puppy won't stop biting/nipping
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"Serious breeds" don't have any different social understanding than "non-serious" ones. Dogs are dogs, and their behavior is dictated by very clear social rules. Every dog is different, true, but they all have very basic similarities. The "I-have-to-beat-my-dog-'cause-he's-big" training method is no more effective or intelligent than the whip on the booger-wiper. People who purposefully cultivate an adverserial relationship with their dog--covincing themselves that it's a Kill-Or-Be-Killed battle of wills--just aren't willing to admit their ignorance of their dogs' behavior and motivations. Notions like this are antiquated and outdated, and will do nothing but damage your relationship with your dog. If you educate yourself on the subject of canine social behavior, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
http://www.dogsday.8k.com/custom.html
Read the second article down for a beginning look at the way canine social structure actually functions.
http://www.dogsday.8k.com/custom.html
Read the second article down for a beginning look at the way canine social structure actually functions.
1. Since when is shaking a scruff gently and letting the pup bite it self is considred "beat my dog". No where in the thread have i stated that I would beat my dog. I never have and never will lay a finger on him.
2. You want to teach me on how my dog acts? How many Caucasians have you owned again? He gets praised for good behavior and corrected for bad and thats how it works. He understands quickly the undesired behavior and does not repeat it. Not because of fear but because I told him that the behavior is undesirable and he respect my decisions.
3. You're really sure this will damage the relation between me and my dog? I dont know, but i dont notice the fear in his eye's when i see his face is running toward me wagging his tail and jumping from excitement. I dont see his fear when he performs commands with with eager quickness. And i dont see fear when he stays out of the way of danger because i thought him that. I dont see any fear when he is protecting me, my family and my property.
4. How do you expect a dog to know whats right and whats wrong by ignoring the behavior?
5. I assume you are also against spanking little children and against punishment in schools? You like to ignore the undesirable behavior, you dont like ever correcting a puppy, good for you.
2. You want to teach me on how my dog acts? How many Caucasians have you owned again? He gets praised for good behavior and corrected for bad and thats how it works. He understands quickly the undesired behavior and does not repeat it. Not because of fear but because I told him that the behavior is undesirable and he respect my decisions.
3. You're really sure this will damage the relation between me and my dog? I dont know, but i dont notice the fear in his eye's when i see his face is running toward me wagging his tail and jumping from excitement. I dont see his fear when he performs commands with with eager quickness. And i dont see fear when he stays out of the way of danger because i thought him that. I dont see any fear when he is protecting me, my family and my property.
4. How do you expect a dog to know whats right and whats wrong by ignoring the behavior?
5. I assume you are also against spanking little children and against punishment in schools? You like to ignore the undesirable behavior, you dont like ever correcting a puppy, good for you.
I expect the dog to know because it's been proven in behavioral science studies time and time again that by ignoring...or not giving a reinforcer to a certain behavior, that behavior will self extinguish. Furthermore, given an alternative to that behavior....showing the dog what you DO want and giving a positive reinforcer for that behavior will dramatically increase the liklihood of the dog repeating that behavior.
He understands based on learning theory not because he respects your decisions. How did you tell him that the behavior was undesirable? With corrections. His behavior caused negative consequences and he learned to avoid these consequences by not repeating that behavior. When a negative consequence is applied to a specific behavior it decreases the chances of that behavior reoccuring. It has little to do with "respect" and alot to do with avoidence.
I agree with Doberluv...its called extinction. Dogs don't learn right from wrong its more like safe vs. unsafe to them.
You can also teach an incompatible behavior to replace the undesirable behavior. For instance, Natalie used to jump all over the back door when it was time to go outside. I taught her to sit (incompatible with jumping) at the door instead. I did this by giving her the cue "sit" before I would open the door on the first day only. The days following I did'nt give any cues but simply stood at the door and waited for her to sit. It took her a few minutes to figure out what to do but she has remembered ever since. Her jumping was no longer reinforced because the door was not opening and her sitting at the door was reinforced because the door would open once she was sitting down. I used this same method to teach her to sit to greet me rather than jump all over me when I return home. It worked, it stuck with her and she learned not to jump up on the door or on me and I did'nt have to use any corrections at all. I simply showed her what I wanted her to do and reinforced her for doing it while ingnoring any undesirable behavior to ensure that it was no longer reinforced.
I agree with Doberluv...its called extinction. Dogs don't learn right from wrong its more like safe vs. unsafe to them.
