puppy won't stop biting/nipping

oriondw

user not active
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,039
Likes
1
Points
0
#21
When he bites, wrap your fingers around his lip. He will bite his own lip and thats not fun.

If he continues to bite, take 2 fingers and gently insert them down their mouth. Noth far enough to cause vomiting but further then comfortable.

Just show him that biting family is not fun and is not accepted.
 

spudy

New Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
34
Likes
0
Points
0
#22
put a bitter tast on where every the puppys biting at and he well stop



any thing the dog does not like
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#23
Why does everyone think you have to use pain, discomfort, intimidation to train a tiny, baby pup????????? He doesn't know anything. And his gums are already painful from teething.

I have had and trained pups for about 40 years and have never ever had to use these aversives. THIS IS NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR. They are teething. They are practicing for when they grow up and have to hunt. (in the wild) It is play. This learning is a gradual process. Why teach your dog to distrust and fear you when it comes to play with you?????????? Why associate yourself with pain and a rotten time to the pup????
Don't you want to represent a leader who the pup trusts and looks up to? You CAN teach the pup to get over this WITHOUT harsh or negative consequences.

Don't give a payoff (fun, treats, attention, affection) while the pup is biting you. Remove yourself from his area.

Give a payoff when the dog is NOT biting or chewing you. Give attention, affection, fun, treats when he is displaying desireable behavior.

Give him an alternative to chew and bite, a teething toy, something cold to relieve his painful gums.

Give it some time. This does not stop overnight.

Let your puppy be a puppy. Don't ruin his spirit by causing him pain or fear. He'll never develop an exuberant desire to learn if you dampen his spirit.
 

showpug

New Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
5,218
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
Oregon
#24
Have to say the I agree with Doberluv :) All puppies do this and they outgrow it. It's one thing if the pup was biting like this at 6 months or more, but you never hear about that do you? Nope, because they OUTGROW IT!! :)
 

Barb04

Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
27,429
Likes
4
Points
38
#25
Well said Doberluv. I got similar advice from Emma which has helped me with Kona.
 

oriondw

user not active
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,039
Likes
1
Points
0
#26
Doberluv said:
Why does everyone think you have to use pain, discomfort, intimidation to train a tiny, baby pup????????? He doesn't know anything. And his gums are already painful from teething.

I have had and trained pups for about 40 years and have never ever had to use these aversives. THIS IS NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR. They are teething. They are practicing for when they grow up and have to hunt. (in the wild) It is play. This learning is a gradual process. Why teach your dog to distrust and fear you when it comes to play with you?????????? Why associate yourself with pain and a rotten time to the pup????
Don't you want to represent a leader who the pup trusts and looks up to? You CAN teach the pup to get over this WITHOUT harsh or negative consequences.

Don't give a payoff (fun, treats, attention, affection) while the pup is biting you. Remove yourself from his area.

Give a payoff when the dog is NOT biting or chewing you. Give attention, affection, fun, treats when he is displaying desireable behavior.

Give him an alternative to chew and bite, a teething toy, something cold to relieve his painful gums.

Give it some time. This does not stop overnight.

Let your puppy be a puppy. Don't ruin his spirit by causing him pain or fear. He'll never develop an exuberant desire to learn if you dampen his spirit.
I dont know why, but i have hard time believing you have trained puppies for over 40 years. Maybe miniture poodle puppies :)
I have never heard the theory of teething for reason to practice hunting. I always though it was to set in their teeth and to relieve the pain.

There are different means to ends. You like the slow way. Some people like fast way. Nothing wrong with either.

My pup got the idea of people bad, toys good really fast without any excruciating pain ( biting his own gum isnt that). And no he is not afraid of me.


If you dont believe in using negative reinforcement, fine. I fail to see how you tell the pup the behavior is undesirable by simply avoiding it. I have little experience with small dogs, but dogs with already low to non-existant bite inhibition have to learn early on that biting is NOT ok. If you dont teach them you're just asking for more trouble later on.
;)
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
355
Likes
0
Points
0
Age
57
Location
Kentucky
#27
Well I'm sorry but I have to agree with doberluv on this one. We also went through the puppy biting stage and tried the yelping, tried the yelling "no", tried switching a toy for our hands, and the only thing that worked was leaving the room and getting a way from her. When I came back if she did it again I would "no bite" and walk away again, trust me it didn't take her very long to figure out if she bites all over me when I say enough I'm going to walk away. Dogs are smarter than we think, I know she is.
 

