Post about Ojeriza

[Dizzy]

Renee - I think you're missing the point here.

It's all over the net about this "attacking strangers" - written by and for fila breeders and owners.

Whether I own a fila or not is neither here nor there.

I can look that up in a nanosecond. Imagine WHO is going to be attracted to that information?

Now add that to the fact it is endorsed by fila owners and the recipe = breed bans.

Whether aggression is not the word or not is not how it reads to the novice - and to the gangsta looking for a big scary dog.

And those people WILL be the majority of owners given this info, and they WILL breed for aggression as they are ignorant.

Then you won't have to be stressed or frustrated because you won't have a fila to own.

I can't understand how promoting this information and asking for it to be bred into a dog can possibly be a good thing for filas due to the nature of the people who will absolutely breed for aggression.

It's a sad fact in this day and age.

 

[Psyfalcon]

A few points:

Dizzy, many, many dogs will attack on their own initiative. I've seen Labs, and Pitbulls (against standards on those) Rotties, GSDs, etc, that would not be pleased to see you near the house at least a few of them would bite if you walked in uninvited, no owner home (therefore, no command). Never mind guarding behavior is actually written into most mastiff standards.

I've met 1 fila, from across the street. I don't think it looked up at me, and it certainly did not want to kill me. If I did something stupid, i bet things would have gotten very interesting, in a bad way for me. It could have been a softer line, or it could have decided that being across the street was good enough already.

Its hard to say its NOT aggression, where part of the standard mentions biting the judge is a good thing. But likewise, not all aggression is the same. These aren't dogs going out to kill everyone they see. Loose? If its an aversion to strangers, they would probably just skirt around people unless the issue was forced. Does it actually work that way? Would most or many put up with stupid kids who run up? They're certainly not the same threat as a full grown man?

BP says Bella can be loose if people are working in the house, I'm not sure how much a liability that is, it seems rather stable actually. I mean what good is a "guard" dog if you have to lock it up every time someone comes to the door?

 

[Buddy'sParents]

It's not about owning filas, or them being wary of strangers or even protective.

I think the key word is AGGRESSION.

If your fila is protective and TRAINED to attack on cue, then it is no different from other guarding dogs.

It's when a dog takes it upon itself to attack with no command that scares me.

And the fact that this body is endorsing this behaviour.

And both Renee and I have said that Filas are NOT aggressive and those breeding for aggression or training for aggression do NOT have a Fila with correct temperament.

Filas were bred to hold.. that is what they do. They would hunt down slaves and HOLD them. For Goodness sakes why would they attack them and kill them? Those slaves were needed! If you were to come into my house uninvited you would be frozen in your own fear and pee. In fact, the dog that you would need to really worry about is Banzai, but that is for another thread.

You can't train the distrust of strangers out of a Fila. It's just not going to happen. You socialize your dog and you teach them what is and what is not acceptable. You go through day-to-day activities and let them know that those are okay. I don't have people randomly breaking in through a window, so yeah, someone foolish enough to still come in even after hearing all the barking and such would be in for quite a surprise because that is not normal.

My dogs are no more a liability than your dogs. It's all about responsible ownership.

Like cursing the darkness rather than bothering to turn on the light....

If Filas fall into the same hands as pit bulls have, which is very likely, then you'd better get used to repeating the same information over and over and over if you want to continue to have the right to own the breed. Most people with pits and rots and other "marked" breeds spend their lives educating others about their dogs--it comes with the territory.

As far as handing people information--what info has been handed exactly on this thread? It's just been you telling people they're wrong and idiots and the articles they read are wrong--no actual information at all.

IMHO you have no right to bitch about ignorance if you refuse to educate.

You must woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. There has been information given on this thread, I guess you missed it playing devil's advocate. Until you yourself have owned a fila, then you really have no idea. I can attest to this. After all the research we did about Filas and countless conversations with Renee, we still didn't full understand. And you won't until you at last meet one and see their interactions in the world or own one. So there is a lot of validity in that when either Renee or I say you don't have a clue until you own one.

