments and dogs she's producing would be suited for agility.

I do see the validity in wanting more---If I wanted to do agility with a chihuahua (or another "off breed") I would not choose a show breeder who breeds lap dogs or good low energy companions. I would want the breeder to prove somehow that the dogs have the drive and temperament suited for agility.

While I do not consider agility "real work"----I might seek out a breeder breeding for agility (I just couldn't find one in Rat Terriers or mixes therof!)

 

[ThreePs]

And, to be honest, I don't think I'd ever considering purchasing a dog, where that breeder only breeds for agility

I'd say most of the people in my agility circle buy a dog from a breeder that only does agility. Same for flyball. Sometimes I worry it creeps into BYB or, with the big name kennels, milling. Is it ok to breed your bitch once or twice because she's been a great competitor and you want one just like her? Is it ok to breed ten bitches a year because there is a demand for that kennel name?

There seems to be a similar thing in the OB ring with Goldens.

 

[JazzyTheSibe]

I'd say most of the people in my agility circle buy a dog from a breeder that only does agility. Same for flyball. Sometimes I worry it creeps into BYB or, with the big name kennels, milling. Is it ok to breed your bitch once or twice because she's been a great competitor and you want one just like her? Is it ok to breed ten bitches a year because there is a demand for that kennel name?

There seems to be a similar thing in the OB ring with Goldens.

See, that's the problem, at least from what I've been told. With so

Now, if they've been bred for other "traits" besides Agility? I'm fine with that. It just when it's soley bred for. But, I'm also not one of those people who believe breeding for sport is "evil". Yes, I wouldn't choose to a sport-bred dog, & I don't agree with many of the things they do, but do I see them as horrible money-grubbing people? No.

For example there's a BC Breeder who I adore, I love her ethics,& she's just outstanding breeder. She's mainly breeds for sheep work, but she also trials her BC's.

To be completely honest, I just don't know sometimes. There are times were I've really considered getting a dog soley from Agility lines. It's not something I really considering anymore, but it's still a thought from time-to-time.

(Oh,& I'm sorry about previous typos.)

 

[Laurelin]

I'd say most of the people in my agility circle buy a dog from a breeder that only does agility. Same for flyball. Sometimes I worry it creeps into BYB or, with the big name kennels, milling. Is it ok to breed your bitch once or twice because she's been a great competitor and you want one just like her? Is it ok to breed ten bitches a year because there is a demand for that kennel name?

There seems to be a similar thing in the OB ring with Goldens.

Sports breeding is a very tricky thing for me. There is certainly demand and ideally it makes a lot of sense to me. I would like a dog from a line I know to be sports oriented- I want confidence, drive, good build, athleticism, etc.

But the reality makes me conflicted. There's a lot that sports folks are ok with in a sports setting that I don't think they'd be in a pet dog breeder. A dozen litters a year and 30+ resident dogs is terrible if it's a pet labradoodle breeder but ok if it's a sport breeder? Or a bitch being bred up to 7 times is ok because they breed fast dogs?

I don't think we should overlook that kind of stuff to be good at a game. I do think there are good sport and performance breeders out there though.

 

[Dogdragoness]

I'd say most of the people in my agility circle buy a dog from a breeder that only does agility. Same for flyball. Sometimes I worry it creeps into BYB or, with the big name kennels, milling. Is it ok to breed your bitch once or twice because she's been a great competitor and you want one just like her? Is it ok to breed ten bitches a year because there is a demand for that kennel name?

There seems to be a similar thing in the OB ring with Goldens.

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

 

[DJEtzel]

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

Yes.

Tooshort.

 

[Julee]

Yes.

bless

 

[amberdyan]

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

I just can't get behind a breeding when your only goal is "have a puppy that's like my dog and related to my dog." It just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Annabell]

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

If you really like how Lincoln turns out, I would say go back to his breeder and get another puppy from them (assuming it's a reputable breeder) that is out of the same lines.

I don't like the idea of a goal for a breeding being that you want a dog related to your current one. It just seems kind of pointless to me. And also if you leave the breeding up to Lincoln's breeder, they will have an easier time placing the puppies since (I assume) they are already established.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Romy]

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

The problem with owning a dog (vs. a bitch) and wanting to breed him, is unless you're really involved in the breed and your dog is proven to be a superior choice as stud to all the other studs available to reputable breeders, your only choice is to breed him to a BYB bitch.

A BYB bitch isn't likely to have the health and temperament behind her that you'd find desirable, and the puppies would be just as likely to inherit that as they would good traits from your dog.

On the other hand, if he has qualities that you really like and his genes would be an asset to the breed, passes his health tests, etc. then as a male you do have the option of having him collected and freezing it.

That way if you do get more involved in the breed, and at some point have a super nice bitch that he is a good complement to and he's already gone, you do have the option of using him still.

Frozen semen is also nice in a way because in breeds that tend toward short lifespans or age related health problems you can collect a male and wait to see whether he has those issues before using him to sire a bunch of puppies.

 

[crazedACD]

Is it bad that I am toying with the idea of breeding Lincoln for pick of the litter for this reason, if he turns out the way I want? Just one litter for one of his prodigy, but this won't happen until he is older and Josefina has passed away or is very old by then

Sign me up!

You know they have to breast feed, right?