You can also teach an incompatible behavior to replace the undesirable behavior. For instance, Natalie used to jump all over the back door when it was time to go outside. I taught her to sit (incompatible with jumping) at the door instead. I did this by giving her the cue "sit" before I would open the door on the first day only. The days following I did'nt give any cues but simply stood at the door and waited for her to sit. It took her a few minutes to figure out what to do but she has remembered ever since. Her jumping was no longer reinforced because the door was not opening and her sitting at the door was reinforced because the door would open once she was sitting down. I used this same method to teach her to sit to greet me rather than jump all over me when I return home. It worked, it stuck with her and she learned not to jump up on the door or on me and I did'nt have to use any corrections at all. I simply showed her what I wanted her to do and reinforced her for doing it while ingnoring any undesirable behavior to ensure that it was no longer reinforced.
Exactly Opokki! Isn't it fun too? I love doing that.... Starting out with a command and then eliminating the command so that a particular behavior becomes automatic. We do that for automatic sits and other things.
I did the same thing for "wait" at the door in order to go out. I'd open the door and the dog would charge to go out. I'd quickly beat him to it and close the door before he got to it. I'd open the door and again, he'd go forward and I'd close the door. It only took a few repititions for him to figure out he better sit and wait until I gave his familiar release word. I wouldn't open it until he sat. After he got it down pretty well, I added the command "sit,wait" because I didn't want to ask him to sit and wait if he was going to break the sit. So, I just skipped the command at first and let him figure it out on his own, which he did.
Did the same thing with his dog food bowl...didn't hold him back or strenly tell him anything. I'd only tell him sit/wait and pick up the bowl if he didn't wait. After a few times of that, he figured it out ALL BY HIMSELF that if he wants to eat, he needs to wait for the release word, "OK."
Same thing with putting his collar on. He loves to get his collar on because it means walkies. LOL. (But I want him to sit and hold still while I put it on.) Now I don't have to ask for a sit. I can say nothing...just stand there with the collar or for fun, sometimes I say, "what do we do?" LOL. He knows what he needs to do to get the collar on and go out for a walk. He figured it out by himself. I didn't force his but to sit, didn't scold or say, "no" when he got back up, before I was ready.
It's not all about being "mean" by using corrections. It's about the dog learning better, learning HOW to learn better and how to problem solve. It just makes a happier, smarter, better trained dog IMO.
I did the same thing for "wait" at the door in order to go out. I'd open the door and the dog would charge to go out. I'd quickly beat him to it and close the door before he got to it. I'd open the door and again, he'd go forward and I'd close the door. It only took a few repititions for him to figure out he better sit and wait until I gave his familiar release word. I wouldn't open it until he sat. After he got it down pretty well, I added the command "sit,wait" because I didn't want to ask him to sit and wait if he was going to break the sit. So, I just skipped the command at first and let him figure it out on his own, which he did.
Did the same thing with his dog food bowl...didn't hold him back or strenly tell him anything. I'd only tell him sit/wait and pick up the bowl if he didn't wait. After a few times of that, he figured it out ALL BY HIMSELF that if he wants to eat, he needs to wait for the release word, "OK."
Same thing with putting his collar on. He loves to get his collar on because it means walkies. LOL. (But I want him to sit and hold still while I put it on.) Now I don't have to ask for a sit. I can say nothing...just stand there with the collar or for fun, sometimes I say, "what do we do?" LOL. He knows what he needs to do to get the collar on and go out for a walk. He figured it out by himself. I didn't force his but to sit, didn't scold or say, "no" when he got back up, before I was ready.
It's not all about being "mean" by using corrections. It's about the dog learning better, learning HOW to learn better and how to problem solve. It just makes a happier, smarter, better trained dog IMO.
Today I began beefing up his paying attention to me when we're outside and there are things in the enviornment that distract him. I need to really work on this problem. He'd be looking at something or listening to something in the woods and I'd want him to look at me instead. I didn't say, "NO!!!" I didn't yank his leash (actually, he didn't have a leash or collar on) I just said, "Lyric...watch." I waved a treat past his nose and held it up to my face. He followed that with his head and eyes and I immediately praised and gave the treat. We walked around, changed locations in the yard and did it again and again. He would stare off into space, ding bat that he is sometimes and I'd repeat that. I'm going to practice and practice with minimal distractions until it gets to be more of a habit with him and then I'll try it with light distractions. There is no scolding or physical force. It's just that he is going to prefer these fantastic treats I've got and the praise, which he gobbles up over other things. It's GOT TO BECOME ALMOST A HABIT. My plan is to make me his default attention thing instead of the outside world. (a tall order, I suppose) Then I hope to combat his acting like a fool when he sees another dog, which has come up recently. Ugggg. I only wish I had worked on this more, much, much earlier.