I typed a nice long, and peaceful reply to that blog owner and he denied my comment. Why? Because I shot holes through his "it's unethical to breed these dogs". Why? Because he lumped all fila owners in one large group and I stood up for those that do not have aggressive dogs. Will I concede that people are training Filas to be aggressive and breeding for aggressive traits? Yes. Do I find breeding filas to BE aggressive unethical? YES. But I don't have one of those Filas and never will. I have a fila true in temperament and that is what matters to me and I will stand up for her and others like her as long as I'm able.

 

[Renee750il]

That's why SOME of us are DOING things with our dogs -- letting them learn, taking them out in public.

But, we're fighting not only inexact translations, a parcel of idiots in our own midst, AND asshats who talk about things they have no first-hand knowledge about and would rather argue that "what they read on the internet" is more valid than anything anyone has LIVED.

After all, everything you read on the internet is gospel.

 

[Dizzy]

Yes - I understand that.

I am trying to make my point as clear as possible, because I don't think filas are all going to go out and kill people myself

Try looking at the information on the internet about filas from the guy who wants a big scary dog. NOT as someone who actually researches dogs or is part of a dog forum

It isn't about the DOGS - it is about the people surrounding them.

To have a breed standard which encourages biting, or at least says it is no bad thing is asking for trouble.

Can you imagine what kinds of dogs the average BYB is going to be churning out? And who is going to buy them?

It is THOSE people with NO understanding or care to understand that will outweigh the GOOD breeders and owners - think pitbull... you have to trawl through several hundred awful breeders with god knows what temperament dogs and methods of socialisation and care to find one good one.

You can't pick out one dog as a respresentative of a whole breed - you said that yourself.

Bella is probably a prime example of a well owned dog.

Sadly, however nice she is and a good representation of the breed she is, it won't help her if people are mistakingly breeding BAD filas - because those are the dogs or OWNERS/BREEDERS who will wind up getting the breed banned.

And their defence? I was sticking to the breed standard....?

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Its hard to say its NOT aggression, where part of the standard mentions biting the judge is a good thing.

Actually, judges are not permitted to touch filas in the ring. They are one of the very very few dogs who are not to be touched, due to their ojeriza. I certainly wouldn't want to be THAT judge.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Yes - I understand that.

I am trying to make my point as clear as possible, because I don't think filas are all going to go out and kill people myself

Try looking at the information on the internet about filas from the guy who wants a big scary dog. NOT as someone who actually researches dogs or is part of a dog forum

Good point- it's hard to me, I guess, to even think people would know about Filas because they aren't wildly popular yet.

It isn't about the DOGS - it is about the people surrounding them.

To have a breed standard which encourages biting, or at least says it is no bad thing is asking for trouble.

I guess I should read the breed standard, because I don't recall reading that it's okay to bite. I think there are two breed standards as well, so I will look them up.

Can you imagine what kinds of dogs the average BYB is going to be churning out? And who is going to buy them?

Yes, because it's happening and it's sickening. There is one in las vegas that is truly awful. Despicable even. It's very sad. I can only imagine what kind of dogs they are creating and it makes me worried for those that do what we do to help preserve our breed.

It is THOSE people with NO understanding or care to understand that will outweigh the GOOD breeders and owners - think pitbull... you have to trawl through several hundred awful breeders with god knows what temperament dogs and methods of socialisation and care to find one good one.

You can't pick out one dog as a respresentative of a whole breed - you said that yourself.

Bella is probably a prime example of a well owned dog.

Sadly, however nice she is and a good representation of the breed she is, it won't help her if people are mistakingly breeding BAD filas - because those are the dogs or OWNERS/BREEDERS who will wind up getting the breed banned.

And their defence? I was sticking to the breed standard....?

