Post about Ojeriza
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Me personally? No, I would never encourage the attacking a stick or a judge. I actually emailed the breeder just now, I'm curious to know how the temperament test is actually performed. Is the fila provoked by the person holding the stick? Or are they just supposed to attack some silly stick? I mean... that's kind of odd.
I can also tell you the only way Bella has ever "attacked" a stick is by carrying it around the yard with her and then pouncing on it, then picking it back up and prancing around.
I can also tell you the only way Bella has ever "attacked" a stick is by carrying it around the yard with her and then pouncing on it, then picking it back up and prancing around.
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Actually, since I've begun my researching fila breeders a few years back, the BYB's that I've become familiar with are churning out dogs that are too "soft" according to the fila standard. Not the other way around.
If you visit the fila boards, there are many buyers who complain of their pups hitting maturity and not having a bit of ojeriza.
If you visit the fila boards, there are many buyers who complain of their pups hitting maturity and not having a bit of ojeriza.
I know exactly what it produces. I've got one in my "back yard," so to speak. Paul, in a little community called Turtletown southwest of me in Tennessee at Shoo-Its. SHOO-ITS MOUNTAIN FILAS
He's a real piece of work and I've run across a few people who have gotten a dog from him. Kharma is a revelation to them. One woman who has a bitch from Shoo-Its lines was in tears after she met Kharma at a weight pull, seeing what her dog COULD have been -- even in spite of less than stellar breeding, if she'd dealt with a breeder who cared about educating instead of cashing the check.
So, yah, I know better than most. And I DO -- or mostly Kharma does -- over and above her part. We can show people, and we can tell the ones we don't see face to face, but when we keep hearing the same lame BS over and over from the same people, well, enough's enough. At some point you realize you're wasting your time with people who only want to argue to hear themselves talking.
He's a real piece of work and I've run across a few people who have gotten a dog from him. Kharma is a revelation to them. One woman who has a bitch from Shoo-Its lines was in tears after she met Kharma at a weight pull, seeing what her dog COULD have been -- even in spite of less than stellar breeding, if she'd dealt with a breeder who cared about educating instead of cashing the check.
So, yah, I know better than most. And I DO -- or mostly Kharma does -- over and above her part. We can show people, and we can tell the ones we don't see face to face, but when we keep hearing the same lame BS over and over from the same people, well, enough's enough. At some point you realize you're wasting your time with people who only want to argue to hear themselves talking.
And both Renee and I have said that Filas are NOT aggressive and those breeding for aggression or training for aggression do NOT have a Fila with correct temperament.
Filas were bred to hold.. that is what they do. They would hunt down slaves and HOLD them. For Goodness sakes why would they attack them and kill them? Those slaves were needed! If you were to come into my house uninvited you would be frozen in your own fear and pee. In fact, the dog that you would need to really worry about is Banzai, but that is for another thread.
You can't train the distrust of strangers out of a Fila. It's just not going to happen. You socialize your dog and you teach them what is and what is not acceptable. You go through day-to-day activities and let them know that those are okay. I don't have people randomly breaking in through a window, so yeah, someone foolish enough to still come in even after hearing all the barking and such would be in for quite a surprise because that is not normal.
My dogs are no more a liability than your dogs. It's all about responsible ownership.
You must woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. There has been information given on this thread, I guess you missed it playing devil's advocate. Until you yourself have owned a fila, then you really have no idea. I can attest to this. After all the research we did about Filas and countless conversations with Renee, we still didn't full understand. And you won't until you at last meet one and see their interactions in the world or own one. So there is a lot of validity in that when either Renee or I say you don't have a clue until you own one.
Filas were bred to hold.. that is what they do. They would hunt down slaves and HOLD them. For Goodness sakes why would they attack them and kill them? Those slaves were needed! If you were to come into my house uninvited you would be frozen in your own fear and pee. In fact, the dog that you would need to really worry about is Banzai, but that is for another thread.