Creature Teacher, if you have a better way to do this, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to waste time doing it wrong. Thanks in advance.
Oh....sometimes the little training treats I've been using, which he does love, still aren't every time enough to get him to look if he's looking intently at something else off in the distance, even when I stick it right in front of his nose. It's not like he's highly aroused yet, but looking. So, if I use better treats, as in...too special, like fresh meat or cheese maybe... he will tend to pay soooooo much attention that he never looks at anything else and so I can't test him out or practice. Ya know what I mean? So, what should I do?
Oh, I know...less distractions. But these are pretty mild where we're doing it. If I take him inside, like in the living room where there are almost no distractions to speak of, then he'll just stare at me waiting for a treat and again, I won't get to test him out. Or...should I just do it inside periodically....wait for him to get interested in something else and then try it?
Creature Teacher, if you have a better way to do this, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to waste time doing it wrong. Thanks in advance.
Oh....sometimes the little training treats I've been using, which he does love, still aren't every time enough to get him to look if he's looking intently at something else off in the distance, even when I stick it right in front of his nose. It's not like he's highly aroused yet, but looking. So, if I use better treats, as in...too special, like fresh meat or cheese maybe... he will tend to pay soooooo much attention that he never looks at anything else and so I can't test him out or practice. Ya know what I mean? So, what should I do?
Oh, I know...less distractions. But these are pretty mild where we're doing it. If I take him inside, like in the living room where there are almost no distractions to speak of, then he'll just stare at me waiting for a treat and again, I won't get to test him out. Or...should I just do it inside periodically....wait for him to get interested in something else and then try it?
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I've been working on this with mine too. Its coming along nicely too but I have'nt tried it with many distractions yet. I've pracitced alot in the house and recently started in the backyard where there are some but very few distractions.
Sebastian has this bad habit of barking and running to the door when people are trying to leave. A couple weeks ago my neighbor came upstairs and was about to leave out the back door. Sebastian was in the kitchen with me and I saw him stiffen as he does right before he runs to the door to back at the person leaving. So before he even got started just as my neighbor put her hand on the door knob I quickly said "Sebastian, Look!" and he turned around so quickly. It was amazing! And my neighbor left right and not a peep of Sebastian...he was too busy "looking" at me.
Sebastian has this bad habit of barking and running to the door when people are trying to leave. A couple weeks ago my neighbor came upstairs and was about to leave out the back door. Sebastian was in the kitchen with me and I saw him stiffen as he does right before he runs to the door to back at the person leaving. So before he even got started just as my neighbor put her hand on the door knob I quickly said "Sebastian, Look!" and he turned around so quickly. It was amazing! And my neighbor left right and not a peep of Sebastian...he was too busy "looking" at me.
Never should physical punishment be used when one is angry. My children have been swatted on the rear end for such transgressions as going into the street when they knew better or doing something else that threatens their safety but it is never done because I am angry. When I am angry then it is time for me to take a time out and assess the situation. Not only that but dogs are learning a whole new language, it would be equivelent to a foreginer doing something we find unacceptable and hitting them for it, not exactly fair. Once your dog knows 100% what is expected of them and what is and isn't acceptable you shouldn't have any issues where physical punishment is needed. Training takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, just like raising a child does, you have to teach them the right way and hitting is not usually an acceptable norm in today's society because it is proven to be unnecessary and counter-productive. I know that I would rather please someone and be gently guided when doing something wrong than be hit because I didn't understand the rules.
The thing about using violence to 'teach' your dog is that you've now taught your dog that violence gets results when interacting with humans. NOT a lesson you want your dog to take to heart! Especially with one of the large, self-determined breeds. Your large dog's also going to figure out at some point that he - or she - is stronger than you are. If the dog has been raised with the philosophy that "might makes right" you can have a real problem on your hands. Maybe not in his interaction with you, necessarily, but it will weaken, if not remove, some of the inhibitions regarding arbitrarily bullying people.
It's also humiliating. My parents believed in corporal punishment too. I turned out okay, but no thanks to being hit and humiliated! The same thing goes for dogs.
It's also humiliating. My parents believed in corporal punishment too. I turned out okay, but no thanks to being hit and humiliated! The same thing goes for dogs.