I have to say thankfully MANY people do not know what a fila is. And when people ask what Bella is? Oh, she's a mastiff.. because I don't WANT people to know who and what she is. In petsmart one night... kid 1: "WHOA! Look at that lab!" kid 2: "thats not a lab, that's a PIT BULL!" Yeah, you keep on guessing as to what she is. Once we were in our local petstore and someone said, is that a fila? I froze and thought, NO! How do they know?! lol But this person owns mastiffs herself and was very well aware of who and what Bella's breed is.

That said, Fila owners have a long road ahead of them- do doubt. But as long as there are responsible breeders and responsible owners, I'll keep faith.

 

[Dizzy]

So can you see my point of view? It's not about whether ojeriza = biting strangers or not.

That is how it is written - rightly or wrongly... and that kind of information WILL end up in the wrong hands.

Crikey - even I had to read it twice and didn't know the truth. Do these dogs attack at will or not?

You see what I am saying.

With that info out there, they WILL get more popular and for all the wrong reasons

 

[Dizzy]

Oh and the breed standard comparisons - see

As a result of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament.

Now imagine this in the hands of people....... bad bad bad...

 

[Renee750il]

We don't have to imagine it. We can see it -- right here

 

[jess2416]

BEHAVIOUR/TEMPERAMENT : Courage, determination and outstanding braveness are part of its characteristics. With its owners and family it is docile, obedient and extremely tolerant with children. Its loyalty is proverbial, insistingly seeking the company of its master.

One of its characteristics is its aloofness towards strangers. It displays a calm disposition, distinctive self-assurance and self-confidence, remaining unperturbed by strange noises or circumstances. An unsurpassed guardian of properties, it also instinctively indulges in big game hunting and cattle herding.

^^ is from the FCI site

 

[Dizzy]

We don't have to imagine it. We can see it -- right here

Renee - doesn't it scare you that it creates this much of a debate on a dog forum with people who actually get dogs for the RIGHT reasons?

Doesn't it worry you what this CAFIB standard will produce from the majority of bad breeders?

Or do you just think the odd good breeder is enough ?

I'd like to see your opinions rather than just the odd remark. You could add a lot to this thread.

 

[jess2416]

Fila Brasileiro Breed Standards

^^ are the two different standards

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Here is the breed standard from arba:

FILA BRASILEIRO

General Conformation
Typically molossoid breed Powerful bones. Rectangular structure. compact but harmonic and proportional. Added to his massiveness a great agility is easy to be seen. Bitches must show a well defined femininity which differs them immediately from males.

Character & Temperament
Courage, determination and outstanding braveness are part of his characteristics. He is docile to his owners and family and extremely tolerant with children. His faithfulness became a Brazilian proverb. He is always looking for the company of his master. One of his characteristics is hi s distrust (orig. ojeriza) of strangers. He shows a calm disposition, self assurance and self confidence not being disturbed by strange noises or when facing a new environment. An unsurpassed guardian of the property he is as well dedicated by instinct to hunt big game and to cattle herding.

Movement
The Fila should have a long reach and elastic gait. His smooth stride reminds you of the great cats movements. His main characteristic is the PACE * a two beat lateral gait in which the legs of each side move back and forth exactly as a pair causing a robing or rocking motion of the dog's body (called the camel s pace) accentuated all along the top line to the tail. During the walk he carries the head lower than the back region. He shows a smooth. free and effortless trot with a powerful stride. He shows a smooth, free and effortless trot with powerful stride. His gallop is powerful with unsuspecting speed coming from such a large and heavy dog. Due to his loose articulations. typical of molossoids, the Fila's movements give the impression, and in fact it is so, of being capable of instant and very rapid changes of Section.

.....

Test of Temperament
It is compulsory to all individuals (after 12 months) in order to obtain a registered championship title. All champions must have a certificate of approval at the temperament test. This sort of test is made at all specialty shows. It Is optional at general shows, up the Judge's will, provided it is public and takes place outside the show ring.