You can't train the distrust of strangers out of a Fila. It's just not going to happen. You socialize your dog and you teach them what is and what is not acceptable. You go through day-to-day activities and let them know that those are okay. I don't have people randomly breaking in through a window, so yeah, someone foolish enough to still come in even after hearing all the barking and such would be in for quite a surprise because that is not normal.
My dogs are no more a liability than your dogs. It's all about responsible ownership.
You must woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
There has been information given on this thread, I guess you missed it playing devil's advocate. Until you yourself have owned a fila, then you really have no idea. I can attest to this. After all the research we did about Filas and countless conversations with Renee, we still didn't full understand. And you won't until you at last meet one and see their interactions in the world or own one. So there is a lot of validity in that when either Renee or I say you don't have a clue until you own one.
However, I was never playing devil's advocate. If you read my posts I was defending the breed against opinions that they should be restricted by law. You have as much right to own your breed as I do to own mine.
What I took issue with is the "you don't own one so you can't talk about them and are idiots," especially in the absence of other information. If I'm missing something, I'm willing to learn--there is no need for rudeness.
There are *tons* of people on here who will gladly bash the AKC without participating in AKC events or being a member. It seems perfectly acceptable for members to criticize the breeding practices of breeds that they have never owned and in some cases don't even like. There also seems to be no issue with calling breeders unrepuatable if they don't get the "right" titles on their dogs, but try to discuss Filas without owning one and all hell breaks loose.
It just seems unproductive and bad for the breed, that's all I'm saying....
Renee, Thanks for the information on Shoo-its.
It appears from their website:
Shooits Mountain Filas that they are serious/well known breeders. They publish "Filatalk" magazine.
That said, some of the "protection stories" on pages 3&4 are scary stuff.
Owners talk about taking the dogs into public places where they lunge at non-threatening strangers with ill intent...and these particular owners think that is a good thing worthy of a magazine write up.
Buddy'sParents....do you think dogs with the temperament described here should be walked through a Petsmart where ignorant kids can try to pet them? Or, is "Filatalk" not an accurate representation of the breed?
It appears from their website:
Shooits Mountain Filas that they are serious/well known breeders. They publish "Filatalk" magazine.
That said, some of the "protection stories" on pages 3&4 are scary stuff.
Owners talk about taking the dogs into public places where they lunge at non-threatening strangers with ill intent...and these particular owners think that is a good thing worthy of a magazine write up.
Buddy'sParents....do you think dogs with the temperament described here should be walked through a Petsmart where ignorant kids can try to pet them? Or, is "Filatalk" not an accurate representation of the breed?
Me personally? No, I would never encourage the attacking a stick or a judge. I actually emailed the breeder just now, I'm curious to know how the temperament test is actually performed. Is the fila provoked by the person holding the stick? Or are they just supposed to attack some silly stick? I mean... that's kind of odd.
I can also tell you the only way Bella has ever "attacked" a stick is by carrying it around the yard with her and then pouncing on it, then picking it back up and prancing around.
I can also tell you the only way Bella has ever "attacked" a stick is by carrying it around the yard with her and then pouncing on it, then picking it back up and prancing around.
One problem, though, with the testing that I've wondered about just from owning Buffy and Kharma is the difference in their demeanor when they're on their own turf and when they aren't. Buffy and Kharma both were/are far more circumspect in their reactions when off the home territory. The space around me that they protect is much smaller -- someone just walking past, as long as they don't make threatening overtures is noted but not "watched." A benign stranger can approach us, and if I greet them, the dog is watchful, and stands angled beside me and partially between us, but doesn't act. She's there if anything happens, and you know it, but she knows her business.
At home? Let me meet you at the car, lol! Then we'll do introductions.
Paul is reprehensible.
He's even been known to ship 4 week old puppies across country - after lying about their ages, then refusing to send the dog's papers.