Saje

Island dweller
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
23,932
Likes
1
Points
38
#28
oriondw said:
If you dont believe in using negative reinforcement, fine. I fail to see how you tell the pup the behavior is undesirable by simply avoiding it. I have little experience with small dogs, but dogs with already low to non-existant bite inhibition have to learn early on that biting is NOT ok. If you dont teach them you're just asking for more trouble later on.
;)
Very few people on this forum like negative reinforcement training and I certainly do not want to promote it.

Doberluv has proven that she experienced with dogs over and over with her insightful posts and helpful advice.

Teaching them not to bite does take a long time. It's not something that you should expect to happen overnight and it works in conjunction with them outgrowing it.
 

oriondw

user not active
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,039
Likes
1
Points
0
#29
Saje said:
Very few people on this forum like negative reinforcement training and I certainly do not want to promote it.

Doberluv has proven that she experienced with dogs over and over with her insightful posts and helpful advice.

Teaching them not to bite does take a long time. It's not something that you should expect to happen overnight and it works in conjunction with them outgrowing it.
I was joking about 40 years and small dogs ;)

I dont doubt the credentials, i just think there are diferent ways of doing things.

She made it sound like negative reinforcement is something cruel, which it is not
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#30
First off...I'm old as dirt. So 40 years isn't a really long time.

Second: I did quite a bit of study of animal behavior in college and trained dogs and horses, not professionally. And I'm not an expert. And I have lots more to learn which I hope to learn from some real trainers here like CT and another on another board. But I have had good success with dogs and horses. No Miniature Poodles yet.

Third: I meant that the dog has teething pain. (just like baby people) And in addition to that, the puppy play, biting, chewing, jumping, yapping, stalking is all practice for hunting later on.

In the animal behavior schooling I remember and one thing I learned as I obsessed over reading for the past few years, I mean obsessive compulsive disorder....like at least 8 hours a day reading...is that studies have shown how all living things learn or will repeat a behavior when there's something in it for them. They will work better for those ends than they will to avoid punishment. They will turn out happier, better adjusted emotionally and indeed, smarter. That's because it makes them THINK. It makes them problem solve. They then, can apply what they learn in one context to another. It will make learning snowball. This is diametrically opposed to dominating a dog and intimidating it into compliance. No, all negative consequences are not mean and vicious. That is not the entire point.

When they train dolphins or killer whales, do you think they can punish them? Would squeezing their snout closed bother them or slapping them around? No, so they use all "happy" training, nothing harsh or nasty... just reward. Did you ever see them perform at Sea World? Pretty decent tricks and training, I'd say.

The thing is that you don't have to resort to pinching, yanking, squeezing, scruffing, squirting with water, holding their muzzles closed, sticking your fingers down their throats, making them bite their own tongues to TEACH THEM TO STOP BITING. These are babies. It is not necessary to be freaking them out. What is it that so many have such a reluctance to try a method which works but is gentle? People are successful all over the world with this type of training. It is really nothing new at all. It's based on priciples of operant and classical conditioning, among other studies. It's just making a sort of re- emergence lately.

Did anyone see the horse wisperer?

Creature Teacher put up an excellent list of books on training. Where was that now? I'll put it here when I come across it.

Trying to find a quick fix in training dogs will do nothing but backfire later. There is no quick fix. To train is to have patience and to learn is to absorb things one by one. A baby doesn't run and shoot baskets before it can crawl.

Teaching a child to do fractions comes by showing them and encouraging them, praising them when they get it. They do not learn by slapping, scruffing, pinching, squirting or berating.
 

Saje

Island dweller
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
23,932
Likes
1
Points
38
#31
I've seen the Horse Whisperer and read the book. I own the dvd and the book. Actually I've read all three of Nicholas Evans books and the second one, The Loop, is even better! And I loved the Horse Whisperer. That was a long movie though and I think it takes a certain kind of person to watch it. I know some of my friends didn't appreciate it the same way.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#32
Wasn't it wonderful? Yes, quiet minds, quiet hands. (that's not from the horse wisperer. That's my own little quote for the day.) LOL.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#33
Thank you Saje for your kind words.

Barb and Yorki....I'm so glad your little furpals got onto it. You treated them fairly and they wanted to learn.

Showpug, I agree with you. A lot of it has to do with maturing with a little help and guidance from us. It really doesn't need to be such a big deal....this puppyhood.
 

Saje

Island dweller
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
23,932
Likes
1
Points
38
#34
It was wonderful. And Scarlette Johanssen is great. she's really... blossomed!

All scarlette's are wonderful I think. ;)
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
1,445
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Denver, CO
#35
Okay, this is going to get long and preachy. :) I probably don't need to add that Doberluv has my complete backing in this case. I also get extremely frustrated (although I do my very best to take it out in my evening exercises) with people taking the "easy way out" with punishment-based training.