The trail includes:

1. Attack with a stick. The dog is supposed to attack in front of the handler, without being coached, and the exhibitor or handler will remain in his position. It is forbidden to touch or to beat the animal.

2. Shooting test. There will be fired blanks at a distance of 5 meters from the dog, the dog should express attention, show self*confidence and self assurance.

1.

During a performance in the ring the judge will analyze the behavior and temperament of the specimen, paying attention to his expression. During the temperament test the following should be observed
1.

the dislike of the animal to strangers
2.

the self*assurance, courage, determination and braveness of each individual.

Faults General
Cryptorchids, or monorchid, use of artificial ways to produce certain effects, albinism, lack of type, etc.

Disqualification's
1. Aggressiveness to his owner.
2. Cowardice.
3. Pink nose.
4. Overshot teeth.
5. Undershot teeth showing the teeth when the mouth is shut.
6. Lack of l (one) canine or l (one) molar. Except the 3rd. one.
7. Blue eyes (porcelain like).
8. Cropped ears or docked tail.
9. A croup lower than the withers.
10. All white dogs, mouse-gray, patches dogs or dapple coat (merle)
11. Under minimum height (65 cms for males 60 cms for bitches)
12. Lack of loose skin.
13. Lack of typical pace.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Oh and in comes jess.. the google queen... lol thanks for finding the standards.

 

[Dizzy]

Oi - google queen - I already posted the comparison the previous page

 

[Laurelin]

Okay, but in my understanding the CAFIB considers the FCI standard the 'watered down' version, correct?

 

[jess2416]

Oh and in comes jess.. the google queen... lol thanks for finding the standards.

your welcome

(FCI/CBKC Breed Standard)

34. Faults:

Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.


1. Cropped ears - eliminating fault
2. Docked Tails - eliminating fault
3. Flesh-colored nose - eliminating fault
4. Undershot bite with teeth visible when the mouth is closed or Undershot bite with teeth visible when the mouth is closed- eliminating fault
5. Lack of 1 canine or 1 molar except the 3rd one - eliminating fault
6. White markings exceeding 1/4th (one fourth) of the body - very serious fault
7. All dogs which are white, mouse-grey, carrying small or large marks; black and tan, blue - eliminating fault
8. Black is permitted - not a fault
9. Slate black seems to be permitted
10. Jet or slate black with white spots seems to be permitted
11. Mouse grey - eliminating fault
12. Blue - eliminating fault
13. Grey with black spots - eliminating fault
14. No comment on mouth gap as a fault
15. Aggressive or overly shy - eliminating fault
16. Although nothing is said about reaction to gunshots it does say apathy and timidity are a very serious fault.

 

[Dizzy]

2. Temperament

Courage, determination and outstanding braveness are part of its characteristics. With its owners and family it is docile, obedient and extremely tolerant with children. Its loyalty is proverbial, insistingly seeking the company of its master.

One of its characteristics is its aloofness towards strangers. It displays a calm disposition, distinctive self-assurance and self-confidence, remaining unperturbed by strange noises or circumstances. An unsurpassed guardian of properties, it also instinctively indulges in big game hunting and cattle herding.


2. Temperament

It is a courageous, determined and daring dog. It does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional tenderness to its owners and family. Consequently, it is an unsurpassed watch dog in the cities, and an excellent herding dog and a hunter of big animals on farms. As a result of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament. At temperament tests, obligatory for dogs over one year old at shows, the Fila attack must be in an ascending diagonal, in front of handler and without showing dependence from him.

The 2 standards side by side.

What do you think of the "attack" part?

Good/bad?

Is that fila temperament? Would you encourage that?

I would like to know - I am coming at this from a country where they are banned - we don't get to see them, I'll never meet one so I need people who have to tell me.

 

[jess2416]

Oi - google queen - I already posted the comparison the previous page

no you didnt you posted one part of it

I was just posting the website that showed both of them, side by side