He breeds lines he knows produce mono and cryptorchid dogs.
It would be difficult to find a worse example of a Fila breeder. And get the brags on 200+ pound Filas . . . Shoo-Its is the Fila equivalent of some of the gangsta "Pitbull" kennels.
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I can't, for some reason, access their site, it won't load. So I can't say as I can't read with my own eyes what is written.
BUT, Bella goes to petsmart, but mostly to our local petstore where she is just like any other dog.. fawned over, given treats, etc.. I don't particularly like Petsmart, because in our area, the most ideal pet owners do not go there, they go to our local store.
Having said that, NO ONE rushes my dog. We take extreme caution when we have Bella out, because there are plenty of idiots that think its okay, "OHHHH! Look at that sweeeeet dog" as they rush her thinking she is going to love on them. Nope, doesn't happen.
I was talking to Nolu the other day... last weekend we took Bella to a petsmart (not our local one as we were out of town). An employee decides that Bella is just too cute and used that high pitched voice and started to approach her. I intercepted her and gave her a "NO" that probably scared the crap out of her. I absolutely have no issues getting in someone's face/way and telling them to back off and that includes children. I have NO respect for anyone who just approaches any dog with asking the owner first. Even before I had dogs myself, I always asked first. And yes, some people do get to pet Bella, but that is strictly on her terms and I do not force her.
BUT, Bella goes to petsmart, but mostly to our local petstore where she is just like any other dog.. fawned over, given treats, etc.. I don't particularly like Petsmart, because in our area, the most ideal pet owners do not go there, they go to our local store.
Having said that, NO ONE rushes my dog. We take extreme caution when we have Bella out, because there are plenty of idiots that think its okay, "OHHHH! Look at that sweeeeet dog" as they rush her thinking she is going to love on them. Nope, doesn't happen.
I was talking to Nolu the other day... last weekend we took Bella to a petsmart (not our local one as we were out of town). An employee decides that Bella is just too cute and used that high pitched voice and started to approach her. I intercepted her and gave her a "NO" that probably scared the crap out of her. I absolutely have no issues getting in someone's face/way and telling them to back off and that includes children. I have NO respect for anyone who just approaches any dog with asking the owner first. Even before I had dogs myself, I always asked first. And yes, some people do get to pet Bella, but that is strictly on her terms and I do not force her.
You can see plenty of "temperament testing" of filas on youtube.
I have no idea how reputable they are though.... a few for your viewing pleasure:
YouTube - Fila Brasileiro CAFIB
YouTube - Sirena-CAFIB-Fila_dogs.wmv
YouTube - JUBA FILAS DE FAZENDA - TEMPERAMENTO
And just these two because they look like great dogs:
YouTube - Fila Brasileiro Dogs Fit For Duty
I have no idea how reputable they are though.... a few for your viewing pleasure:
YouTube - Fila Brasileiro CAFIB
YouTube - Sirena-CAFIB-Fila_dogs.wmv
YouTube - JUBA FILAS DE FAZENDA - TEMPERAMENTO
And just these two because they look like great dogs:
YouTube - Fila Brasileiro Dogs Fit For Duty
You'll find quite a few vids of "testing" that come from South America, where, well, there are a lot of unfortunate things going on with the breed. There is a great deal of the same thing going on there with the Fila as is going on here with the mutant Pit Bulls being bred.
Getting an imported Fila is becoming more and more of a crapshoot unless you travel to the area yourself or have a VERY trusted liason.
Even - no, especially the show lines are suspect, as there is a great deal of papering done AT the show of dogs of unknown and even mixed parentage, as long as the money is right.
Getting an imported Fila is becoming more and more of a crapshoot unless you travel to the area yourself or have a VERY trusted liason.
Even - no, especially the show lines are suspect, as there is a great deal of papering done AT the show of dogs of unknown and even mixed parentage, as long as the money is right.