Animal behavior is hard to understand; it's simpler to just use aversive consequences to punish behaviors than it is to learn and comprehend the reasons behind behaviors and treat them with an effective positive solution. It was years before the "DogMind" finally clicked with me. Training effectively takes time, effort, empathy, and a lot of brain twisting to see things from the subject's point of view. That's why people ask trainers to help them. We spend 24 hours a day trying to think like our subjects, and to see through their eyes. But then of course we're competing with people who call themselves "trainers" and are really just abusers. They'll beat your dog into submission and charge you for it. They've had us all fooled for years; people who trained without punishment 50 years ago were either magicians or whack-jobs. Now that there's solid ethological evidence to support positive training, why are folks still so stuck on using aversive consequences? Probably because we don't want to acknowledge that it's easier to let our frustration and irritation out on a dog who won't fight back than it is to use that towering intellect we're so convinced we've got. Smacking a dog with a newspaper makes us feel big and in control. Stopping to think about whether we'd like to be smacked with a newspaper never enters into it. Dogs are a socially acceptable outlet for our emotions, good and bad.

But why would a compassionate person, claiming to love their dog, claiming that, "he's like family", do things that cause a dog to be afraid, uncomfortable, or in pain when we know there's a better way? We've developed an entire science to understand animal behavior and learning. We've shown conclusively that animals that learn through positive reinforcement are quicker and more receptive to learning than animals that learn through punishment and aversive consequences. We've developed concrete methods and rules that govern the principles of positive reinforcement in behavior modification. We've applied these methods successfully and praise the people who use them as brilliant teachers of animals.

There is no longer any excuse, short of ignorance, laziness, and disinterest, to use punishment on an animal. We know better now. And those of us who don't know better are obliged to educate themselves. Punishment is cruel, because it has been rendered obsolete in training. If it was our only choice, if it was the only way, it would be an unfortunate necessity. But there is a choice.

Think about this: You've got a whip in your hand and popsicles in the freezer, and your child is in front of the TV wiping boogers on your new carpet. You can use the whip now to punish the undesirable behavior, or you can get off the couch and go to the freezer and get a popsicle, and come allllll the way back to the couch and use the popsicle to reward a desirable behavior (i.e. wiping boogers on a kleenex instead). Do you whip the kid? It'll stop him from putting boogers on your carpet, right? Then why not? Because the freezer isn't actually that far away; because you don't want to cause someone you love unnecessary pain for something as silly as boogers on the carpet; because you feel empathy for the kid; because the kid is just doing what kids do; because you can get the same result with the popsicle. The difference is in how much you actually care about the person you love, and how much effort you're willing to put into teaching them in a humane manner. You can whip, but your relationship will suffer. Positive reinforcement strengthens relationships, and enhances mutual respect and understanding.

I've trained with several different methods. I was taught what most of us grew up with; leash corrections, push on his butt to teach him to sit, rub his nose in it, squeeze his toes or knee his chest when he jumps on you. I began training professionally out of a sincere love of all things canine and because I was absolutely intrigued by behavior. I started out with what I knew. Then I learned about positive reinforcement, and mixed it with punishment training. To my delight, my subjects' learning sped up. As I worked with dogs and learned to really listen to them, I realized that the punishment was only holding us back, tangibly in training but also emotionally. I'd read about the "trainer's dance", people working so well with animals that they can feel the connection in their heads. I badly wanted the dance to come to me. So I just took that last little step and left all the bitter apple, choke chains, and muzzles behind. And again, learning sped up. Suddenly my subjects were geniuses and prodigies, every one.

Positive training is faster, more effective, more humane, and much more fun than punishment-based training. It does wonders for relationships and never fails to amaze those who try it. It's really a modern scientific miracle. It baffles me that some people consider it stupid or ineffective, and it worries me that they aren't willing to learn why it works and how to use it. If we're going to call ourselves compassionate and enlightened, we're going to have to start walking the walk. The way we treat our animals, those who rely on us completely and trust us wholeheartedly, tells more about ourselves than the way we treat each other.
 

Saje

Island dweller
Joined
Dec 26, 2004
Messages
23,932
Likes
1
Points
38
#36
Wow. You always say the right thing Emma! That was perfect. :D
Here's your star:

 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#39
Creature Teacher's not a preacher,
She's enlightened. Don't be frightened,

Make yourselves and your doggies happy,
show them it's good not to be snappy.

Show them the way with kindness and clarity,
You'll be glad when fear and pain is a rarity.

Tee hee hee.
 

Members online

Top