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Adrienne took the words right out of my mouth! I too was swatted when I was little for doing things I knew I shouldn't do. But dogs can't tell you, "Yes, I knew that was wrong. Sorry." And truth be told, they usually don't know it was wrong, because we haven't clearly communicated our expectations. The idea behind punishment-based training is you leave the animal (or person) no other option than to do what you want. You don't usually show them what's right in any meaningful way, you just correct them for what's wrong until they guess correctly. You can try this yourself: Get a friend or family member to pick a simple task that they want to "train" you to do, like getting a soda from the fridge and opening it or some other such thing. Don't let them tell you what the task is. Then, every time you do something that doesn't progress you in the task they've chosen, they get to yell "NO!" at you. See how much you enjoy your training. You get frustrated and irritated because this "trainer" isn't willing to tell you what to do, only what not to do. Then think how much more difficult this is for dogs, who have to live in what amounts to an alien society. Training a dog this way can make them feel isolated and unhappy. Fortunately for us, dogs are extremely forgiving, in-the-moment animals, and they will always love us. But I for one would feel terrible if I treated my dog that way, especially because he'll love me no matter what. I think I owe it to him to make it easier for him to live a happy and comfortable life while giving him an education at the same time.
Who ever gave you an idea that correction is beating the dog up? There are different variations of training. Beating the dog is just stupid, and you seem to focus on that alot.
I never saw a dog that was hurt by a stern no and little shake by its scruff.
Im not sure about your backgrounds with dogs but in my experience some of the things you people post make me doubt your credentials as dog trainers. It seems you do not understand even basic concepts of negative/positive reinforcement. A good training involves not one or the other, but both given at appropriate moments. Beating the dog is bad, making the dog afraid of you is even worse. Thats not the point of methods i use. Can you understand that for each situation there are different methods of approach that work best? In alot of situation you have to make a point to a dog that behavior is undesirable and there is no way outside a correction to tell the dog.
I feel that alot of people are not understanding what I write, or they simply choose to ignore it.
I never saw a dog that was hurt by a stern no and little shake by its scruff.
Im not sure about your backgrounds with dogs but in my experience some of the things you people post make me doubt your credentials as dog trainers. It seems you do not understand even basic concepts of negative/positive reinforcement. A good training involves not one or the other, but both given at appropriate moments. Beating the dog is bad, making the dog afraid of you is even worse. Thats not the point of methods i use. Can you understand that for each situation there are different methods of approach that work best? In alot of situation you have to make a point to a dog that behavior is undesirable and there is no way outside a correction to tell the dog.
I feel that alot of people are not understanding what I write, or they simply choose to ignore it.
There may be some misunderstanding, Orion. Some of your posts sound like you're advocating something more serious.
That said, I never, ever use a physical correction until I KNOW my dog understands exactly what I want and chooses to ignore. Even then, the only thing that actually gets my grrrls attention is a switch. It stings, which gets their attention immediately, THEN I can tell them what I want them to do. Shiva had a problem with recall for awhile. If she was particularly enjoying something she just saw no reason to come. All it took was one time. I told her if I had to come and get her she'd be sorry, telling her I was cutting a switch! When I got there I gave her a flick on the back of her legs and she ran ten feet up the driveway and sat down and waited for me, then walked right by my side the rest of the way. I'm having (finally) some success with calling Kharma away from the windows - barking and generally going insane over the cows. She's much better about coming away from the windows when I call her - I rarely have to tell her not to make me get the switch, lol!
I've NEVER dealt with dogs like these two! Even Buffy, our first Fila, was a dream to work with. There wasn't really any "working" to it; you just told her what you wanted and that was that. She couldn't bear any sort of affront to her dignity, so doing anything that might result in a scolding was not to be thought of!
Bimmer, on the other hand, has never had to have more than a lecture. And he does correct the grrrrls; physically if he thinks it necessary . . .
That said, I never, ever use a physical correction until I KNOW my dog understands exactly what I want and chooses to ignore. Even then, the only thing that actually gets my grrrls attention is a switch. It stings, which gets their attention immediately, THEN I can tell them what I want them to do. Shiva had a problem with recall for awhile. If she was particularly enjoying something she just saw no reason to come. All it took was one time. I told her if I had to come and get her she'd be sorry, telling her I was cutting a switch! When I got there I gave her a flick on the back of her legs and she ran ten feet up the driveway and sat down and waited for me, then walked right by my side the rest of the way. I'm having (finally) some success with calling Kharma away from the windows - barking and generally going insane over the cows. She's much better about coming away from the windows when I call her - I rarely have to tell her not to make me get the switch, lol!
I've NEVER dealt with dogs like these two! Even Buffy, our first Fila, was a dream to work with. There wasn't really any "working" to it; you just told her what you wanted and that was that. She couldn't bear any sort of affront to her dignity, so doing anything that might result in a scolding was not to be thought of!
Bimmer, on the other hand, has never had to have more than a lecture. And he does correct the grrrrls; physically if he thinks it necessary . . .