Forgive me as I will be replying quote by quote.
Ahhh...and this, my friend, is the very first statement out of all the Aristas mouths when they are promoting Breed Specific Legislation. So instead of targeting the irresponsible owners who get their hands on the breed, we should just ban 'pit bulls' altogether as we cannot control who owns them.
And here we have yet another justification for BSL.
I wish I lived where you lived because the bybs here love to make such claims. It's their best selling point.
So all in favor of BSL raise your hand.
Many know I will soon be getting a Fila. But for the past several months I have been doing as much research as I can and I have strived to get that information from reputable sources and not random google and youtube searches. As I thought we all know, the information is only as reliable as those giving it.
What I found amazing was that much of the description of Filas reminded me so much of my Shar Pei/Cane Corso mix, Wrigley. And maybe I'm missing the true dfinition of ojeriza myself, but I cannot help but wonder if I do have it down correctly.
You see, Wrigley was an extremely protective dog. He was an extremely intelligent dog. He didn't need me to think for him nor did he always want me thinking for him. Of course obedience training was an everyday affair at my house with him, but it was a heck of a lot more challenging than with my APBTs. Why? Because he thought for himself. I have never believed in dogs actually being able to make decisions or even rationalize (in their own doggy way of course) until I owned him.
Wrigley was a very confidant dog and that was evident in the way he carried himself and the way he presented himself to other dogs and other humans. In fact, that confidance often led to him approaching other dogs and humans alike in a very dominant manner. After all, in his mind the only human above him in the chain was me, and yet I was his to protect and be loyal to and love. People didn't just get his affection by meeting him. People had to earn it.
I don't believe Wrigley had a natural distrust of strangers, but he was wary of them to some extent but mostly he was indifferent unless they did something to catch his attention. He would ignore people yet keep his eye on them at the same time. He put forth a deep warning to 4 people in his entire lifetime. And I have no problems with what he did. In the first incident, I had an extremely shady landlord and he came over and just helped himself into my home where me & my roommates were at. Wrigley, right under a year old, immediately took up an "aggressive" stance yet offered no verbal warning. Then we the guy approached me, Wrigley immediately go in the way and uttered a very low growl full of warning. I did not ask this dog to do this. He did it on his own. In the end, the landlord left (of course not without me threatening to call the police...we soon moved out).
The 2nd time was right after we moved and a new neighbor came to introduce himself. The neighbor approached with a smile on his face and a laid back demeanor, but again Wrigley got in between him & me and growled. This time the verbal warning started immediately & Wrigley actually took a step towards him to show him he wasn't messing around. I knew then to trust my dog. 3 years later I found out he was a registered sex offender who had raped boys under 10 and then was impersonating an officer on the interstate and raping women.
The 3rd time was when I moved into my home after getting married. Wrigley had not gotten aggressive/defensive with anyone in years, so in a way I was shocked when a neighbor's mid-20's son was walking down the street and Wrigley immediately took a stance between him and me and started growling. This time his growl was loud enough to be heard to the street and it got the guy's attention. They guy looked a little unnerved, but Wrigley kept up the stance and growl until he was completely out of site. I'm sure to some of y'all I should've corrected him as that is unwarranted behavior, but it wasn't to me. Wrigley had already proven to me that he was capable of perceiving a threat and he more than happily took it upon himself to act as the defender in those situations.
I loved that dog. I would give all my dogs up to have just him. He served his time on this earth with me and taught me all about dogs that didn't have the standard love everybody attitude that my APBTs had/have. That didn't make me any worse of a dog, it just made him different. And of course I had to train him differently and handle him differently, but that is not a negative issue. It's just a different kind of responsiblity and love.
So I believe I can somewhat understand a Fila. If you're a stranger, they aren't going to love you. In fact, they may not even like you. But they aren't going to just bite you for no reason, but they will always have their eye on you and exhibit confidence and maybe even a touch of dominance just in their stance and demeanor. And I for one cannot fault that. It's what they are. Just like my APBTs are dog aggressive. I love them for them and I treat/handle them accordingly.
Bad owners exist in every breed and those same owners are responsible for all the negative publicity. But it's asinine to not like breeds because of those owners and it is just downright idiotic to say that banning those breeds is safest for humans and dogs alike. BSL is never the answer. And ignorance on a topic is never an excuse.
Ahhh...and this, my friend, is the very first statement out of all the Aristas mouths when they are promoting Breed Specific Legislation. So instead of targeting the irresponsible owners who get their hands on the breed, we should just ban 'pit bulls' altogether as we cannot control who owns them.
And here we have yet another justification for BSL.
I wish I lived where you lived because the bybs here love to make such claims. It's their best selling point.
So all in favor of BSL raise your hand.
Many know I will soon be getting a Fila. But for the past several months I have been doing as much research as I can and I have strived to get that information from reputable sources and not random google and youtube searches. As I thought we all know, the information is only as reliable as those giving it.
What I found amazing was that much of the description of Filas reminded me so much of my Shar Pei/Cane Corso mix, Wrigley. And maybe I'm missing the true dfinition of ojeriza myself, but I cannot help but wonder if I do have it down correctly.
You see, Wrigley was an extremely protective dog. He was an extremely intelligent dog. He didn't need me to think for him nor did he always want me thinking for him. Of course obedience training was an everyday affair at my house with him, but it was a heck of a lot more challenging than with my APBTs. Why? Because he thought for himself. I have never believed in dogs actually being able to make decisions or even rationalize (in their own doggy way of course) until I owned him.
Wrigley was a very confidant dog and that was evident in the way he carried himself and the way he presented himself to other dogs and other humans. In fact, that confidance often led to him approaching other dogs and humans alike in a very dominant manner. After all, in his mind the only human above him in the chain was me, and yet I was his to protect and be loyal to and love. People didn't just get his affection by meeting him. People had to earn it.
I don't believe Wrigley had a natural distrust of strangers, but he was wary of them to some extent but mostly he was indifferent unless they did something to catch his attention. He would ignore people yet keep his eye on them at the same time. He put forth a deep warning to 4 people in his entire lifetime. And I have no problems with what he did. In the first incident, I had an extremely shady landlord and he came over and just helped himself into my home where me & my roommates were at. Wrigley, right under a year old, immediately took up an "aggressive" stance yet offered no verbal warning. Then we the guy approached me, Wrigley immediately go in the way and uttered a very low growl full of warning. I did not ask this dog to do this. He did it on his own. In the end, the landlord left (of course not without me threatening to call the police...we soon moved out).
The 2nd time was right after we moved and a new neighbor came to introduce himself. The neighbor approached with a smile on his face and a laid back demeanor, but again Wrigley got in between him & me and growled. This time the verbal warning started immediately & Wrigley actually took a step towards him to show him he wasn't messing around. I knew then to trust my dog. 3 years later I found out he was a registered sex offender who had raped boys under 10 and then was impersonating an officer on the interstate and raping women.
The 3rd time was when I moved into my home after getting married. Wrigley had not gotten aggressive/defensive with anyone in years, so in a way I was shocked when a neighbor's mid-20's son was walking down the street and Wrigley immediately took a stance between him and me and started growling. This time his growl was loud enough to be heard to the street and it got the guy's attention. They guy looked a little unnerved, but Wrigley kept up the stance and growl until he was completely out of site. I'm sure to some of y'all I should've corrected him as that is unwarranted behavior, but it wasn't to me. Wrigley had already proven to me that he was capable of perceiving a threat and he more than happily took it upon himself to act as the defender in those situations.
I loved that dog. I would give all my dogs up to have just him. He served his time on this earth with me and taught me all about dogs that didn't have the standard love everybody attitude that my APBTs had/have. That didn't make me any worse of a dog, it just made him different. And of course I had to train him differently and handle him differently, but that is not a negative issue. It's just a different kind of responsiblity and love.
So I believe I can somewhat understand a Fila. If you're a stranger, they aren't going to love you. In fact, they may not even like you. But they aren't going to just bite you for no reason, but they will always have their eye on you and exhibit confidence and maybe even a touch of dominance just in their stance and demeanor. And I for one cannot fault that. It's what they are. Just like my APBTs are dog aggressive. I love them for them and I treat/handle them accordingly.
Bad owners exist in every breed and those same owners are responsible for all the negative publicity. But it's asinine to not like breeds because of those owners and it is just downright idiotic to say that banning those breeds is safest for humans and dogs alike. BSL is never the answer. And ignorance on a topic is never an excuse.
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Eh...I forgot to add what I take the term ojeriza to mean. The way I perceive it, it's a dog that is not fearful or afraid or submissive. It's a dog not afraid to take up an aggressive/defensive stance towards someone it doesn't know. It's a dog that puts out a signal, body wise, that it's not going to back down if you so challenge it. It's a dog that has no problem acting when challenged. But yet it's a dog that is intelligent enough to know a true threat/challenge from a non-threat.
I do not believe the term means a dog that just outright attacks some person walking down the street with their kid. It's not a dog that acts like a fool straining to get ahold of someone for no reason than because it can.
And from the vet standpoint of it all, I have no problem with guardian-type dogs that do not want our hands all over him. I have dealt with many Cane Corsos, Rottweilers, GSD's, Shar Pei's, & English Mastiff's that are fine when you are just in the room talking to their owner but yet immediately take up a stance of "get your hands off me" when we start the physical. The owners (responsible ones) are fine-tuned with their dogs and either can help us handle them without a muzzle or they bring a muzzle with them and put it on the dog right before the exam starts.
On the other hand, I've dealt with dogs that have lunged at me for doing nothing more than walking in the room. I've seen dogs so worked up that they will turn and redirect onto their own owners if they cannot get to us. I was even bitten by a street trained protection dog (something I hate!) for doing nothing more than entering into the room. I've been bitten by a lab for doing nothing more than walking into the room and resting my arm on the exam table. But the difference is, IMO, that these dogs were more fearful than anything and act out of a lack of confidence more than anything. Those dogs, IMO, weren't of the proper temperament as a truely confidant dog doesn't have to attack first. It's mere presence exudes it's confidence to the "opposer' and usually that is enough for the opposer to step down.
But of course I would love to be corrected if I'm off.
I do not believe the term means a dog that just outright attacks some person walking down the street with their kid. It's not a dog that acts like a fool straining to get ahold of someone for no reason than because it can.
And from the vet standpoint of it all, I have no problem with guardian-type dogs that do not want our hands all over him. I have dealt with many Cane Corsos, Rottweilers, GSD's, Shar Pei's, & English Mastiff's that are fine when you are just in the room talking to their owner but yet immediately take up a stance of "get your hands off me" when we start the physical. The owners (responsible ones) are fine-tuned with their dogs and either can help us handle them without a muzzle or they bring a muzzle with them and put it on the dog right before the exam starts.
On the other hand, I've dealt with dogs that have lunged at me for doing nothing more than walking in the room. I've seen dogs so worked up that they will turn and redirect onto their own owners if they cannot get to us. I was even bitten by a street trained protection dog (something I hate!) for doing nothing more than entering into the room. I've been bitten by a lab for doing nothing more than walking into the room and resting my arm on the exam table. But the difference is, IMO, that these dogs were more fearful than anything and act out of a lack of confidence more than anything. Those dogs, IMO, weren't of the proper temperament as a truely confidant dog doesn't have to attack first. It's mere presence exudes it's confidence to the "opposer' and usually that is enough for the opposer to step down.
But of course I would love to be corrected if I'm off.